Restoring price competition -- ban resale of goods for 30 days?

silvereyes · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I agree. The ESO economy wasn't designed to include flipping and I am quite positive that ZOS never even considered that activity when they implemented trading

They also probably didn't consider TTC that makes it super easy for flippers to find the cheap items to buy and resell.

It also makes it super easy for non-flippers to find the item they are looking for. It also makes it super easy for sellers to do market research to find the median price they should sell at.

I don't understand this argument at all. How would reducing pricing information help the flipping problem? All I see that doing is making the market less efficient.

If there is a centralised database of price and, as a result, little variation in pricing, then you might as well have an auction house and an auction house would be significantly easier to use is, i think, the point being made. And it is a very valid one. If part of the reasoning for using individual guild spots was to ensure price competition, the effect of TTC, by introducing price transparency, has been to eliminate price competition and ensure price following behaviours across every guild trader.

Northwold wrote: »

You will never find a bargain if people are scouring the listings on an industrial scale

Fair enough. The guild kiosk system was specifically designed to combat that sort of industrialization of flipping and make it cumbersome. To a degree, it still succeeds by making it impossible to automate; players still need to run to the kiosk. But TTC still probably makes it a little too efficient, especially for low supply items.

The ironic thing is, I remember when TTC first came out, there was a pretty big backlash in the trader community against it, mainly by flippers. Bargain shopping was their thing, and they didn't want every good deal to be flash-mobbed by people who didn't put in the work.

Spiral__Architect · February 2022

Not pleased with gold cost on traders? Go get it yourself.

Araneae6537 · February 2022

silvereyes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I agree. The ESO economy wasn't designed to include flipping and I am quite positive that ZOS never even considered that activity when they implemented trading

They also probably didn't consider TTC that makes it super easy for flippers to find the cheap items to buy and resell.

It also makes it super easy for non-flippers to find the item they are looking for. It also makes it super easy for sellers to do market research to find the median price they should sell at.

I don't understand this argument at all. How would reducing pricing information help the flipping problem? All I see that doing is making the market less efficient.

Amottica wrote: »

AJones43865 wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

There are a whole load of people who play ESO as an economics and trading game so that would go down about as well as fixing the oversupply by say disabling crafting writs for a month, or removing quest rewards.

The people "playing the market" in ESO should find a different game that is designed for that kind of gaming. Engaging in the activity in ESO hurts everyone trying to play the game how it was designed.

The game seems very much designed for it since players that take their time to find deals are players that purchase items in out-of-the-way traders and bring them to the more robust markets. That is performing a great service to people who use those out-of-the-way traders.

It is also an assumption this activity is causing notable inflation vs something that is one-off. Heck, a number of posts in this thread have pointed out the real negative effects this suggestion would have on the game.

Agreed 100%! I very rarely flip items but am happy for others to do so as when I post something on an out-of-the-way trader, I just want someone to find and buy it. If they go on to make more gold from the item, good for them — I’m still happy I made the sale.

If you think xyz is too expensive, then go out and farm it yourself. Don’t ask ZOS to ruin the game for people who like play the market (which is just as valid as any other activity in game) and will just reduce the supply anyway.

StevieKingslayer · February 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Don't buy overpriced items and the prices will go down.

SilverBride and I rarely agree. We 100% agree on this. Its simple logic. If the market is buying stuff ridiculously priced because they need it "right now" then it's your own fault. Legitimately, there was a forum post here screaming about daedra hearts a while back. Daedra hearts drop all over the place in the base dungeons, can just farm them up on normal instead of paying 3k+ per for one. There are add on's to help, you can even ask your guildies for price checks. So many ways to avoid it paying high prices.

I personally, run Clockwork Citrus, I also, hate fishing. Perfect roe is around 45-55k per on PC NA rn. I buy the food in bulk, for a ridiculous cost because thats how much I hate fishing. And I should pay that cost...because I dont want to do the activity, and therefore I am paying for someone elses labour who did that, so I can have my food.

Farming is overall down at from bots being kicked (still see some, but honestly its not as bad as it used to be). I think some players need to realize this is kind of like, real life in the sense you sometimes have to do things you dont want to do in order to save money.

The solution proposed is just plain ridiculous imo. You cant ban people from selling stuff for 30 days, I looted that, I want to sell that. Im not having it take my inventory space because people cant go pick some flowers themselves or something instead of paying ridiculous prices.

StevieKingslayer · February 2022

And in regards to the motif argument. I make the majority of my money farming the dungeon motifs. If you dont DO the dungeon, then you SHOULD have to pay for it. I dont do AD or DC pvp, and I PAY for those motifs because thats an activity I DONT do. I don't do the daily quests, so I buy those motifs off those players that do.

All the new dlc dungeons drop 2 motifs on Hardmode. I farmed my waking flame motif entirely in one day when it dropped. It was really easy. A little more playing the game and a little less feeling sorry for ourselves gets us a heck of a lot further. I always underlist my motifs to try drive prices down. The new Cellar chest motif is being listed at over 1mil in some places. Im selling them for 800k to try drive prices down for the crafters and collectors. I know a few others that do that as well. We arent all greedy, but we did put in that time and effort to do the HM's multiple times to get the extra drops, so we should get something when people are too scared to even go into the dungeons.

method__01 · February 2022

the item should become bound after you bought it from trader

at least do this and stop flip floppers,the rest with timer etc arent solutions cause after time pass.item will be relisted

now,you dont like the item and want to sell it back?why you bought it ?

Sylvermynx · February 2022

method__01 wrote: »

the item should become bound after you bought it from trader

at least do this and stop flip floppers,the rest with timer etc arent solutions cause after time pass.item will be relisted

now,you dont like the item and want to sell it back?why you bought it ?

Well, as fast as sets and combat change, that's - kind of a bad look....

[ETA: I don't have a horse in this race, but I know people who do. I don't belong to guilds or sell stuff through them. But it's pretty obvious that you can buy an item before a patch the next day, and after the patch, the item is useless unless you can sell it....]

AinSoph · February 2022

On one hand: "Wow, Chromium Plating is almost 1/3 of a mil."

On the other hand: "Wow, easiest 3mil I've ever made."

At some point, you just gotta realize you need to put in some more effort and this is just how it is.

method__01 · February 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, as fast as sets and combat change, that's - kind of a bad look....

[ETA: I don't have a horse in this race, but I know people who do. I don't belong to guilds or sell stuff through them. But it's pretty obvious that you can buy an item before a patch the next day, and after the patch, the item is useless unless you can sell it....]

it cant be worst than seeing X item at trader listed for XXX gold and return after 1 hour to found out that item was gone but "lucky you its now available" to another trader but x5 XXX
how's this?

also no guilds or trading here,i sell nothing to no1

Amottica · February 2022

newtinmpls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Don't buy overpriced items and the prices will go down.

You are so wild to think that folks would listen to [pause for emphasis] actual LOGIC

I totally agree.

The price of an item is what two people agree to. The price an item is listed for is relevant only if someone else chooses to pay that price. Everyone makes up their own mind.

silvereyes · February 2022

method__01 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, as fast as sets and combat change, that's - kind of a bad look....

[ETA: I don't have a horse in this race, but I know people who do. I don't belong to guilds or sell stuff through them. But it's pretty obvious that you can buy an item before a patch the next day, and after the patch, the item is useless unless you can sell it....]

it cant be worst than seeing X item at trader listed for XXX gold and return after 1 hour to found out that item was gone but "lucky you its now available" to another trader but x5 XXX
how's this?

EvilAutoTech · February 2022

The idea that a 30 day hold on items bought at a trader will alleviate this problem is just wrong. If the timer starts at purchase, you just leave the item in your mail until the timer expires. Whereas, if the timer starts when you retrieve the item from your mail, mule characters can hold it until the timer expires and then list it.

Also, as has been stated, people wouldn't continue asking prices that aren't being paid be someone.

Edit due to random floating S syndrome.

method__01 · February 2022

silvereyes wrote: »

i only buy some plans or motifs nowdays,i farm years and got a lot of stuff plus tons of mats and surveys (packs of 30-50 which i proly never do) im a big hoarder and cause i play many hours, i miss nothing
so no need to rush for anything.....but i get pissed when a blue plan that sells for 20 suddenly sells for 80
so my opinion is the same: bound the items and stop reselling kick those market manipulators out of game or/and
make them pay cash to buy goods
over and out

Amottica · February 2022

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

The idea that a 30 day hold on items bought at a trader will alleviate this problem is just wrong. If the timer starts at purchase, you just leave the item in your mail until the timer expires. Whereas, if the timer starts when you retrieve the item from your mail, mule characters can hold it until the timer expires and then list it.

Also, as has been stated, people wouldn't continue asking prices that aren't being paid be someone.

Edit due to random floating S syndrome.

People ask prices that are heavily inflated in MMORPGs all the time. They seem to hope they will get lucky and someone buys it. Heck, players buy items from NPC vendors and sell them for higher prices for the very same reason.

As such, there is no reason to think the idea will do anything concerning inflation and merely annoy players.

The suggestion is also anti-social. I have known guildmates/friends who have helped search vendors for items. With this suggestion, they will be of little help since they cannot purchase the item once they find it. They have to hope it is still there when their friend gets back online. Otherwise, they have wasted their time because of this lockout.

This can be added to what is becoming a long list of reasons the suggestion is not good for the game.

Northwold · February 2022

silvereyes wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

One of the biggest issues with this sort of "game the market" behaviour is it means price competition does not happen

You seriously think that flippers are not subject to price competition?

To quote the earlier motifs example, do you really think that guy listing all motifs at high prices would continue to do so if they sat unbought for 1.5 months? No, people must be buying them at those prices, or he would stop. In which case, that's the market price at the moment.

Sorry, but this is the natural byproduct an efficient free trade system. The prices are set by what people are willing to pay, and those who have invested the most and play the longest will have more resources to pay with.

This isn't the natural product of an efficient free trade system. It's the natural product, in the real world, of oligopolistic markets where no one competes on price. And because they do not compete on price, the argument that demand will fix it does not work. If people have no choice but to pay those prices because no one departs from them, those are the prices they will pay.

kargen27 · February 2022

method__01 wrote: »

the item should become bound after you bought it from trader

at least do this and stop flip floppers,the rest with timer etc arent solutions cause after time pass.item will be relisted

now,you dont like the item and want to sell it back?why you bought it ?

Sometimes I know a guild mate is looking for a specific recipe or piece of armor and I find it listed somewhere. I purchase the item and send it to my guild mate. That's why I bought it and why I don't want it bound.

bmnoble · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

One of the biggest issues with this sort of "game the market" behaviour is it means price competition does not happen

You seriously think that flippers are not subject to price competition?

To quote the earlier motifs example, do you really think that guy listing all motifs at high prices would continue to do so if they sat unbought for 1.5 months? No, people must be buying them at those prices, or he would stop. In which case, that's the market price at the moment.

Sorry, but this is the natural byproduct an efficient free trade system. The prices are set by what people are willing to pay, and those who have invested the most and play the longest will have more resources to pay with.

This isn't the natural product of an efficient free trade system. It's the natural product, in the real world, of oligopolistic markets where no one competes on price. And because they do not compete on price, the argument that demand will fix it does not work. If people have no choice but to pay those prices because no one departs from them, those are the prices they will pay.

You do have a choice though, farm the items your after yourself for the cost of your time, like the first person to list the items did before re sellers might have gotten their hands on it. If you don't want to spend your time farming then use your gold not much else you can do.

silvereyes · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

If people have no choice but to pay those prices because no one departs from them, those are the prices they will pay.

That is an absolutely false statement. These are not necessities for anyone, the items are available for anyone to earn in-game, and nobody will pay for prices that they literally don't have the gold for.

The problem here is that there are plenty of people who do have the gold, and for supply-constrained items like rare gear and rarish motifs, it's a seller's market.

This isn't a problem when supply is high enough. If all the big spenders are sated, and there's supply left over, the prices will fall down to where the next tier of buyers is willing / able to afford it. If they don't, they will not be bought, period.

deleted220614-000183 · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

So what do people think of banning resale of an item bought in a guild store for, say, 30 days, to try to discourage this and improve price competition?

I think that any rule will not work as any rule will be bypassed sooner or later.
Banning selling something is generally very bad idea because you never know when you run out of gold and it may happen that you would need 50millions here and now and your stuff on one month cooldown will not help you much.

Apparently if this rule would be introduced, we would have many shouts like selling gold mats without cooldown for 110 percent of the price in the shops.

I'm pretty sure a lot of player would base their bussines on shouting and bypasing cooldowns which is perfectly opposite you wanted to achieve.

Skinfaxe_DK · February 2022

I agree with a lot of points made in this thread.
I don't mind the way the market operates as such, but the market (on PC especially) is much easier to "play" by listing, registering, delisting, flipping etc.

I personally think that the listing fee should be increased and the listing time should be reduced (to 10 days perhaps).

That way prices would have a healthier range between "cheap" and "normal" and scalpers would need a larger price gap to make it worth their while.

The "normal" selling price would also need to be a bit more competitive as the market would encourage successfully selling an item rather than "privatising" the market for an extended period. If you want to sell at competitive prices you'd have to take a bit more risk.

Overall I think that scalping (or flipping items) would be reduced somewhat and a larger part of overall purchases would be for consumption (not relisting), thus better reflecting a supply and demand market.

I also think that the daily writs and associated rewards should be significantly reduced in a way that discourage "running a writ factory" generating gold out of thin air (which is too easy to do on PC). You see this even remotely on consoles.

Perhaps limit writs to a maximum of say 3 pr. account (similar to other dailies in a fashion) and, after performing writs on your first character, the rewards are reduced by healthy amount.

This shouldn't hurt newer players too much.

Sure, the overall supply of materials will also be reduced as a result, but the supply isn't so much the problem - I can purchase all the chromium plating I'd ever need - but they are being sold and relisted for the most part, effectively privatising the market to the really wealthy or really desperate (which is much too easy to do on PC).

ApoAlaia · February 2022

I personally don't see the problem.

I see the increase in price of certain items over time, but fail to see why this is an issue.

First and foremost, this is 'the way the game is meant to be played'. The developers set the 'rarity' of the items, not us.

Furthermore the majority of items that have seen a dramatic increase over time fall in two categories:

- Furniture and cosmetics. ZOS sets the rate at which these can be acquired and the player base sets the price they are prepared to pay for them.
- Gold 'tempers', mostly purple/gold platings and wax. Same as above.

There is more gold in circulation but again this is by design, ZOS sets the rate at which gold can be accrued, you cannot exceed that limit without methods that would violate the TOS; you can only determine what rate is achievable within the given framework for yourself. In other words, what activities in the game you prioritise in your allocated gaming time, activities that generate wealth or activities that reward you in ways that do not directly generate wealth.

When I see threads like these what I read between the lines is that there is a portion of the player base that simply does not want to engage on farming/acquiring wealth themselves - which is something perfectly achievable and not limited to a 'chosen few', the tools are available for any player to make use of - but want to dictate at what prices they would like to acquire what they want/need from others so they can carry on as they were.

That, convenient as it may appear to them, is very unlikely to happen.

I personally don't want to be the purveyor of services and goods to other players within a framework of their choosing.

deleted220614-000183 · February 2022

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I personally don't see the problem.

I see the increase in price of certain items over time, but fail to see why this is an issue.

As I already wrote, inflation is a huge issue mainly for long term players with some savings in golds in a bank.
It is not very funny to spent hal of the game time just trying to buy gold mats for decent price in golds just to protect myself from the inflation whichis 300 percent+ per year on PC EU platform.
Now golden mats are working as unoficiall currency on PC EU as golds are losing value so fast.

I know that developers are lazy and they don't bother to separate rules for writs on console / PC but running automated writs on PC and create tons of easy golds daily is something that is really a big issue.
It is not affecting richplayers too much as they tend to spent on very rare/collectible/hard to obtain thingswich are increasing the value (for example shivering cheese was around 300k a year ago now 1,8M so it is "only" 6 times more expensive).

The richest ppl and flip floppers are in reality profitting from the inflation.
New players have not any savings yet so they are not at least badly affected.
Now show me some "typical" middleclass player, who has not nearly any golds but 100 shivering cheeses and 1000 chromium platings in the bank... lol.

Tra_Lalan · February 2022

I thought that ESO is all about "Play as you like". But this here is just another topic saying "ban other peoples activities that I don't like, dont care if that is how they like to play the game".

I really don't see anything wrong with flipping, with basic rights of economy, with the whole idea of trading and freedom of the market. And don't give me all the "they arent playing tha way the game was designed". ESO was designed with a free market its up to players how they use it.

If you don't know the price of an item, just use TTC or ask a guildie. If you want to be albe to sell items 20% more expensive than their price, just join a trading guild with profitable guild trader location.

Don't dissalow other players success only because you didn't achive your own (or more likely didn't try to do so). That is not a healthy approach to anything.

K9002 · February 2022

It wouldn't do a thing. Economy in ESO is cyclic, tied to the event calendar and also affected by quarterly major updates. Flippers buy up things for cheap when they're briefly in abundant supply and sit on them for many months, waiting for the prices to go up. Crafting mats - thanks to the PTS we know 6 weeks ahead of a new DLC what the new sets are going to be. If there's any new non-mythic must have, flippers can start stocking up on purple and gold tempering mats more than a month in advance. People who play the market game are playing it long term, much like investors.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2022

Simple solution to reduce the amount of gold in the game is add a soft cap for gold, if you go over it you will be taxed of your gold once per day on that account until you go below the soft cap, most will not be effected, those who do get effected are likely the ones responsible for the inflation.

Currently the maximum gold you can is somewhere above 2,000,000,000, way too much gold for any one player, make the soft cap something like 99,999,999, high enough that most players will not be effected, going above it would give you the "Too Rich" penalty where you will lose 1% of it everyday until your go below the soft cap, someone with a billion gold for instance would lose 10,000,000 gold per day, unless they can make more then that everyday they will be in a losing battle.

O_LYKOS · February 2022

So just to clarify, if an item is for sale for 10k but I post one for 7k. Someone will buy said item and then resell it for 10k. I'm not understanding where the problem is. In the end its still going up for sale at the current going rate, I'm just getting my money quicker.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2022

O_LYKOS wrote: »

So just to clarify, if an item is for sale for 10k but I post one for 7k. Someone will buy said item and then resell it for 10k. I'm not understanding where the problem is. In the end its still going up for sale at the current going rate, I'm just getting my money quicker.

But when they buy hundreds of the item they can price that 10k item at 11k and since they listed so many that becomes the average value and there are hundreds of players doing this, then that 11k item becomes 12k and then 13k and so on so fourth until that item which once costed 10k now costs you 30k

Hand_Bacon · February 2022

The only thing you can be sure of is a whole slew of unintended consequences. Some of which would make the perceived problem you seek to remedy, worse.

O_LYKOS · February 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

O_LYKOS wrote: »

So just to clarify, if an item is for sale for 10k but I post one for 7k. Someone will buy said item and then resell it for 10k. I'm not understanding where the problem is. In the end its still going up for sale at the current going rate, I'm just getting my money quicker.

But when they buy hundreds of the item they can price that 10k item at 11k and since they listed so many that becomes the average value and there are hundreds of players doing this, then that 11k item becomes 12k and then 13k and so on so fourth until that item which once costed 10k now costs you 30k

I see, so basically buying all of one item and effectivelly resetting the going rate as they see fit as they relist it. Ive seen this a lot on ffxiv. People would buy a bunch of 50k items and repost for 100k because theyve bought out all the competition.

Lysette · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

That is absurd, would needlessly create new problems in inventory tracking and more, and anyway, would have a net effect of raising prices.

Why would it raise prices? The whole point is to foul up people's inventories so they stop doing this.

they would just strip the market of items, which are popular, during the 30 days ban - and when the 30 days are over, enjoy the high demand for it and sell it even higher priced than ever before. Small amounts each time, with higher and higher prices - to cause a run on the items.

The housing market in real life is a quite good example how it works - 30,40,50% gains per year lately - caused a run on housing and people are afraid to not be able to get it, if they don't buy it now - making it even worse. and worth more for the sellers - this is much like it would be if you hinder them selling, they will first cause a shortage and then profit from it by causing a run on it.