xylena_lazarow wrote: »

an optimized defensive build will 100% always stall out an optimized offensive build

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

This is the correct issue.

Defile will just screw smaller groups and solo.

Heal stacking in pvp is the issue.

Regen is a big one. It should just replace it everytime that it's casted

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

This is the correct issue.

Defile will just screw smaller groups and solo.

Heal stacking in pvp is the issue.

Regen is a big one. It should just replace it everytime that it's casted

Just going after cross healing will punish smaller groups as well. If you don't have the ability to heal eachother how do you hope to take down a zerg or ball groups with dedicated healers? Heal stacking is so powerful because there is no counter to it. At least with a buff in defile small groups could have a better chance at targeting healers and actually have an impact. With the way things are at the moment it's impossible.
Why do you think magplars and dks are meta right now? They have access to so much self healing and purging and there is no way for others to counter it meaningfully.

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

This is the correct issue.

Defile will just screw smaller groups and solo.

Heal stacking in pvp is the issue.

Regen is a big one. It should just replace it everytime that it's casted

Just going after cross healing will punish smaller groups as well. If you don't have the ability to heal eachother how do you hope to take down a zerg or ball groups with dedicated healers? Heal stacking is so powerful because there is no counter to it. At least with a buff in defile small groups could have a better chance at targeting healers and actually have an impact. With the way things are at the moment it's impossible.
Why do you think magplars and dks are meta right now? They have access to so much self healing and purging and there is no way for others to counter it meaningfully.

Heal stacking is still gonna be more effective even with defiles, especially in a large zerg. Even if my heals are gutted by 50%, if there's 20 of us all throwing down radiating regen, we can outheal you and defile you in the exact same way and it'll hurt the smaller group more because there's less healing to go around due to less numbers.
They need to put a cap on the amount of similar heals you can have on yourself, or remove similar heals entirely and make it just refresh the buff. They removed vigor's shared heal for this exact reason but continue to let mag users to stack radiating regens

So magplars that are full damage builds should be throwing out 15-20k Honor heals on each other, stand in runes/ritual + bubble getting another 8-12k passive and that is just fine, we should leave people with no counter? lol

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

A fully optimized meta offensive PvP build has no chance at killing a meta healer build

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

This is the correct issue.

Defile will just screw smaller groups and solo.

Heal stacking in pvp is the issue.

Regen is a big one. It should just replace it everytime that it's casted

Just going after cross healing will punish smaller groups as well. If you don't have the ability to heal eachother how do you hope to take down a zerg or ball groups with dedicated healers? Heal stacking is so powerful because there is no counter to it. At least with a buff in defile small groups could have a better chance at targeting healers and actually have an impact. With the way things are at the moment it's impossible.
Why do you think magplars and dks are meta right now? They have access to so much self healing and purging and there is no way for others to counter it meaningfully.

Heal stacking is still gonna be more effective even with defiles, especially in a large zerg. Even if my heals are gutted by 50%, if there's 20 of us all throwing down radiating regen, we can outheal you and defile you in the exact same way and it'll hurt the smaller group more because there's less healing to go around due to less numbers.
They need to put a cap on the amount of similar heals you can have on yourself, or remove similar heals entirely and make it just refresh the buff. They removed vigor's shared heal for this exact reason but continue to let mag users to stack radiating regens

So magplars that are full damage builds should be throwing out 15-20k Honor heals on each other, stand in runes/ritual + bubble getting another 8-12k passive and that is just fine, we should leave people with no counter? lol

I don't see how this is even relevant to what I said here. Most honor heals only work on low health anyways, same as most burst heals.
Also if you think defile is gonna stop them, you are sorely mistaken. You chose to list every single magplar heal under the sun except extended ritual which drops defile immediately, plus 4 other debuffs. Which I would argue is WORSE than honor the dead because you can essentially clear away all no no debuffs and heal inside it. Lots of mag classes have access to purge too, Necro, warden all have purges. Buff defile if you want but they're just gonna 1 button and do away with it. If you want to target healing, don't allow them to stack all these toxic heals on each other.

So again, the alternative is to just do nothing and leave as is. If you can actually debuff people with something worth purging they will purge it, do it enough times and they will run out of resources, simple.

I also don't understand your zerging example.

Lets say you have 20 people each doing 3k/tick, stack them all up it's 60k/tick, seems pretty insurmountable for 5 players to overcome. Let's cut this in half to 30k/tick, can we outdo that with 5 people? Maybe?

5 players, 15k/tick, easily overcome by the damage of 20 players. Let's cut that in half, 7.5k/tick... still easily overcome by the damage of 20 players.

So your options were you die, no chance of any kills, or, you die, chance of some kills.

Fail to see how this has hurt you more than them.

The point of the zerging example is that, the person I replied to claimed that "changing cross healing is gonna hurt small groups, we need a more effective way to target the healing"
But that argument doesn't work as zergs have more numbers, more numbers more regens they can stack on each other which equals more healing they have to keep themselves alive. Small groups won't be effected as much if there was a cap on similar heals, say 2 at once for example. If you're in a 3 man group, you'll have no more than 3 possible regens, but with a 20 man zerg that's potentially 20, even with defile, they're gonna be receiving more healing than the small scale group, enough to make defile meaningless in the grand scheme. That plus, that same zerg can also defile you and screw over your heals in the exact same way you can to them. They argue defile in small groups can let you target healers making these zergs weaker, which is irrelevant if everyone is carrying a resto staff with off heal HoTs on their back bar anyways.
If you REALLY wanted to help small scale in that scenario, make it so that these zergs can't intensely stack the same heals on each other and have 10+ incoming heals at once, you can't out damage that many heals at once, you just have to hope you can burst someone in your small offensive window when they stop spamming heals. That was the point of the example I made

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

reverting the changes to defile won't do anything to combat ball groups. The only people this will affect are the 1-5 players being chased by a 20 man alliance zerg. Ball groups will just purge off the defile constantly. Time has shown this. Time has also shown how displeased people where when single target defiles where so strong.

If you want to combat ball groups, you need to go after cross healing. Make it so the same abilities can't stack like radiating.

This is the correct issue.

Defile will just screw smaller groups and solo.

Heal stacking in pvp is the issue.

Regen is a big one. It should just replace it everytime that it's casted

Just going after cross healing will punish smaller groups as well. If you don't have the ability to heal eachother how do you hope to take down a zerg or ball groups with dedicated healers? Heal stacking is so powerful because there is no counter to it. At least with a buff in defile small groups could have a better chance at targeting healers and actually have an impact. With the way things are at the moment it's impossible.
Why do you think magplars and dks are meta right now? They have access to so much self healing and purging and there is no way for others to counter it meaningfully.

Heal stacking is still gonna be more effective even with defiles, especially in a large zerg. Even if my heals are gutted by 50%, if there's 20 of us all throwing down radiating regen, we can outheal you and defile you in the exact same way and it'll hurt the smaller group more because there's less healing to go around due to less numbers.
They need to put a cap on the amount of similar heals you can have on yourself, or remove similar heals entirely and make it just refresh the buff. They removed vigor's shared heal for this exact reason but continue to let mag users to stack radiating regens

So magplars that are full damage builds should be throwing out 15-20k Honor heals on each other, stand in runes/ritual + bubble getting another 8-12k passive and that is just fine, we should leave people with no counter? lol

I don't see how this is even relevant to what I said here. Most honor heals only work on low health anyways, same as most burst heals.
Also if you think defile is gonna stop them, you are sorely mistaken. You chose to list every single magplar heal under the sun except extended ritual which drops defile immediately, plus 4 other debuffs. Which I would argue is WORSE than honor the dead because you can essentially clear away all no no debuffs and heal inside it. Lots of mag classes have access to purge too, Necro, warden all have purges. Buff defile if you want but they're just gonna 1 button and do away with it. If you want to target healing, don't allow them to stack all these toxic heals on each other.

So again, the alternative is to just do nothing and leave as is. If you can actually debuff people with something worth purging they will purge it, do it enough times and they will run out of resources, simple.

I also don't understand your zerging example.

Lets say you have 20 people each doing 3k/tick, stack them all up it's 60k/tick, seems pretty insurmountable for 5 players to overcome. Let's cut this in half to 30k/tick, can we outdo that with 5 people? Maybe?

5 players, 15k/tick, easily overcome by the damage of 20 players. Let's cut that in half, 7.5k/tick... still easily overcome by the damage of 20 players.

So your options were you die, no chance of any kills, or, you die, chance of some kills.

Fail to see how this has hurt you more than them.

The point of the zerging example is that, the person I replied to claimed that "changing cross healing is gonna hurt small groups, we need a more effective way to target the healing"
But that argument doesn't work as zergs have more numbers, more numbers more regens they can stack on each other which equals more healing they have to keep themselves alive. Small groups won't be effected as much if there was a cap on similar heals, say 2 at once for example. If you're in a 3 man group, you'll have no more than 3 possible regens, but with a 20 man zerg that's potentially 20, even with defile, they're gonna be receiving more healing than the small scale group, enough to make defile meaningless in the grand scheme. That plus, that same zerg can also defile you and screw over your heals in the exact same way you can to them. They argue defile in small groups can let you target healers making these zergs weaker, which is irrelevant if everyone is carrying a resto staff with off heal HoTs on their back bar anyways.
If you REALLY wanted to help small scale in that scenario, make it so that these zergs can't intensely stack the same heals on each other and have 10+ incoming heals at once, you can't out damage that many heals at once, you just have to hope you can burst someone in your small offensive window when they stop spamming heals. That was the point of the example I made

I am not even disagreeing that people should not be able to have multiple of the same HoT stacked on them, just like I wouldn't agree that people should be able to have multiple of the same DoT on them.

But how would this solve the issue of 5 magplars spamming single target heals on one guy? It doesn't, for that we need better debuffs to inhibit their healing output.

My solution would be to the problem is reworking healing itself. The way things are you can stack the hell out of your damage and have no problems healing away most damage. If they re-work how healing works and change the source of healing to something else, that'd help it. Or even make it hybrid sourced where it relies on both damage and max stats. The way it is now, max stat has been so streamlined in PVP that it's almost useless in PVP. Back in the day you would need stamina, especially on some specs because abilities scaled that same way, but since have all been reworked into one stat (weapon/spell damage).
Reworking it into either hybrid or max stat dependent would take away a lot of that healing power, force people to actually build into max stat in order to get the same healing power, which results in lower WD/SD up in the air lowering the damage ceiling

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Dear ZOS,
Healing is so crazy high in pvp right now, that anyone wanting to just turtle up can spam 10k+ class burst heals over and over, and basically be invincible, making everyone so tanky no matter what build they are on. To the point of it generally taking 3-4 people to take one person down. Even all of my previously squish builds are now ultra survivable due to crazy high heals… And when a group has an actual healer, it’s near impossible to drop them as there are no real counters.

Multiple negates + dark convergence to cover a large area can sometimes work, but it only buys a short window as it can be rolled out of very fast.

Plaguebreak and dark convergence, even vicious death are clearly not the counter to ball groups - Since the ball groups and zergs just use them to better effect to decimate smaller groups and it tilts the balance even further.

My suggestion is to buff defile again. Once upon a time, major defile used to be a base of 30%, ramping up to 45% with CP increase. That stacked with minor defile could be an amazing counter to strong heals in pvp, with a dedicated tank using these effects. Now if anyone remembers OG fasallas guile… Ok I’m not asking for 80% and above heal reduction, but somewhere in the middle would be nice.

Maybe being major defile back up to 30%? Or even just add a CP so that builds have to spec heavily into this counter?

This would also fix the BIG issue with battlegrounds. Deathmatch has just become whichever team can stack the middle the hardest with a healer or 2 - Sometimes this is all 3 teams which leads to the time running out and barely any kills happening.

ESO is in desperate need of a heal counter. Please make it happen.

Cheers

[Edited Title for Real Life Politics]