Optional AP reward change

Sparxlost · February 2022

Im not an extreme role player but i feel as if Cyrodiil is lacking any real strategy....
I hate that i have to compete at the very start of the campaign with anyone who was also on at the time until i win or lose heart just to get emp, and that is even if our faction does well.. here is what i would suggest.
Faction war is all about prestige and ranking, right?
So obviously everyone in your group would gain more ap for running in the group but only if the group exceeds a certain amount.
You as the leader of the group would get the biggest ap bonus, as you are the one who is expected to make the decisions for the group which would do you well if you make the right ones.
what this changes:
Solo players could never gain emp on their own as they would likely have little reputation
Group players and leaders would always have good reputations because it means that they fight well with others
obviously its easy to have a bad reputation as a group runner and that could put you on a blacklist for most groups in Cyrodiil...
But the main point would be that this change would separate the most pvp hardened groups of players from your common mercs i feel as if the best pvpers would stick together and occasionally pick up new players to compete with the other high ranking groups of their faction to be the most effective or strongest force the faction has at that time..
QUICK RECAP
Group players get more ap gain
Group leaders get most ap gain
Players would learn to pvp strategically as there is incentive to be strong
Its not just the strength of the fighters its the timing and place of the attack.

this could just be unnecessary nonsense but thanks if you did read all that.

Necrotech_Master · February 2022

just wait until end of midyear mayhem, those 7 day camps are usually dead and the bar to get emp is like 200k AP (since they sometimes reset right before or after end of event)

i know ive cheesed emp twice doing this (and im only a mediocre pvp player lol)

VaranisArano · February 2022

There's an awful lot of strategy in Cyrodiil for the people who play for their faction's score. There's, uh, not a ton of incentive to play for your faction score, since the end of campaign rewards for winning are not great. Players have requested better rewards.

Until then, we'll still see situations where the best guilds on a faction hole up in a side keep and farm AP.

However, the strategy for playing for faction score and the strategy for Emperor pushes is different. I don't know if this is an attempt to make your preferred playstyle better for Emperor pushes. I've never pushed for Emperor myself, but as a PVP guild healer, I've helped push about 15+ guildies to Emperor on Haderus, Trueflame, and Vivec. So here's my take on your idea.

Getting to the top of the leaderboard requires making continuous AP. It requires spending a ton of time in game. Running in or alongside a victorious group is the most efficient way to gain AP, followed by repairing every objective you can get your hands on when the big groups log off and go to bed.

1. Group players/leaders get the most AP

Emperor candidates can't run in a group 24/7. No offense, but their guildies like me want to sleep. Also, nobody wants a PUG leader who's pulling an all-nighter. You know that punch-drunk, overly caffinated attitude of someone who's gotten no sleep while being intensely focused on not missing a single AP tick? Yeah...love my guildies, but until the adrenaline of actually making Emperor hit, they usually weren't in great shape to be coordinating PUGs or even leading our guild raid.

There's reasons why repairing is such an important source of solo AP gain.

As for group leaders: my guild raid leaders made Emperor back when Vet ranks were a thing. They wanted to help their guildies make Emp, not get themselves back on top again.

Also, the guildies who were high on the leaderboards later in the campaigns spent a lot of time in Cyrodiil. Like, hours on a daily basis. I don't know how much time you plan on being in a group or leading one. At my max, I raided for 6-8 hours a week, so all the extra AP in the world from being grouped wasn't going to get me close to the people who play hours a day.

2. PVPers will learn to play strategically for their faction.

I do tend to think that PVP guilds are the best way to learn to play strategically for one's faction, but again, guild membership is no guarantee that your guild will play for the faction as opposed to farming zergs for AP in a back keep, you know?

ZOS killed the big PUG guilds with the group size change anyway.

Also, let's not pretend that making Emperor as a solo player doesn't require a ton of strategy. Most guilds won't tell solo players what they are doing, so you have to be spot on with reading the map and predicting exactly where your faction is going to win next. When we pushed our guildies, we'd see the other frontrunners at the same locations because they correctly predicted where we were fighting. At certain points, we'd try to fake them out to buy our guildie more AP - sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. There's a ton of strategy to getting to the top of the leader board solo, and they don't have a raid of people watching their backs.

Solo Emp also requires a certain willingness to play well with others. You can't be a push-over, but you can't irritate your faction's guilds so much that they won't push for you when the time comes.

So I'll be honest: I don't think these changes accomplish what you want them to do. It doesn't encourage PVP guilds to play for their faction, and it doesn't respect the strategy that Solo Emp pushers are using. Arguably, it makes it even harder to efficiently push for Emperor without a group who's willing to carry someone 24/7.

I can't tell if maybe this is an attempt to make it easier to reach Emperor as a group leader, but if that's your goal, you'll need to work on getting a solid group together who can support you for the start and finish of your push. And you need to play a lot of hours.

Grouped or not, the vast majority of the strategy for Emperor is going to come from your ability to dedicate 2-3+ days to a push, read the map, predict victorious fights, keep the AP rolling in with repairs, work with your faction's guilds, and not give up at 3am in the morning.

Something to think about, anyways.

Sparxlost · February 2022

I dont see any advantage to staying at a side keep as it is literally just a small faction ap bonus and no real map control unless in certain situations
that guild would have a difficult time gaining ap if the enemy saw it as something they couldnt take
you and that group would be better off taking keeps that matter as you would make more ap than "farming" those keeps

1. this change suggested that people who put time into the game and had success would have less work to do to stay ahead of the rest of their faction. so idk why you are talking about spending WAY too much time playing.

So maybe timing is everything and 6-8 isnt enough to stay relevant. but with a change like this then serious gamers would get more sleep and be able to rely more on their guilds and friends rather than people they dont know...

2. If you want to pride yourself on being a defensive general then who cares if you farmed a few zergs? its not like you are going to be emperor any time soon..

As for solo emperor pushing i dont think it should be a thing as it gives you complete freedom to go and farm ap where ever while others are actually working together to achieve things
you dont just show up and take what others work for

this change makes people feel more rewarded for their achievements it doesn't offer any new rewards to the loot table

Ik what you are going to say you cant separate good players from bad players or you cant give group players more rewards than solo players but i honestly dont think its a huge deal as i am a solo player
I used to play for groups but figured i would have more fun playing solo and taking a more scenic route through cyrodiil
if you wanted to know how i would make incentive for solo play in Cyrodiil then you should have asked....

Kwoung · February 2022

Well my first thought would be, ZOS lowered the group size to 12, which sucks. My guild does PVP for DC on NA GH, and there have been many times we had over 12 players, but not enough for a second full group, although we were all following the "crown".. about 18 of us this evening... 12 grouped and 6 solo well because, being solo cuts down astronomically how often you are stuck in combat and can't mount and get to the next objective.

There is nothing wrong with playing solo and no reason I should make less AP than a grouped person. I tagged along this evening solo and had a great time, I also made about 1/4 million AP in 2 hours we played.

I would like to say if you can get ZOS to put groups back up to 24 peeps, I might support your idea, but I know many solo folks, even in my guild (even though we have a fairly strong team) that just like being out there alone, and they should have just a good a chance as anyone who puts in the time and effort.

And quite honestly, most of the time I have made it to the top or close, it was through solo efforts. You can't have a team there 24x7 even if *you* happen to be between jobs atm. This seems more like an idea that rewards PUG generals than someone actually working the map for their faction with a great team.

Amottica · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

Players would learn to pvp strategically as there is incentive to be strong

I did not see anything in the suggestion that would give reason to think it would lead to players learning to PvP strategically. It would only incentivize being in a group and more so, being the leader.

It would merely incentivize people to be leaders so they could get more AP and not because they are good leaders or know what they are doing.

The change is not needed and Cyrodiil will not benefit from it.

Sparxlost · February 2022

Cyrodiil would definitely benefit from it because when people realize that you need good groups with good leaders then exclusive pvp groups would emerge to lead the faction
the strategy is in who you play with at this point because your cyrodiil dream team might be different than someone elses
i think the only people losing are the people who will no longer be carried by the group as if they are with their guild then they would have to learn to more than just tag along for the ride....
guilds will still pvp regardless i doubt it would kill Cyrodiil but it would make it more competitive

Sparxlost · February 2022

Maybe the "group" bonus was a bit much you make a good point if there isnt space left in the group you want to pvp with why should you make less ap....

but i still think there should be some way to create a gap on the leaderboards between serious group pvpers and strict solo pvpers

VaranisArano · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

Maybe the "group" bonus was a bit much you make a good point if there isnt space left in the group you want to pvp with why should you make less ap....

but i still think there should be some way to create a gap on the leaderboards between serious group pvpers and strict solo pvpers

But why do we need that gap?

If a strict solo player is at the top of the leaderboard, then they are fighting at all the important battles for their faction, repairing objectives, and basically playing for their faction. Just not in a group.

It just sounds like telling the strict solo PVPers "Get a group."

Sparxlost · February 2022

yes that is exactly what it is just because they were there doesnt mean anything they didnt collaborate in any way to achieve this goal they just showed up to help
you could recognize them as a helpful person but not as someone who deserves to lead the faction

Amottica · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

Maybe the "group" bonus was a bit much you make a good point if there isnt space left in the group you want to pvp with why should you make less ap....

but i still think there should be some way to create a gap on the leaderboards between serious group pvpers and strict solo pvpers

As someone who run small group with my guild and will run solo when they are not around I do not think it is fair to treat me as a second class player when I am solo.

The suggestion that players who group should be treated better than players who are not grouped sends a message that if you do not want to group up in Cyrodiil you are not important and are less welcome. That does not sound like a great design for a game that wants a large welcome mat.

It certainly doesn't sound like a great plan for a PvP that has lost a lot of its population.

Sparxlost · February 2022

I dont see any part of this change that would make people feel like there "arent welcome" they can still make AP they just wont be high on the leaderboards..
Naturally players who work together to achieve goals should be rewarded for the collaboration....
Players who work alone can still make AP so it wouldn't be a huge deal to anyone other than people who want to exploit their freedom as a solo player to make leaderboard..

Separating the solo play from group play in Cyrodiil in terms of faction standing and emperor would feel better and more realistic as well as promoting strategic plays on the map
(ex. we hired a bomber to our group to go and reduce enemy numbers before an attack on a resource or to steal the keep they were going to take)
then they could focus on extra stuff to do for solo players in Cyrodiil
groups could hire players outside the group to be their eyes and ears around Cyrodiil you know those useless speed/stealth builds?? yeah they could be good for more than just farming materials
idk if making AP a tradable currency would be a good idea but idk

Kwoung · February 2022

The more I think about this thread, the more it hits me as a anti-ganker / bomber thread, many of which I have seen at the top of the boards over the years. And I still disagree with rewarding a particular play style over another. There are a great many players who cannot commit to playing/leading a group due to RL interruptions (those with small children come to mind), but play hard and help the campaign solo when they can focus. There is no reason achieving a goal should be taken from or made near impossible for them.

Sparxlost · February 2022

I disagree
if you dont have time to play then you shouldnt worry about commiting yourself to making leaderboards as a solo magblade bomber

Say you had a spec that was made very obviously to farm groups with sheer burst potential... then as a solo player you could go to where ever the action is to repair keeps get defense/offense ticks and farm resources
Sure its a great way to make ap solo but i dont think it should be rewarded as much as if you were in a group
the problem is that skilled groups will probably follow less skilled groups in order to steal kills and be more efficient where they arent so that they would always be in first place on the leaderboards...

And you implied that you prefer to play solo when you are focused??? It's a preference based on selfishness of freedom and should not be seen as the same amount of usefulness as cooperation towards a goal.

Basically what im saying is that why wouldnt you run in a group if you could??? It would make thinks so much easier and less likely to be exploited by people who only care about the AP they are earning

Amottica · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

Basically what im saying is that why wouldnt you run in a group if you could??? It would make thinks so much easier and less likely to be exploited by people who only care about the AP they are earning

It seems a lot of assumptions are being made here.

I have seen a bad group leader walk their group right into a trap that fed the other group a hefty amount of AP. Right afterward they came back and provided dessert and another course of AP. Talk about leading the lambs to the slaughter.

A solo player that is skilled (and has the build for it) can wipe out an entire group.

So it is a big assumption that the solo player is more likely to be exploited.

Sparxlost wrote: »

Ithen as a solo player you could go to where ever the action is to repair keeps get defense/offense ticks and farm resources
Sure its a great way to make ap solo but i dont think it should be rewarded as much as if you were in a group
the problem is that skilled groups will probably follow less skilled groups in order to steal kills and be more efficient where they arent so that they would always be in first place on the leaderboards...

This is another big assumption that solo players do nothing but earn AP off the back of groups or do little more than repair keeps.

When I am not with my guild group I am solo and taking out reinforcements as they come to a keep we are attacking or defending. I also run the perimeter and take out gankers trying to kill someone on a siege or cutting off their transitus to make it harder to get to the fight. I do this rather than join a zone group to run with a leader that is just out there to farm AP.

It is bad taste to suggest that a player that happens to join any group they can get into is doing more or playing better than someone who plays solo.

It is not a good idea to drive solo players out of Cyrodiil which is exactly what this will do.

Sparxlost · February 2022

That solo player with "the build for it" could have applied themselves to said group to turn the tides in this unlikely scenario and earned more ap and rep with the faction

Sparxlost · February 2022

i think there needs to be different incentive to pvp in cyrodiil as a solo player

VaranisArano · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

i think there needs to be different incentive to pvp in cyrodiil as a solo player

So far, here's what I've heard from your idea:

1. Solo players will make proportionately less AP, and thus are locked out of the gold item rewards from being high on the leaderboards. They'll never make Emperor.

2. Solo players lucky enough to be noticed by guilds despite their lower leaderboard standing (and not rejected as spies, natch) can be hired to do tasks, i.e. the Solo players are still taking orders from the guilds if they want to make more AP.

I'm really not seeing any way this is supposed to appeal to players who like playing Solo. If they wanted to follow orders from a guild leader...they would already be in a guild.

Question: How do you see your gameplay changing if your idea was implemented?

Sparxlost · February 2022

1. solo players will never be emperor is a thing im okay with
2. your standing has nothing to do with your ability to find a guild or make your own, sure after awhile the most effective players in your faction might run in their own group exclusively but that doesnt stop you and others from striving to be the cyrodiil dream team..

I was thinking maybe there would be less use of spies and more use of solo players as scouts in a way you could have them patrol certain areas and relay information based on battles they observe like they could follow a large enemy group and tell you exactly what they are doing at all times??? then you and the fighters can move more confidently and freely
People starting their own groups might want to try recruiting healers or people with better gear and builds overall

I get that cyrodiil is basically non coordinated youre literally just a bunch of mercs senselessly throwing yourselves at each other in the name of one faction and why would you want anything else?
But even mercenaries can fight with sense and the ones that do ought to be rewarded for it..
Maybe this is some pipe dream that prevents me from seeing the harsh reality of what it could do to pvpers but idk id be willing to try

VaranisArano · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

1. solo players will never be emperor is a thing im okay with
2. your standing has nothing to do with your ability to find a guild or make your own, sure after awhile the most effective players in your faction might run in their own group exclusively but that doesnt stop you and others from striving to be the cyrodiil dream team..

I was thinking maybe there would be less use of spies and more use of solo players as scouts in a way you could have them patrol certain areas and relay information based on battles they observe like they could follow a large enemy group and tell you exactly what they are doing at all times??? then you and the fighters can move more confidently and freely
People starting their own groups might want to try recruiting healers or people with better gear and builds overall

I get that cyrodiil is basically non coordinated youre literally just a bunch of mercs senselessly throwing yourselves at each other in the name of one faction and why would you want anything else?
But even mercenaries can fight with sense and the ones that do ought to be rewarded for it..
Maybe this is some pipe dream that prevents me from seeing the harsh reality of what it could do to pvpers but idk id be willing to try

I'm asking how you intend to sell your idea to other solo players when they are losing out on AP gains and expected to give up their independence.

1. Yes, you are okay with no solo players getting high leaderboard reward or Emperor. Do you really expect most solo players to be okay with that?

2. Yes, players who want to play with Cyrodiil's Dream Team can join a guild or make their own. Most solo players don't do so, because they don't want to. We're talking about players who want to play on their own, doing what they want to, rather than following orders from guilds or zone generals.

I mean, I love playing with my guild, and even I can admit that its not a fun playstyle for everyone.

Nothing about this seems positive for a solo player who values their independence.

But hey, if you want to give it a try, I suggest you try it out!
Find a guild to be your dream team or make your own.
Start leading PUGs and recruit the people you need.
If you wanna play solo, start asking your faction guilds if you can be a scout for them.
There's nothing stopping you from trying out your idea for yourself, right now.

Kwoung · February 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

And you implied that you prefer to play solo when you are focused??? It's a preference based on selfishness of freedom and should not be seen as the same amount of usefulness as cooperation towards a goal.

I actually didn't say that at all, I said many players who play solo do so in order to be able to play at all. The person AFKing every 10 minutes is not a good group player and will probably get booted, or are you saying that just because someone can't focus 2-3 hours straight and join a group, should simply not play or not be rewarded for playing in the way their life allows? I have spent the last 2-3 weeks in Cyro running solo behind my guild group, because the 12 player cap screwed us over. So even though I had a 149/8 KD ratio and 57 KB's, all earned in rather large battles the other day, I wasn't helping by your definition?

Indigogo · February 2022

I'm imagining the fantasy scenario here is a z grade crown subjugating all the bombers and xers into slave labour so they can power their way to emp while spending 2 hours wiping constantly at a keep take.

dem0n1k · February 2022

The AP should go to the player that earned it. Not to the whole group & definitely not more for the crown just for being crown. If the crown kills more players, repairs more walls/doors & basically does all the AP gaining activities better than the rest of the group.. that's how they get more AP.

It's USUALLY the good solo players that get to Emp, because their group can't run with them all day as players have other things to do with their time. So while their group is off-line they need to be able to still pull in decent AP to stay ahead of the next guy on the leaderboard.

Amottica · February 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

1. solo players will never be emperor is a thing im okay with
2. your standing has nothing to do with your ability to find a guild or make your own, sure after awhile the most effective players in your faction might run in their own group exclusively but that doesnt stop you and others from striving to be the cyrodiil dream team..

I was thinking maybe there would be less use of spies and more use of solo players as scouts in a way you could have them patrol certain areas and relay information based on battles they observe like they could follow a large enemy group and tell you exactly what they are doing at all times??? then you and the fighters can move more confidently and freely
People starting their own groups might want to try recruiting healers or people with better gear and builds overall

I get that cyrodiil is basically non coordinated youre literally just a bunch of mercs senselessly throwing yourselves at each other in the name of one faction and why would you want anything else?
But even mercenaries can fight with sense and the ones that do ought to be rewarded for it..
Maybe this is some pipe dream that prevents me from seeing the harsh reality of what it could do to pvpers but idk id be willing to try

I'm asking how you intend to sell your idea to other solo players when they are losing out on AP gains and expected to give up their independence.

1. Yes, you are okay with no solo players getting high leaderboard reward or Emperor. Do you really expect most solo players to be okay with that?

2. Yes, players who want to play with Cyrodiil's Dream Team can join a guild or make their own. Most solo players don't do so, because they don't want to. We're talking about players who want to play on their own, doing what they want to, rather than following orders from guilds or zone generals.

I mean, I love playing with my guild, and even I can admit that its not a fun playstyle for everyone.

Nothing about this seems positive for a solo player who values their independence.

But hey, if you want to give it a try, I suggest you try it out!
Find a guild to be your dream team or make your own.
Start leading PUGs and recruit the people you need.
If you wanna play solo, start asking your faction guilds if you can be a scout for them.
There's nothing stopping you from trying out your idea for yourself, right now.

This line of thought @VaranisArano is bringing up is very important. Zenimax would have no interest in alienating any group of players as it is bad for business. So they would need to see how solo players will feel welcome in this Cyrodiil world you are suggesting and that solo players would buy into the idea as they most prefer to play solo.

They also need to see there's a problem with the current design since it seems to work just fine. Both of these are basically requirements.

Xarc · February 2022

Im not an extreme role player but i feel as if Cyrodiil is lacking any real strategy....

Oh really ?
It's been like that for like... 6 years ?