Why is it the general impression of people who don't play ESO is that the combat is bad?

M0ntie · January 2022

Because it is utter garbage. When I hit something, or it hits me, it SHOULD ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE THE WEAPON IS CONNECTING. I bought ESO on release played a little and then left for a year or two. Hated that enemies can hit me when they are no where near me. Eventually came back and have played for years having got over the lack of realism.

Still tempted to leave because desyncs and lag that are the biggest challenge in completing end game content. Eg vAShm during an event u get killed by damage that doesn’t show as on you.
LA weaving is fine - it makes the game more skill based.

M0ntie · January 2022

What’s good combat? I love the Dark Souls series combat.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

_Zathras_ wrote: »

As for the criticisms themselves..they've been there since the beginning with Angry Joe debuting his first ESO review. People picked up on the points, and it ran like wildfire. Because of a streamer. So, a lot of people had their opinions handed to them, and it became gospel.

Aren't you engaging in the same behaviour you're calling out, though? Angry Joe happened to be making some very valid criticisms with the game, and represented a big part of the category of players that ZoS were trying to appeal to. The video highlights the values of these people, and where ZoS were dropping the ball, in regards to those values. It was imperative that they took these criticisms on board.

I'd already been playing for some time before I watched that review, but I recognised a lot of my frustrations (and those of others I've heard) in what he was saying.

TelvanniWizard · January 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Perhaps they are talking about weaving and animation cancelling, a bug that stayed for so long that it became a "feature".

Most features that are commonplace now-a-days originated as bugs, so I never understand this argument... Are you implying all bugs should just be fixed or if people like the bugs enough, let them stay as a feature?

Yes, bugs should be fixed. It's elemental in my point of view.

skelo0 · January 2022

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

Merlin13KAGL · January 2022

Skills don't consistently fire.
AI is pretty much nonexistent.
Targeting is hot garbage on a good day.
Most PvE combat is so scripted it hurts. There is very little actual dynamic combat in ESO.
There is no good transition from normal to vet to HM difficulties.
A lot of fights that rely too much on perma stuns, fear, trash quantity, or spending more time chasing after the boss than actually fighting it. (See any of half a dozen Summerset bosses for a fine example.)
Lack of diversity in skills.
Lack of diversity in gear (except the FoTM used to sell the latest content.)
It's the only video game I've ever come across where actions are coded to take place on key release, not key press, which is counterintuitive for everything but a 'hold' type action.

Just to name a few...

It's what a lot of people have simply gotten used to (read that as "learned to tolerate.") It's a mere shadow of what the standalone versions offered.

Play any of a handful of well coded games that require reaction (not repetition) and awareness, at the same time being responsive themselves, and ESO's excuse for combat quickly pales in comparison.

M0ntie wrote: »

What’s good combat? I love the Dark Souls series combat.

@M0ntie such coding is beyond them. I wish they would learn a thing or two about the responsiveness in such titles.

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

Kwoung wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Because eso feels like it was made 2004.

The animations are stiff, lazy , repeatable, boring, feel bad to use, have bad special effects, one cant see anything on trials its even worse for stams.

This is what my few friends say.

OMG, try running in a keep in PVP, your screen is so awash with effects you can't even see where you are going, how many players are there, where they are... and I have them turned down to bare minimum, and I even tweaked the UserSettings.txt to turn them down further than the interface allows!

What line is responsible for the effect in the txt file?

EmperorIl · January 2022

You're passing this opinion off as not being credible under false pretenses. I and many others play the game and think combat is bad.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · January 2022

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

eso is not a fast game, anything is fast compared to wow etc.

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

First of all, ESO is slow and buggy in comparison to other good mmorpg (wow ain't that) try a weaver in GW2 where you will rotate between 25 skills constantly with combos, all of which is fast and responsive even in blob v bob. Some people have deluded themselves that spamming animation cancel fast attack every second is skill, its not its a bug and its [snip] gameplay - spam 2 skills a second really????

aside from that, list from above stands, and others:

Skills don't consistently fire.
Weapon swap lags out, actually game breaking right there.
Rubber banding
Running around while the server calculates that you die 30 seconds ago
Massive lag
Game cannot cope with blobs at all and lags out.
Nature of skills in ESO mean blobs cannot be countered
A Huge badly designed WVW map that demands significant amounts of time doing nothing bar running and trying to find a fight
Low population now
Stealth/one shot kill builds which is deal breaking in a lag filled game.
overpowered tank builds due to CP scaling

that's a car crash of a game.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

eso is not a fast game, anything is fast compared to wow etc.

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

First of all, ESO is slow and buggy in comparison to other good mmorpg (wow ain't that) try a weaver in GW2 where you will rotate between 25 skills constantly with combos, all of which is fast and responsive even in blob v bob. Some people have deluded themselves that spamming animation cancel fast attack every second is skill, its not its a bug and its [snip] gameplay - spam 2 skills a second really????

aside from that, list from above stands, and others:

Skills don't consistently fire.

Weapon swap lags out, actually game breaking right there.

Rubber banding

Running around while the server calculates that you die 30 seconds ago

Massive lag

Game cannot cope with blobs at all and lags out.

Nature of skills in ESO mean blobs cannot be countered

A Huge badly designed WVW map that demands significant amounts of time doing nothing bar running and trying to find a fight

Low population now

Stealth/one shot kill builds which is deal breaking in a lag filled game.

overpowered tank builds due to CP scaling

that's a car crash of a game.

More skills =/= better. I am very glad that I have only 5 skills active and can easily bind them to a small number of keys. The skill limit is part of the design and your build, as is the 4-slot CP limit. Why so many players just refuse to notice this I don't understand at all. It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles and a gamepad cannot have 25+ buttons. In my opinion, ZoS did an excellent job with the design of a limited number of slots for active skills. And I'm happy that ESO has more action-oriented combat gameplay.
In addition, many new players overestimate the value of light attacks. It's only 15-17% of your parse damage. You can ignore this and you will still have all the content to conquer, including veteran content. [snip]
The rest of your "shortcomings" of the battle relate exclusively to the server side, and not to the design.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

Oh yes, I forgot. I've been playing for 8 years and only now I discovered that the skills work when you release the button. It's really weird. Perhaps part of the problem with skipping my light attacks is due to the fact that I delay the keystroke longer.

RicAlmighty · January 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles

Is that why the PC version of the game came out a full year earlier than the console version? Seems that it would be the other way around if it were designed for consoles.

I don't really have much of a stake in this fight. I like this game very much, it has so much going for it that is outstanding, but to me, the combat engine is my least favorite part of the game.

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles

Is that why the PC version of the game came out a full year earlier than the console version? Seems that it would be the other way around if it were designed for consoles.

I don't really have much of a stake in this fight. I like this game very much, it has so much going for it that is outstanding, but to me, the combat engine is my least favorite part of the game.

Yes, for a year. What is wrong with this?

RicAlmighty · January 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles

Is that why the PC version of the game came out a full year earlier than the console version? Seems that it would be the other way around if it were designed for consoles.

I don't really have much of a stake in this fight. I like this game very much, it has so much going for it that is outstanding, but to me, the combat engine is my least favorite part of the game.

Yes, for a year. What is wrong with this?

Wow, ok, guess I have to clarify. You stated that the game "was developed for consoles." If that were indeed the case, then the console versions should have released first, except they didn't, it took over a year after the PC release for them to do so. So, at best, the two platforms were developed simultaneously, at worst, the PC was designed first, followed by console adjustments.

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles

Is that why the PC version of the game came out a full year earlier than the console version? Seems that it would be the other way around if it were designed for consoles.

I don't really have much of a stake in this fight. I like this game very much, it has so much going for it that is outstanding, but to me, the combat engine is my least favorite part of the game.

Yes, for a year. What is wrong with this?

Wow, ok, guess I have to clarify. You stated that the game "was developed for consoles." If that were indeed the case, then the console versions should have released first, except they didn't, it took over a year after the PC release for them to do so. So, at best, the two platforms were developed simultaneously, at worst, the PC was designed first, followed by console adjustments.

Not required. There is nothing wrong with the fact that the release of the game was delayed. This is absolutely normal practice.

RicAlmighty · January 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles

Is that why the PC version of the game came out a full year earlier than the console version? Seems that it would be the other way around if it were designed for consoles.

I don't really have much of a stake in this fight. I like this game very much, it has so much going for it that is outstanding, but to me, the combat engine is my least favorite part of the game.

Yes, for a year. What is wrong with this?

Wow, ok, guess I have to clarify. You stated that the game "was developed for consoles." If that were indeed the case, then the console versions should have released first, except they didn't, it took over a year after the PC release for them to do so. So, at best, the two platforms were developed simultaneously, at worst, the PC was designed first, followed by console adjustments.

Not required. There is nothing wrong with the fact that the release of the game was delayed. This is absolutely normal practice.

I can see that logic eludes you, so I will leave you to it. Have a great day.

kwinter · January 2022

Game was design original for PC but early on in development they decide to also release to console however there were issues with the console plus all the issues on PC they had the first year they push console release back a year

spartaxoxo · January 2022

kwinter wrote: »

Game was design original for PC but early on in development they decide to also release to console however there were issues with the console plus all the issues on PC they had the first year they push console release back a year

Yup. This game is designed for PC. And it frankly shows in not only the release date but in the interface, e.g. move to junk. They didn't spend too much time on it because this game was designed with PC in mind and they likely assumed the use of add-ons would occur for anything people didn't like and didn't adequately pivot it when they launched on console, with it getting cleaned up years later.

I will say it's likely the skill bar limit was probably influenced by their pre-release decison to add consoles.

Kordai · January 2022

I enjoy the combat for the fact that it's fast paced and being proactive can make a huge difference.

On the other hand it's really repetitive. Because there's really nothing to manage skill wise, it basically is just keep up maintenance abilities/dots and spam. Armor buffs and entropy isn't exactly riveting gameplay, unlike some other mmos where resources are much tighter, eso is just spamming most of the time.

For example in WoW, while some of the classes do have large pools that you need to manage, alot of the others have smaller pools/resource regen mechanics that make things interesting outside of bosses.

In eso outside of dungeon bosses/trials, I don't really worry about anything. I can't die, can't run out of resources, barely need to block or dodge, barely need to do anything other than click my spammable a few times. Power creep has gotten ridiculous.

While I agree with the previous poster that more skills doesn't equate to better combat, it does add to it pretty significantly. You have shooters that enemies are just bullet sponges, and it can get old real quick. How fun is holding down the left mouse button until the enemy is dead?

Dark_Lord_Kuro · January 2022

Castagere wrote: »

The limited abilities you can use make it boring to a lot of people. But they needed to do this because of the console players. Imagine if ESO was a PC-only game. I bet we would have more skills to use.

Could be better
Ff14 managed to squeeze 32 skill on a controller with their coss hotbar setup

wild_kmacdb16_ESO · January 2022

Few skills and the ones that do exist, the animations are uninspiring and often times janky. Why does my tank STAB (Puncture) enemies with a hammer? Why is my other attack that uses the weapon crouching down and hitting the enemy in the ankle?

And then you get into things like Heavy Attacks being used as little as possible because they dont work like most outsiders would think, bashing being made useless for damage purposes... the average fight can look repetitive very quickly.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · January 2022

Most likely due to that horrendous annimation cancelling

irswat · January 2022

Bad ass. Eso combat is bad ass.

skelo0 · January 2022

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

eso is not a fast game, anything is fast compared to wow etc.

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

First of all, ESO is slow and buggy in comparison to other good mmorpg (wow ain't that) try a weaver in GW2 where you will rotate between 25 skills constantly with combos, all of which is fast and responsive even in blob v bob. Some people have deluded themselves that spamming animation cancel fast attack every second is skill, its not its a bug and its [snip] gameplay - spam 2 skills a second really????

aside from that, list from above stands, and others:

Skills don't consistently fire.

Weapon swap lags out, actually game breaking right there.

Rubber banding

Running around while the server calculates that you die 30 seconds ago

Massive lag

Game cannot cope with blobs at all and lags out.

Nature of skills in ESO mean blobs cannot be countered

A Huge badly designed WVW map that demands significant amounts of time doing nothing bar running and trying to find a fight

Low population now

Stealth/one shot kill builds which is deal breaking in a lag filled game.

overpowered tank builds due to CP scaling

that's a car crash of a game.

[edited for profanity bypass]

The issues you listed are either only an issue in cyrodiil or otherwise aren't as bad if you are not in cyrodiil, if you are trying to say that cyrodiil is bad then I completely agree with you, cyrodiil sucks. But luckily there is much more to this game than cyrodiil.

Tannus15 · January 2022

it's weird, I was in vRG the other night for a few hours and neither myself nor anyone else in the trial were complaining about skills not firing or massive lag or issues with weapon swapping or literally any of the complaints listed in this thread.

what i'm mostly seeing here is some cyrodill pvp'ers are not happy and are equating the server lag with the combat system. they are not the same thing.

i would say that the combat system lacks depth, but makes up for this by requiring awareness of environmental pressures. the base game dungeons are so easy for vet players because the mechanics are so straight forward or can be ignored all together.

Bahsei or the twins on the other hand really show strength of the system, where awareness and movement are the important part of the fight, not the less complicated mechanical issue of keeping up your rotation and buffs.

Ksariyu · January 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's weird, I was in vRG the other night for a few hours and neither myself nor anyone else in the trial were complaining about skills not firing or massive lag or issues with weapon swapping or literally any of the complaints listed in this thread.

what i'm mostly seeing here is some cyrodill pvp'ers are not happy and are equating the server lag with the combat system. they are not the same thing.

i would say that the combat system lacks depth, but makes up for this by requiring awareness of environmental pressures. the base game dungeons are so easy for vet players because the mechanics are so straight forward or can be ignored all together.

Bahsei or the twins on the other hand really show strength of the system, where awareness and movement are the important part of the fight, not the less complicated mechanical issue of keeping up your rotation and buffs.

So many things to respond to in this thread but yours is the last I saw.

I would argue two things on the environment vs. rotation part. One, I don't care how interactive the environment is if all I have is one and only one playstyle. It's boring after a while, and makes it so you either love the combat or hate it, as is evident in this thread. Two, awareness of the environment is irrelevant when there are addons that literally tell you when to dodge, when to block, when a big attack is coming, etc. You spend all your time looking at this extended UI of buff timers and combat alerts that the actual game just becomes background noise. That to me is a MASSIVE failure of the combat system, ignoring everything else.

Tannus15 · January 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's weird, I was in vRG the other night for a few hours and neither myself nor anyone else in the trial were complaining about skills not firing or massive lag or issues with weapon swapping or literally any of the complaints listed in this thread.

what i'm mostly seeing here is some cyrodill pvp'ers are not happy and are equating the server lag with the combat system. they are not the same thing.

i would say that the combat system lacks depth, but makes up for this by requiring awareness of environmental pressures. the base game dungeons are so easy for vet players because the mechanics are so straight forward or can be ignored all together.

Bahsei or the twins on the other hand really show strength of the system, where awareness and movement are the important part of the fight, not the less complicated mechanical issue of keeping up your rotation and buffs.

So many things to respond to in this thread but yours is the last I saw.

I would argue two things on the environment vs. rotation part. One, I don't care how interactive the environment is if all I have is one and only one playstyle. It's boring after a while, and makes it so you either love the combat or hate it, as is evident in this thread. Two, awareness of the environment is irrelevant when there are addons that literally tell you when to dodge, when to block, when a big attack is coming, etc. You spend all your time looking at this extended UI of buff timers and combat alerts that the actual game just becomes background noise. That to me is a MASSIVE failure of the combat system, ignoring everything else.

in particular that's why i point out bah-sei and the twins. it's not a "dodge roll now" or "block now" it's keep an eye out for curses or the colour swap mechanic and then if it affects you then react correctly and if not then continue doing what you're doing. the mechanics that are good right now are movement orientated rather than hit the right button now, if that makes sense.

I also think it's great that it's a sliding scale. vFG1 the last boss is literally "move out of the red". for people who are still learning the rotation that's enough. do the rotation and avoid one mechanic, and yes, a lot of people still die to that one mechanic.

I promise you, if you think looking at your skill timers and combat alerts is going to get you a vAS+2 clear you're in for a nasty shock.

Jusey1 · January 2022

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Yes, bugs should be fixed. It's elemental in my point of view.

I agree only bad bugs should be fixed. A good bug that the community likes or ends up being good should be allowed. Again, many features that are commonplace in today's world originated as bugs, even the very concept of difficulty in video games originated as a bug funnily enough.

colossalvoids · January 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Yes, bugs should be fixed. It's elemental in my point of view.

I agree only bad bugs should be fixed. A good bug that the community likes or ends up being good should be allowed. Again, many features that are commonplace in today's world originated as bugs, even the very concept of difficulty in video games originated as a bug funnily enough.

Especially when a lot of people missing what exactly was the bug part here and what's just "semi unintended" usage of actual in-game mechanics and working around gcd features. Calling it a bug is just an old stretch for some to sound more reasonable.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · January 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

eso is not a fast game, anything is fast compared to wow etc.

skelo0 wrote: »

Most complaints I read about ESO's combat generally stems from an issue the person has rather than and issue the combat has, i.e they cant weave very well. Other times it's things that don't really have to do with combat (like animations or server lag). All in all I think its just because they have a preference towards slower games (especially if they play a tab-targeting MMO like WoW or FFXIV) as apposed to a fast game like ESO.

First of all, ESO is slow and buggy in comparison to other good mmorpg (wow ain't that) try a weaver in GW2 where you will rotate between 25 skills constantly with combos, all of which is fast and responsive even in blob v bob. Some people have deluded themselves that spamming animation cancel fast attack every second is skill, its not its a bug and its [snip] gameplay - spam 2 skills a second really????

aside from that, list from above stands, and others:

Skills don't consistently fire.

Weapon swap lags out, actually game breaking right there.

Rubber banding

Running around while the server calculates that you die 30 seconds ago

Massive lag

Game cannot cope with blobs at all and lags out.

Nature of skills in ESO mean blobs cannot be countered

A Huge badly designed WVW map that demands significant amounts of time doing nothing bar running and trying to find a fight

Low population now

Stealth/one shot kill builds which is deal breaking in a lag filled game.

overpowered tank builds due to CP scaling

that's a car crash of a game.

More skills =/= better. I am very glad that I have only 5 skills active and can easily bind them to a small number of keys. The skill limit is part of the design and your build, as is the 4-slot CP limit. Why so many players just refuse to notice this I don't understand at all. It is also worth remembering that eso was developed for consoles and a gamepad cannot have 25+ buttons. In my opinion, ZoS did an excellent job with the design of a limited number of slots for active skills. And I'm happy that ESO has more action-oriented combat gameplay.
In addition, many new players overestimate the value of light attacks. It's only 15-17% of your parse damage. You can ignore this and you will still have all the content to conquer, including veteran content. [snip]
The rest of your "shortcomings" of the battle relate exclusively to the server side, and not to the design.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

15-17% is a game breaker in PVP i.e with 2 equal skilled players with the same build the player who literally spams animation cancel wins every time. 'spam an animation cancel between every single skill' is also ugly game design, and actually its root cause is a bug that could not be fixed and is not present in any other big AAA mmorpg.

Re my comment over skills, this is my point:

1) ESO - 10 skills over 2 bars, 10 amination cancel spams in-between.
2) Other games, 20 skills.

1 is just nasty, unrewarding and transparent to new and casual players. 2 is far richer and rewards skill not spamming (or is that macros, which makes the problem even worse)