Northwold wrote: »

Lots of comments lately about inflation and how the vast majority of traders end up posting goods for sale at the same price.

These threads are not about inflation or pricing in general. They are about the prices for a handful of high demand goods that mostly boil down to upgrade materials.
The players that open these threads are not concerned about the player economy. They are simply complaining that the prices players ask for these high demand goods are higher than the prices they are willing to pay. They dont want to farm these items themselves and they dont want to earn the gold to buy them. They make up some conspiracy theories how traders control the market and how they are getting all the cheap offers for resell. Their only goal is to get something somehow in place to get these items cheaper without realizing that there is no reason for players to sell items cheaper to them. After all why should i reduce prices on goods i spend time on aquiring just to help out some lazy ppl?

If players want to rely on the player market for their needs they have to learn that other players dont spend their time on aquiring things just to sell them cheap to players that think doing a daily a day should get them the money to save the time on farming.

"The players that open these threads are not concerned about the player economy. They are simply complaining that the prices players ask for these high demand goods are higher than the prices they are willing to pay. They dont want to farm these items themselves and they dont want to earn the gold to buy them. They make up some conspiracy theories how traders control the market and how they are getting all the cheap offers for resell. Their only goal is to get something somehow in place to get these items cheaper without realizing that there is no reason for players to sell items cheaper to them. After all why should i reduce prices on goods i spend time on aquiring just to help out some lazy ppl?"

"If players want to rely on the player market for their needs they have to learn that other players dont spend their time on aquiring things just to sell them cheap to players that think doing a daily a day should get them the money to save the time on farming."

Ultimately, where these kinds of arguments lead is: enjoy your clique.

But an MMO can't run on a clique.

People can adopt the attitude that it's "lazy" not to want to spend one's entire non-work life living in a computer game. I'm not sure where that sort of sneering language gets anyone. It's a game. But if the computer game is increasingly not fun for a large number of players because things like prices *are* rising and the acquisition of materials *is* becoming more ridiculous and time consuming compared to what they are needed for, then you will ultimately see people abandon the game. The balance is out of whack.

Northwold wrote: »

Ultimately, where these kinds of arguments lead is: enjoy your clique.

But an MMO can't run on a clique.

People can adopt the attitude that it's "lazy" not to want to spend one's entire non-work life living in a computer game. I'm not sure where that sort of sneering language gets anyone. It's a game. But if the computer game is increasingly not fun for a large number of players because things like prices *are* rising and the acquisition of materials *is* becoming more ridiculous and time consuming compared to what they are needed for, then you will ultimately see people abandon the game. The balance is out of whack.

The situation has nothing to do with spending your entire non-work life in a game. Its players that have a goal and they expect to reach it with very little efford. Since they have to put in more efford now than they are willing to put into, they try to somehow force other players into a situation where they support this playstyle if they like it or not.
We are effectively in a position where someone farms and provides goods and someone else tells them that they have to sell it cheaper to them because they are not willing to spend time to compensate them. Its like going to a car dealer and tell them they have to sell the car to you for 50% of the price because you dont want to work for the money needed.

There is a simple choice. Players can either spend the time to farm themselves or they can pay others to do it for them. The player market is nothing else than paying a player to farm something for you. If you want to farm the items yourself than you spend the same time you did years ago. In cases of resources the green CP may even reduce the time needed.

If someone is not willing to farm, but also not willing to propperly compensate other players for their time than they have to rethink their goals because they dont fit their playstyle.

jaws343 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

"The players that open these threads are not concerned about the player economy. They are simply complaining that the prices players ask for these high demand goods are higher than the prices they are willing to pay. They dont want to farm these items themselves and they dont want to earn the gold to buy them. They make up some conspiracy theories how traders control the market and how they are getting all the cheap offers for resell. Their only goal is to get something somehow in place to get these items cheaper without realizing that there is no reason for players to sell items cheaper to them. After all why should i reduce prices on goods i spend time on aquiring just to help out some lazy ppl?"

"If players want to rely on the player market for their needs they have to learn that other players dont spend their time on aquiring things just to sell them cheap to players that think doing a daily a day should get them the money to save the time on farming."

Ultimately, where these kinds of arguments lead is: enjoy your clique.

But an MMO can't run on a clique.

People can adopt the attitude that it's "lazy" not to want to spend one's entire non-work life living in a computer game. I'm not sure where that sort of sneering language gets anyone. It's a game. But if the computer game is increasingly not fun for a large number of players because things like prices *are* rising and the acquisition of materials *is* becoming more ridiculous and time consuming compared to what they are needed for, then you will ultimately see people abandon the game. The balance is out of whack.

The problem is, the only solutions that are thrown around are geared towards ruining a part of the game a portion of the playerbase likes, namely trading, to benefit players who want to do another portion of the game, housing for example, without putting in the same level of effort in the trading game.

Trading, and playing the player markets, is a legitimate route of gameplay for the game. And the value of items is absolutely determined by the seller of those items and how much they value their time spent acquiring those items to sell. You can't have it both ways, you can't say your time is too valuable to spend grinding for materials for housing and then also say that the players selling those items time is worthless because they aren't selling the items at a price you like. That's absurd. Pay the price players who sell items are charging, or go get the items yourself.

Trading via the guild stores was intended to allow price competition. Whether you blame it on flipping, tamriel trade centre, or whatever, price competition is plain not happening and prices just keep going up. Now, if people see flipping (or whatever) as an important game mechanic, that's their right. But the way the economy has developed on PC is now having an appreciable impact on the way the game plays for other players, too.

As I've mentioned in other replies on here, flipping is not the only element in this problem. There are a whole load of factors that are contributing, both directly to do with the economy and not (eg ZOS attaching ever more ridiculous materials requirements to furnishing plans, associated with materials that have laughable drop rates or which are literally unobtainable except by doing dailies, so that you would need to repeat them on a number of characters if you need any significant volume; even the green champion points tree changes which feel so wrong headed -- transforming quality of life passives into limited number skills that have to be chosen between -- that you have to wonder if anyone considered what a negative impact they would have on normal gameplay). But the balance feels, now, increasingly off for people who are not diehards.

ESO has probably one of the more unusual player bases for an MMO in that it would appear that there are a lot of casual players and, indeed, a lot of players who play the game solo, alongside those who participate in the social side. And some mechanics of the game can cater pretty much exclusively to such less social players by design (and indeed are chargeable in real world money -- notably housing), just as some mechanics cater exclusively to social play.

But just as the PVP only players complain that the PvP elements are feeling increasingly off, so too are the casual gameplay elements. The balance of resources and economy are not the same as they were even a couple of years ago and are turning the game into a pure grindfest.

No one solution is likely to fix this, but it is, as I say, getting out of whack. And if ZOS's intent is simply to push people ever harder towards the crown store, I can't see how that ends well because it will leave a nasty taste in everyone's mouth.

Northwold wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

"The players that open these threads are not concerned about the player economy. They are simply complaining that the prices players ask for these high demand goods are higher than the prices they are willing to pay. They dont want to farm these items themselves and they dont want to earn the gold to buy them. They make up some conspiracy theories how traders control the market and how they are getting all the cheap offers for resell. Their only goal is to get something somehow in place to get these items cheaper without realizing that there is no reason for players to sell items cheaper to them. After all why should i reduce prices on goods i spend time on aquiring just to help out some lazy ppl?"

"If players want to rely on the player market for their needs they have to learn that other players dont spend their time on aquiring things just to sell them cheap to players that think doing a daily a day should get them the money to save the time on farming."

Ultimately, where these kinds of arguments lead is: enjoy your clique.

But an MMO can't run on a clique.

People can adopt the attitude that it's "lazy" not to want to spend one's entire non-work life living in a computer game. I'm not sure where that sort of sneering language gets anyone. It's a game. But if the computer game is increasingly not fun for a large number of players because things like prices *are* rising and the acquisition of materials *is* becoming more ridiculous and time consuming compared to what they are needed for, then you will ultimately see people abandon the game. The balance is out of whack.

The problem is, the only solutions that are thrown around are geared towards ruining a part of the game a portion of the playerbase likes, namely trading, to benefit players who want to do another portion of the game, housing for example, without putting in the same level of effort in the trading game.

Trading, and playing the player markets, is a legitimate route of gameplay for the game. And the value of items is absolutely determined by the seller of those items and how much they value their time spent acquiring those items to sell. You can't have it both ways, you can't say your time is too valuable to spend grinding for materials for housing and then also say that the players selling those items time is worthless because they aren't selling the items at a price you like. That's absurd. Pay the price players who sell items are charging, or go get the items yourself.

Trading via the guild stores was intended to allow price competition. Whether you blame it on flipping, tamriel trade centre, or whatever, price competition is plain not happening and prices just keep going up. Now, if people see flipping (or whatever) as an important game mechanic, that's their right. But the way the economy has developed on PC is now having an appreciable impact on the way the game plays for other players, too.

As I've mentioned in other replies on here, flipping is not the only element in this problem. There are a whole load of factors that are contributing, both directly to do with the economy and not (eg ZOS attaching ever more ridiculous materials requirements to furnishing plans, associated with materials that have laughable drop rates or which are literally unobtainable except by doing dailies, so that you would need to repeat them on a number of characters if you need any significant volume; even the green champion points tree changes which feel so wrong headed -- transforming quality of life passives into limited number skills that have to be chosen between -- that you have to wonder if anyone considered what a negative impact they would have on normal gameplay). But the balance feels, now, increasingly off for people who are not diehards.

ESO has probably one of the more unusual player bases for an MMO in that it would appear that there are a lot of casual players and, indeed, a lot of players who play the game solo, alongside those who participate in the social side. And some mechanics of the game can cater pretty much exclusively to such less social players by design (and indeed are chargeable in real world money -- notably housing), just as some mechanics cater exclusively to social play.

But just as the PVP only players complain that the PvP elements are feeling increasingly off, so too are the casual gameplay elements. The balance of resources and economy are not the same as they were even a couple of years ago and are turning the game into a pure grindfest.

No one solution is likely to fix this, but it is, as I say, getting out of whack. And if ZOS's intent is simply to push people ever harder towards the crown store, I can't see how that ends well because it will leave a nasty taste in everyone's mouth.

So again, it comes down to wanting to limit the trading community in this game because casual players want to build a chair in their house and instead of farming the materials themselves because they don't like the price that players who did farm these materials are charging. Frankly, really don't care what a casual player wants to do when it comes to player trading. You know, when I started, and I am sure when most people start, they tend to be in the casual classification. I used to sell gold improvement mats to the NPC vendor because I had no idea what I was doing. And then I learned and became more invested in the game and decided to learn how to effectively sell with guild vendors. Nothing is stopping players from doing that right now, and being "casual" is no excuse.

And I'll still point to the fact that pricing steadily increasing is solely a PC problem and that any fluctuations on the console markets typically follow standard patch and event scheduling. Basically, I would be adamantly opposed to any changes to impacted the base game for all platforms. You can't cull flipping without ruining the console markets. You can't limit listing prices without ruining the console markets. You can't cut off gold supplies without crippling the console economy.

And I'll reiterate, this is a PC problem. So trying to "fix" the games trading system for an issue isolated to a single platform is ridiculous.

I think this would have the opposite effect of what you are after.
Price goes up or down because of demand.
If prices are going up as much as they are, it is because people want that thing.
What you are proposing would not affect the demand, but only the supply. Thus, by restricting how soon you can sell something, you would cause prices to go up even more.

Northwold wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

"The players that open these threads are not concerned about the player economy. They are simply complaining that the prices players ask for these high demand goods are higher than the prices they are willing to pay. They dont want to farm these items themselves and they dont want to earn the gold to buy them. They make up some conspiracy theories how traders control the market and how they are getting all the cheap offers for resell. Their only goal is to get something somehow in place to get these items cheaper without realizing that there is no reason for players to sell items cheaper to them. After all why should i reduce prices on goods i spend time on aquiring just to help out some lazy ppl?"

"If players want to rely on the player market for their needs they have to learn that other players dont spend their time on aquiring things just to sell them cheap to players that think doing a daily a day should get them the money to save the time on farming."

Ultimately, where these kinds of arguments lead is: enjoy your clique.

But an MMO can't run on a clique.

People can adopt the attitude that it's "lazy" not to want to spend one's entire non-work life living in a computer game. I'm not sure where that sort of sneering language gets anyone. It's a game. But if the computer game is increasingly not fun for a large number of players because things like prices *are* rising and the acquisition of materials *is* becoming more ridiculous and time consuming compared to what they are needed for, then you will ultimately see people abandon the game. The balance is out of whack.

The problem is, the only solutions that are thrown around are geared towards ruining a part of the game a portion of the playerbase likes, namely trading, to benefit players who want to do another portion of the game, housing for example, without putting in the same level of effort in the trading game.

Trading, and playing the player markets, is a legitimate route of gameplay for the game. And the value of items is absolutely determined by the seller of those items and how much they value their time spent acquiring those items to sell. You can't have it both ways, you can't say your time is too valuable to spend grinding for materials for housing and then also say that the players selling those items time is worthless because they aren't selling the items at a price you like. That's absurd. Pay the price players who sell items are charging, or go get the items yourself.

Trading via the guild stores was intended to allow price competition. Whether you blame it on flipping, tamriel trade centre, or whatever, price competition is plain not happening and prices just keep going up. Now, if people see flipping (or whatever) as an important game mechanic, that's their right. But the way the economy has developed on PC is now having an appreciable impact on the way the game plays for other players, too.

As I've mentioned in other replies on here, flipping is not the only element in this problem. There are a whole load of factors that are contributing, both directly to do with the economy and not (eg ZOS attaching ever more ridiculous materials requirements to furnishing plans, associated with materials that have laughable drop rates or which are literally unobtainable except by doing dailies, so that you would need to repeat them on a number of characters if you need any significant volume; even the green champion points tree changes which feel so wrong headed -- transforming quality of life passives into limited number skills that have to be chosen between -- that you have to wonder if anyone considered what a negative impact they would have on normal gameplay). But the balance feels, now, increasingly off for people who are not diehards.

ESO has probably one of the more unusual player bases for an MMO in that it would appear that there are a lot of casual players and, indeed, a lot of players who play the game solo, alongside those who participate in the social side. And some mechanics of the game can cater pretty much exclusively to such less social players by design (and indeed are chargeable in real world money -- notably housing), just as some mechanics cater exclusively to social play.

But just as the PVP only players complain that the PvP elements are feeling increasingly off, so too are the casual gameplay elements. The balance of resources and economy are not the same as they were even a couple of years ago and are turning the game into a pure grindfest.

No one solution is likely to fix this, but it is, as I say, getting out of whack. And if ZOS's intent is simply to push people ever harder towards the crown store, I can't see how that ends well because it will leave a nasty taste in everyone's mouth.

Price competition is working well and if you look at graphs and sales from guilds you can see that it does. Prices for high demand goods constantly go up and down depending on how much is sold vs how much gets offered. They change daily based on that. If i look at my sales data from the last 30 days i can see my dreugh wax sales to bounce between 19.999 and 21.999 back and forth mutliple times. To see bigger price dips you would need supply to exceed demand, thats whats happening with motifs get released and results in them becomming cheaper and cheaper over a couple of weeks as supply piles up in the traders. Same goes for event styles and motifs. If items constantly sell for given prices there is no reason to drop prices. Just because the result is not what you want it to be does not mean that the system is not working.

Material requirements are the same for everyone. You might not like them, you dont have to, but if you want some things you have to put efford into getting it either by farming the materials or buy farming the gold to aquire them. Complaining that the efford is to high but expecting others to do the efford and then supply you cheaply is not going to work. It implies that you think your play time is more important than the time of the player that you expect supplying you.