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A summary of seals of endeavor

Sawbones194
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Based on a thread in the german Forums called "Elder Scrolls Portal": https://www.elderscrollsportal.de/themen/siegel-der-bestrebungen-ein-kleiner-rueckblick.55885/

The Endeavor system has now been available long enough that as of today, if you've made every daily ab weekly you can now buy a Radiant Apex Mount through Seals, rather than through the manipulative gamble that Crown Crates represent. So you can have collected a little more than 16,000 seals to date.

So it took 222 days. And here, too, one notices the typical "Zenimax factor", because once again the developer didn't think much about it or simply thought wrongly about it. Because if you wanted a mount that was available during the seals launch period, you can't buy it today, as it's currently not in the store. Because, in addition to the well-known gambling mechanics of the crown-crates, Zenimax also uses the so-called "fear of missing out" principle, far removed from any sense of respect for the time and money of the players. So boosting item sales due to their limited availability, which of course is absolutely ridiculous to justify in a digital store.

From the beginning there was a rumor that this system was only introduced to counteract the gambling regulations of some countries in advance. But maybe it's simply a reaction to the criticism from players due to the expensive prices of loot boxes. One way or another so it's a typical Zenimax thing: the solution to a problem the developer created himself.(Hello to the craft bag!)

Now let's get to a few
Statistics:

I said radiant apex mount and that actually makes sense. The other currency is the gems (how fitting that the premium currency in the free-to-play, lootbox-infused mobile offshoot of the series is named the same) and here there are sometimes drastic conversion factors. We have to pay 16 gems or 1000 seals for a superior item. That is a factor of 62.5. For a Radiant Apex Mount, it's 2500 Gems or 16,000 Seals a factor of 6.4.

Also interesting is the fact that since the seals were introduced, the amount of seals that we can get every day has dropped drastically. In the beginning we could sometimes earn up to 90 seals a day or 400 a week. But that still seemed a bit too generous, which is why it quickly dropped to an average of 70 seals per day (= 3x 35) and it is currently at 35 seals per day (3x 10 seals).

If you start collecting seals today, you will need at least 250 days instead of 222 at the current factor. And of course you can't explicitly save on an item if it's too expensive, because the FOMO kicks in really well here too.

My conclusion:

As I suspected at the outset, the Endeavor system is not a real alternative to gambling. It is not possible to see an item in a store and actively save for it. Unless you wait until the rotation of the loot boxes has changed again. The aspiration system merely serves as an additional element during the gameplay-loop. It marginally changes the way the player plays in the way that they look at which of the aspirations they are comfortable doing and then complete them. But actively working towards an object is not worth it.
Edited by Sawbones194 on January 24, 2022 12:15PM
  • sajackson
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    I agree with your observations, producers of games with micro-transactions will always want people to buy things in the store and adding alternative but extremely slow means of obtaining items in game like seals is really just doing "the minimum" to keep games compliant with local regulations.

    For me personally I tend to use seals to buy main things in the 3 - 4k range cause you can collect that over the course of a few months and theres some nice motifs and stuff in there, but I agree it sucks if you're trying to save up for mounts this way.

    Trouble is nothing will change unless laws change to force publishers to make it fairer.
  • Sawbones194
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    sajackson wrote: »
    For me personally I tend to use seals to buy main things in the 3 - 4k range cause you can collect that over the course of a few months and theres some nice motifs and stuff in there, but I agree it sucks if you're trying to save up for mounts this way.

    Trouble is nothing will change unless laws change to force publishers to make it fairer.

    Yeah me too. Buying mostly stuff in that range as Well. Loke the orc noble Outfit from last crates
  • _Zathras_
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    As I suspected at the outset, the Endeavor system is not a real alternative to gambling.

    It's not supposed to be.

    It is literally so they can say there is an in-game means to get anything that is offered in the Crates. That's it.



  • alienmz
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    Tbh., i never check out the seals or the daily quests before i start playing. Actually i have 9600 seals collected and that's fine for me. Sometimes i will have 16000 and hopefully, then there's a nice mount. If not - later there will be a nice one. I will never be able to buy all of them so that's no problem for me.

    I buy 30 crown crates if a new series is offered - and if don't get the items i wanted i can buy them with gems. All i can get from crown crates, gems or seals is optional and nice to have and that's all.

    When I play the lottery I have to reckon with not getting anything - and buying crown crates is a kind of similiar.
    Edited by alienmz on January 24, 2022 12:56PM
  • VaranisArano
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    It's not much of a rumor that Seals of Endeavor is ZOS' attempt to comply with Microsoft's policies about Loot Boxes.

    Microsoft's policies, which include:
    "Items in loot boxes can always be earned through play. All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay (i.e. grinding)."
    https://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/for-everyone/responsible-gaming/loot-boxes/

    Uh, that's Seals of Endeavor right there, down to the grinding.

    It's also not much of a rumor that Microsoft adopted those policies out due to the pressure of bad PR, and the threat of increasing regulation of loot boxes in the US and European market. In 2019 and under mounting pressure, they, Nintendo, and Sony took the baby step of deciding they'd require games to be transparent about their loot box odds. Microsoft has since gone further with their policy above. https://www.theesa.com/news/video-game-industry-commitments-to-further-inform-consumer-purchases/
  • Kiralyn2000
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    Also interesting is the fact that since the seals were introduced, the amount of seals that we can get every day has dropped drastically. In the beginning we could sometimes earn up to 90 seals a day or 400 a week. But that still seemed a bit too generous, which is why it quickly dropped to an average of 70 seals per day (= 3x 35) and it is currently at 35 seals per day (3x 10 seals).

    Check out the threads where the totals have been graphed. One, it's leveled out over the last month or two (so it's not dropping), and the weekly amounts have gone back up. So the total total (dailies + weeklies) hasn't dropped.

    (meanwhile, the first two days of the event, the dailies were 20 and 15)


    ---
    I suppose it's because I'm not bothered by FOMO in the first place, as well as not being interested in the top prizes (those mounts are ugly), but the Endeavor system does nothing to 'make' me want to buy crates.

    I didn't want to get them before (I love opening free crates, it reinforces my view that they're not worth the $), and I still don't. But the Endeavor system gives me a chance to grab some of the mid-level prizes (1k & 2k seals) that I find interesting. So, overall, it's a great improvement. For me. /shrug

    It is not possible to see an item in a store and actively save for it.

    Only if the only things you're considering are Apex prizes.
  • NoxiousBlight
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    So I have never missed a seal yet, nor have I spent any.

    Do I think it takes too long to earn 16k? Absolutely. Almost 250 days of never missing a seal to get the top reward seems a bit nuts - especially if there is no possible way to get one top reward per crate season. AND you can't miss a day AND you can't buy anything else.

    As an alternative I think something like completing a vet trial should award one of the current crown crates once per week. That feels a lot more in line with Microsoft's policy.

    Or an actual true way to grind out seals without cap. That is what grinding really is isn't it? Per every X incursions you do you get 50 seals. Then I can grind it out all day if I really wanted the galaxy goat mount or whatever. With the cap per day it only feels like ESO is halfway to what Microsoft asks of their games regarding loot boxes.

    But it also doesn't bother me too much at the end of the day. I don't own a single radiant apex and now I will be able to get one. That is one more than I would ever have otherwise.

    ESO really could be the best MMO without competition if all of the loot box nonsense was earnable in game via achievements and true grinding. But I suppose if that never happens i'll take the endeavors over nothing.
  • Kiralyn2000
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    especially if there is no possible way to get one top reward per crate season.

    Considering that many of those who've posted in the past about buying crates are generally focused on a single "top reward" as their goal, being guaranteed to be able to get one top reward per crate season would definitely change the way the entire system/market/etc works.

    I never expected that level of reward from Endeavors.
    Edited by Kiralyn2000 on January 24, 2022 2:21PM
  • NoxiousBlight
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    especially if there is no possible way to get one top reward per crate season.

    Considering that many of those who've posted in the past about buying crates are generally focused on a single "top reward" as their goal, being guaranteed to be able to get one top reward per crate season would definitely change the way the entire system/market/etc works.

    I never expected that level of reward from Endeavors.

    I didn't EXPECT it, but is it really "grinding" per Microsoft's policy on loot boxes if it is literally impossible to grind out a reward in time to get it? Just speculating. There is clearly room for interpretation there and ZOS has chosen a different interpretation than how I would read it.
  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    Endeavor were never meant to replace crown crate purchase completly

    Back in june i and some other forum member estimated that if all seal were obtained we should get 2 radient apex a year or so, wich in the end we missed the 6 month mark by roughly 1 month
  • Elsonso
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    especially if there is no possible way to get one top reward per crate season.

    Considering that many of those who've posted in the past about buying crates are generally focused on a single "top reward" as their goal, being guaranteed to be able to get one top reward per crate season would definitely change the way the entire system/market/etc works.

    I never expected that level of reward from Endeavors.

    I didn't EXPECT it, but is it really "grinding" per Microsoft's policy on loot boxes if it is literally impossible to grind out a reward in time to get it? Just speculating. There is clearly room for interpretation there and ZOS has chosen a different interpretation than how I would read it.

    Yes, I think it is. ZOS appears to be complying with the letter of the law, so to speak. It took over 200 days for players to grind to the level where everything _can_ be purchased, but we are now there.

    Specific radiant apex mounts are very expensive. We are talking on the order of 200,000 to 250,000 Crowns just to get the Gems to buy the one you want, assuming you don't get lucky. I have to think that the number of people spending that much money on Crowns to get specific radiant apex mounts is probably pretty small, and even smaller if they do it regularly. This is multiple applications of the 80-20 rule.

    So, if you really sit down and crank out the numbers, it may very well be that the player who spends 250 days in game collecting daily and weekly seals is going to be on par with the player who buys enough Crowns over the same period of time to be able to get that same mount. Instead of spending money, they are spending time. Both are very expensive.

    And... no... ZOS should not hand out Crown Crates for in-game rewards. Just say NO to Crown Crates.



    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
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    Total in-game hours: 11321
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  • Necrotech_Master
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    i think there was another thread about this last week

    in there a graph showing the past 100 days has shown the total amount per week is relatively stable right now (around 500 +/- a few per week)

    this is less than the first 1-2 months where we were getting closer to 600 seals per week

    either way i do agree that this is fairly slow, if you were only buying radiant apex mounts, that is still limited to basically 1 per year if you didnt miss anything

    i also found it interesting that gem/seal ratios were so off, it is much better deal to get legendary and higher items with seals and gems for lower cost items (i also find it annoying that we have 2 crown store secondary currencies to begin with, i initially thought the endeavors would have awarded crown gems instead of a whole new currency since you can buy the same things with them)
    plays PC/NA
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    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • Elsonso
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    i also found it interesting that gem/seal ratios were so off, it is much better deal to get legendary and higher items with seals and gems for lower cost items (i also find it annoying that we have 2 crown store secondary currencies to begin with, i initially thought the endeavors would have awarded crown gems instead of a whole new currency since you can buy the same things with them)

    My speculation as to why includes handing out items obtained by spending real world money through in-game actions. It is probably similar to the same reason they do not do Gold-Crown exchanges. It also allows them to set the value of time independent from the value of unwanted loot box items.
    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
    Total in-game hours: 11321
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    i also found it interesting that gem/seal ratios were so off, it is much better deal to get legendary and higher items with seals and gems for lower cost items (i also find it annoying that we have 2 crown store secondary currencies to begin with, i initially thought the endeavors would have awarded crown gems instead of a whole new currency since you can buy the same things with them)

    My speculation as to why includes handing out items obtained by spending real world money through in-game actions. It is probably similar to the same reason they do not do Gold-Crown exchanges. It also allows them to set the value of time independent from the value of unwanted loot box items.

    possible, although a gold-crown exchange would be a different beast

    i dont think you can gift anything you buy with endeavors (and possibly crown gems, never tried cause i rarely if ever have any) which is why i think its bizarre they invented a 2nd currency instead of just rewarding gems

    my reasoning for disliking the 2 currency systems is they are for buying the same items, but there is no way to split cost

    so if there is an item you want, but you are both short on seals and gems for the respective costs, why cant you do a mixed purchase with both gems and seals, this adds a level of frustration, because the player could have a mix of the currencies which would be enough to buy an item combined, but not enough individually

    with the current system i see even less of a reason to buy crown crates (i rarely bought any to begin with, i think since crown crates were introduced ive bought the 15 pack maybe 3 times ever), but with gems not stacking with seals, i definitely have no reason whatsoever to ever buy crown crates now
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • DaiKahn
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Specific radiant apex mounts are very expensive. We are talking on the order of 200,000 to 250,000 Crowns just to get the Gems to buy the one you want, assuming you don't get lucky
    O.o

    No, that's far too many for what you're saying, Elsonso. That's 600 crates so probably 7,000 - 9,000 gems if you get rid of most things (potions mainly) and account for doubles auto-converting into gems. Plus, you will more than likely get a radiant or two (no guarantees of course cause RNG). Failing getting any radiant mounts would cost 5,200 gems for all three if my memory serves me correctly their prices being 2,500, 1,500, and 1,200 gems

    This is only going from my experiences with buying crown crates and the gem conversions I've had from them

    When the Psijic crates re-released the other day, I bought 42,000 crowns worth (I already had 20,000 crowns on my account) so 62,000 crowns total (190 crates)

    Ended up with enough gems (almost 3,000 iirc) to get two radiant apex's (horse and wolf) with some gems left over plus a lot of the stuff from opening the crates

    Yes, the mounts most definitely are expensive; most things in the crown store are. And no, this is not to convince people to buy crown crates
    i dont think you can gift anything you buy with endeavors (and possibly crown gems, never tried cause i rarely if ever have any) which is why i think its bizarre they invented a 2nd currency instead of just rewarding gems
    That is correct; you cannot gift using either gems or endeavours

    What gets me though is although the radiant mounts have different gem pricing, they are all 16K endeavours
    I'm just a man
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  • Elsonso
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    DaiKahn wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Specific radiant apex mounts are very expensive. We are talking on the order of 200,000 to 250,000 Crowns just to get the Gems to buy the one you want, assuming you don't get lucky
    O.o

    No, that's far too many for what you're saying, Elsonso. That's 600 crates so probably 7,000 - 9,000 gems if you get rid of most things (potions mainly) and account for doubles auto-converting into gems. Plus, you will more than likely get a radiant or two (no guarantees of course cause RNG). Failing getting any radiant mounts would cost 5,200 gems for all three if my memory serves me correctly their prices being 2,500, 1,500, and 1,200 gems

    I was just going on my own experience of opening a few hundred promotional crown crates. Although, most of them were the Twitch crates, so maybe they hand out fewer gems.
    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
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  • Necrotech_Master
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    DaiKahn wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Specific radiant apex mounts are very expensive. We are talking on the order of 200,000 to 250,000 Crowns just to get the Gems to buy the one you want, assuming you don't get lucky
    O.o

    No, that's far too many for what you're saying, Elsonso. That's 600 crates so probably 7,000 - 9,000 gems if you get rid of most things (potions mainly) and account for doubles auto-converting into gems. Plus, you will more than likely get a radiant or two (no guarantees of course cause RNG). Failing getting any radiant mounts would cost 5,200 gems for all three if my memory serves me correctly their prices being 2,500, 1,500, and 1,200 gems

    I was just going on my own experience of opening a few hundred promotional crown crates. Although, most of them were the Twitch crates, so maybe they hand out fewer gems.

    from what ive seen/heard, you can get approximately 100-150 crown gems from a 15 crate roll (can vary +/- a bit due to RNG rolling dupes, and how much you convert, the more collectibles you have from the crates the more gems you will get, etc)

    assuming 100 gems avg, that would be 25 of the 15-crate purchases (about 375 crates)
    assuming 150 gems avg, that would be 17 of the 15-crate purchases (about 255 crates)

    both of those estimates are for the price of 1 2500-gem radiant mount

    when they were giving us the preview crates, those definitely had way less in them than normal crates, im assuming the twitch crates are full crates though

    i dont get crates that often, so these are just estimates based on what ive seen others reporting
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
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