Yet another forum thread about monetization

Sylvermynx · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Basically, I fail to see a strong business case to give Zenimax a reason to consider it. They are doing just fine with the crown crates (of which my comment on that was edited out of your reply).

Then why some other developers switched to that model?
Particularly Fortnite. Colossal sized game, which is also completely free and doesn't have any form of subscription.

It really doesn't matter what another publisher does or how they manage their game(s). If you prefer Fortnite's setup that's fine, but ESO isn't built that way, and hopefully will never head in that direction.

As for the battlepass thing, ugh, just ugh. No thank you. Not now, not ever. I don't grind anything any more, it's so not my thing at all. I don't even grind endeavors. When I really want something I buy crowns and get it (nope, I don't buy crates much any more - I got so much out of the crates we used to get for free, plus indriks (LOVE indriks!), etc. there's just really no need)

I'm perfectly fine with the way this game is run..

ive_wonder · January 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

It really doesn't matter what another publisher does or how they manage their game(s). If you prefer Fortnite's setup that's fine, but ESO isn't built that way, and hopefully will never head in that direction.

As for the battlepass thing, ugh, just ugh. No thank you. Not now, not ever. I don't grind anything any more, it's so not my thing at all. I don't even grind endeavors. When I really want something I buy crowns and get it (nope, I don't buy crates much any more - I got so much out of the crates we used to get for free, plus indriks (LOVE indriks!), etc. there's just really no need)

I'm perfectly fine with the way this game is run..

IMO it's always helpful to learn on other's mistakes and ... successes.
Why everyone so focused on battlepass being a grind. From what i remember, i don't know how is it now, but in Season 1 there were challenges released every week, like 3-6 challenges, something like go to 3 locations on the map and do a simple thing, some of them were actually creative (like play a melody on a giant piano). I don't remember grinding that thing hard, it instead gave me some bonus objectives to complete.
But i guess i know what you are talking about, i saw battlepasses where you really have to play every day 2-3 hours minimum.
I'm just saying that battlepass, if it implemented correctly can be good sourse of income for both players and a company.

Sylvermynx · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

It really doesn't matter what another publisher does or how they manage their game(s). If you prefer Fortnite's setup that's fine, but ESO isn't built that way, and hopefully will never head in that direction.

As for the battlepass thing, ugh, just ugh. No thank you. Not now, not ever. I don't grind anything any more, it's so not my thing at all. I don't even grind endeavors. When I really want something I buy crowns and get it (nope, I don't buy crates much any more - I got so much out of the crates we used to get for free, plus indriks (LOVE indriks!), etc. there's just really no need)

I'm perfectly fine with the way this game is run..

IMO it's always helpful to learn on other's mistakes and ... successes.
Why everyone so focused on battlepass being a grind. From what i remember, i don't know how is it now, but in Season 1 there were challenges released every week, like 3-6 challenges, something like go to 3 locations on the map and do a simple thing, some of them were actually creative (like play a melody on a giant piano). I don't remember grinding that thing hard, it instead gave me some bonus objectives to complete.
But i guess i know what you are talking about, i saw battlepasses where you really have to play every day 2-3 hours minimum.
I'm just saying that battlepass, if it implemented correctly can be good sourse of income for both players and a company.

I have friends who've played games with that sort of function - the reason they no longer play them is the burnout that grind produced in very short order. I don't remember which games they were now - I *think* one of them was Fortnite but not positive - what I do remember is that they weren't the sort of games I'd ever touch with a hundred foot pole.

I've played TES since Arena's release in 1994; right now I'm playing ESO (along with Skyrim and Oblivion) until TES VI shows up (hopefully before I'm too old to play it). I feel that ESO had done a decent job of "joining" the TES family with an MMORPG. The sort of monetization you're pushing isn't the sort of thing I would want to see. The lootbox thing isn't really a problem - there's now a "dodge" (Endeavors), and it's all cosmetic stuff anyway. There's nothing in there that anyone needs in order to play.

FlopsyPrince · January 2022

The Crown Gem payments for duplicate

ive_wonder wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

I have no problems with the lootboxes and do in fact enjoy them. Why do you get to decide for me?

Making the argument that it triggers some people who have a gambling addiction feels unreasonable. Why should another's addiction impose on my option to purchase a lootbox? Are you saying we should ban all alcohol usage and sales because some people are alcoholics?

I don't think I agree with any of the suggestions; though I am indifferent to 2 and 6; and disagree with the rest.

Which part of lootboxes are you enjoying?

The campy Khajit as you open them?

FlopsyPrince · January 2022

They won't end these any time soon, unless it becomes legally required.

I do greatly wish that the Crown Gems paid for duplicate items were at or much closer to the true cost of the item. You should be able to buy an item in the same area for the cost, not require 4-10 of the duplicates to do that!

Sylvermynx · January 2022

tuxon wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

2-3. Some people even buy these things. why do you decide for the community?

[snip]

Not really. Each of us is right for our self alone. Dictating to others that yours (or his) is the "only right way" doesn't fly.

"There is no One True Way." Mercedes Lackey

[Except for in a game - then the "one true way" is that of the game company. In this case that's ZOS.]

[edited to remove quote]

ive_wonder · January 2022

Foto1 wrote: »

2-3. Some people even buy these things. why do you decide for the community?

Some people buy items items in lower-tier cashgrab MMORPG's but i don't expect such a massive name as TES to follow suit.

kargen27 · January 2022

Or keep it all and let the customers decide for themselves what they wish to purchase. Why are you against choice?

ive_wonder · January 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Not really. Each of us is right for our self alone. Dictating to others that yours (or his) is the "only right way" doesn't fly.

"There is no One True Way." Mercedes Lackey

[Except for in a game - then the "one true way" is that of the game company. In this case that's ZOS.]

I'm a paying customer and i think i have a right to criticize the product i'm paying for.

ive_wonder · January 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Or keep it all and let the customers decide for themselves what they wish to purchase. Why are you against choice?

Ironically i'm not against choice.
I'm advocating for you to have a choice, selection of items to buy directly instead of buying a chance to get the item.

Sylvermynx · January 2022

Actually, if you have that sort of issue with a product you're paying for, you can stop paying for it. In other words, vote with your wallet.

Those of us who enjoy the game, and have no problems with the crown store etc. will still be here, paying and playing.... And further than that, I can't say what I'd really like to.

Gaebriel0410 · January 2022

My biggest problem with the crown store is that whenever there's something I like, I usually have to wait for it to become available. The cycle of different costumes/mounts/cosmetics/stuff is very slow.

Limited time offers never work on me, since if I already exceeded my gaming/hobbies budget for the month, I just won't buy it.
So it would be nice if I could pick something up the next month instead of having to wait all eternity for it to become available again.

I have no problem with them having a store, and I understand the need for it in an MMO without a mandatory sub cost, but when I buy stuff it's gonna be on my terms.

I'm not a huge fan of loot crates either, but as far as ESO goes I think they're have a pretty reasonable model (though I almost never like apex mounts, so I judge it purely based on the other tiers). However I'd vastly prefer if they just threw out the crates and made every single item from all of them available for purchase seperately. If you're gonna have a store, fine, but just let me buy what I want whenever I want.

Chips_Ahoy · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Here's a developer's opinion on that whole topic it seems:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnPKjm84DxI&ab_channel=JohnGaming

I don't know who he is but I agree with what he says, he is also an argonian healer, it gives him extra points.

Mythgard1967 · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

I have no problems with the lootboxes and do in fact enjoy them. Why do you get to decide for me?

Making the argument that it triggers some people who have a gambling addiction feels unreasonable. Why should another's addiction impose on my option to purchase a lootbox? Are you saying we should ban all alcohol usage and sales because some people are alcoholics?

I don't think I agree with any of the suggestions; though I am indifferent to 2 and 6; and disagree with the rest.

Which part of lootboxes are you enjoying?

Hmmmm, this is mostly what I spend my Plus allowance on. I like the randomness of it.

I get useful things out of it and sell what is not useful back for Gems. I might get a new cosmetic; or I might not. When I get an Apex Radiant Mount (I do have a few of these...not a ton...but a few); they feel "special". I don't mourn the ones I do not get; but I enjoy the ones I do get.

I like that special. I like that not everyone has them. I like creating looks around them and that they give me a unique look that you dont see everywhere. And sometimes...I like the none radiants too...I got the coalsmoke forge horse...and it is cool....currently sporting a nice sedate look to go with it.

Getting some rare cosmetic does encourage me to incorporate it into a look. The same is true for most of the things I get in the boxes. I don't feel a pressing need to have them all but I do enjoy those I obtain.

For the really cool crates; I might by crowns to get more of the stuff. I might have items I really want (Hello Moarmer skin, I am looking at you) that do encourage me to buy more crowns to get more boxes; but that doesn't happen for every box.

So I guess; I like the feel of winning them item but I don't feel all discouraged with what I don't win. And if something is important enough for me to win???; I make a choice to buy more crates.....to be honest though...that doesnt happen often. Fish Scales...for sure....I did really want one of those mechanical spider mounts that I didn;t get and I love to see others running about on it. And who knows, when the crate returns; maybe I might win one (or not).

Do I know that this is a sales strategy that is thoroughly working on me as it is based on acquisition of rare items along with a dopamine rush?? YEP! I do. Doesn't chap my hide though. It also doesn't make me empty my bank out to get that next item either...I mean...it's not like it impacts how I play the game...it only impacts how I look while I play the game.

Ksariyu · January 2022

The way I see it is their monetization showcases pretty well how they feel about the game as a whole, and the customers they hope to attract.

You see even in this thread just how many people LIKE RNG lootboxes, and who LIKE the ability to buy things with RL money rather than earn them in-game. To some people, they work jobs in real life and don't want to spend that same level of time and energy just to enjoy a game. I don't entirely agree with their viewpoint, but I understand where it comes from. To many of them, it's enough to just wander in the world and get lost in doing whatever, rather than have to focus on something specific that they may or may not enjoy doing just for a cosmetic or something.

And that's who ZoS targets. They're not interested in the people who want gameplay-driven content. They want the people who will pay money to be entertained, and so that's what they provide.

Sylvermynx · January 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

The way I see it is their monetization showcases pretty well how they feel about the game as a whole, and the customers they hope to attract.

You see even in this thread just how many people LIKE RNG lootboxes, and who LIKE the ability to buy things with RL money rather than earn them in-game. To some people, they work jobs in real life and don't want to spend that same level of time and energy just to enjoy a game. I don't entirely agree with their viewpoint, but I understand where it comes from. To many of them, it's enough to just wander in the world and get lost in doing whatever, rather than have to focus on something specific that they may or may not enjoy doing just for a cosmetic or something.

And that's who ZoS targets. They're not interested in the people who want gameplay-driven content. They want the people who will pay money to be entertained, and so that's what they provide.

I outgrew gameplay driven content about 30 years ago. Perfectly happy to buy what I want with RL money, as I have enough to do so without issue. So yeah, I'm quite happy here. Seriously, it costs me three times as much RL money to drive an 80 mile round trip to be "entertained".

This game's a bargain. It would be a bargain at twice the price.

ive_wonder · January 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I outgrew gameplay driven content about 30 years ago. Perfectly happy to buy what I want with RL money, as I have enough to do so without issue. So yeah, I'm quite happy here. Seriously, it costs me three times as much RL money to drive an 80 mile round trip to be "entertained".

This game's a bargain. It would be a bargain at twice the price.

Except you are not buying what you want.
You buying only a chance to get what you want.

ive_wonder · January 2022

I'm honestly shocked.
When Bethesda tried to monetize mods it lead to a massive outrage and mods remained to be free.
At the same time with this game, so many cosmetic features not only locked behind a paywall, but even worse, behind the "surprise mechanics".
I am confusion.

TelvanniWizard · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

I'm honestly shocked.
When Bethesda tried to monetize mods it lead to a massive outrage and mods remained to be free.
At the same time with this game, so many cosmetic features not only locked behind a paywall, but even worse, behind the "surprise mechanics".
I am confusion.

Whales are gonna whale[snip]

[edited for baiting]

ive_wonder · January 2022

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Whales are gonna whale[snip]

*opens up bottle of scooma*
Actually you got me thinking.
I am a target audience. In a way that i'm buying subscription, and also ready to buy crowns for direct purchases.
So i'm from the audience who is ready to pay for subscription in my games.
But there is also an audience who buy lootboxes. I assume those people more likely to play free.
So there are already 2 target audiences, they overlap, but i doubt that number of players that will pay for both a subscription and for lootboxes is big.
Maybe that's why this game don't have stable playerbase who play this game consistently is really big, i doubt it.
Maybe if they opened up lootbox contents for direct purchases, made an adequate sale model, would rotate items more frequently it would open up more choices for people and some goals to work for (because fashion is endgame), there would be a healthier population in this game and it could actually compete with other top MMO's, like for real.
Also, lootboxes bad.
*fell under the table*

[edited to remove quote]

Sylvermynx · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I outgrew gameplay driven content about 30 years ago. Perfectly happy to buy what I want with RL money, as I have enough to do so without issue. So yeah, I'm quite happy here. Seriously, it costs me three times as much RL money to drive an 80 mile round trip to be "entertained".

This game's a bargain. It would be a bargain at twice the price.

Except you are not buying what you want.
You buying only a chance to get what you want.

I already said I don't buy crates, so when there's something I want available for crowns, I buy it. If it's in a crate and I have the SOE for it, I buy it that way.

Mythgard1967 · January 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

The way I see it is their monetization showcases pretty well how they feel about the game as a whole, and the customers they hope to attract.

You see even in this thread just how many people LIKE RNG lootboxes, and who LIKE the ability to buy things with RL money rather than earn them in-game. To some people, they work jobs in real life and don't want to spend that same level of time and energy just to enjoy a game. I don't entirely agree with their viewpoint, but I understand where it comes from. To many of them, it's enough to just wander in the world and get lost in doing whatever, rather than have to focus on something specific that they may or may not enjoy doing just for a cosmetic or something.

And that's who ZoS targets. They're not interested in the people who want gameplay-driven content. They want the people who will pay money to be entertained, and so that's what they provide.

Wow, that is very very insulting. I work a job in real life and have had for 38 years. When I started gaming in MMO's...I worked 2-4 jobs at once. Now, I work one job and typically work 12 hours a day 6 days a week because I am in healthcare.

I want to be entertained and I want gameplay-driven content.. That doesnt mean I am somehow lesser a person than you or that my job is less real than yours. I can pay for the content I enjoy in addition to Gameplay Driven content and you don't have to pay for content you do NOT enjoy in addition to your Gameplay Driven content. Neither one of us pays a subscription and we both get the content we want. This doesnt mean i am working some kind of a fake job and somehow enjoying a lesser gaming experience because in your opinion I am not interest in anything game driven.

Arunei · January 2022

As annoyed as I get with Crown Crates, especially as they're putting things like Skins and Costumes in the more expensive categories as of late, I don't think that'll ever change. What annoys me more is all the FOMO limited time sales, especially with how much some of these things (mostly houses) cost. You would think they'd get more money from making these things available all the time. It just makes so little sense to me.

hafgood · January 2022

Yeah its a little insulting and assumes those that work just want to wander.

I work. I've worked from long before I started playing the game (4 years ago) I'm on nearly 39,000 achievement points, have all but 7 skill points (PvP ranks) and have completed everything on vet except vateshran, Maelstrom & Black Rose Prison.

And I'm not interested in crown crates, rarely buy anything from the Crown Store except the odd house. I subscribe as I view ESO as my entertainment.

So no, I don't understand what you are saying at all.

ive_wonder · January 2022

Arunei wrote: »

As annoyed as I get with Crown Crates, especially as they're putting things like Skins and Costumes in the more expensive categories as of late, I don't think that'll ever change. What annoys me more is all the FOMO limited time sales, especially with how much some of these things (mostly houses) cost. You would think they'd get more money from making these things available all the time. It just makes so little sense to me.

Yeah, i was thinking about houses in that regard too.
Wouldn't they make more money from people who collect those types of things?
There would be far more opportunities for people to aquire gold and then to convert it into a crowns given crown store houses can be gifted.
People who buy them directly could just instantly buy anything they wanted, decorate, buy the next one etc.
A lot less stress, a lot more satisfaction.

karthrag_inak · January 2022

No.

FreeMaN_A · January 2022

Absolutely agree about lootboxes. It`s a gambling not important how to name it. Personally don`t care about other points because i don`t buy any items from crown store. Pay for new content, not for just pictures its my principled position, but if someone ok with it than ok...but gambling must be completely erradicated from gamedev industry.

ive_wonder · January 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I already said I don't buy crates, so when there's something I want available for crowns, I buy it. If it's in a crate and I have the SOE for it, I buy it that way.

Then wouldn't it be better if you could just buy what you want directly?

kargen27 · January 2022

"Looking at how much a single notable crown store house cost, i think it would be better if they were available all the time in the store.
It gives more reason for people to aquire gold and exchange it for crowns and in the long run it's better then a "once per year" availability model.
5. Make crown store items rotations more often.
6. Decrease crown cost / make sales more often."

People always suggest making these changes wo

ive_wonder wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I already said I don't buy crates, so when there's something I want available for crowns, I buy it. If it's in a crate and I have the SOE for it, I buy it that way.

Then wouldn't it be better if you could just buy what you want directly?

You can. We have endeavors and there is a gem system in place. That aside what price do you think the items in the loot boxes would need to be to make up for the loss of crown crate revenue? Would those items be available at all? We assume they would be but why? The are exclusive to the crates to get people to buy crates. If there are no crates what incentive is there for that much variety? If three apex mounts are available are people going to purchase all three or only the one they want want most? The accountants at ZoS probably have a real good answer for that question.

I want to comment about something others have said also. ZoS has a full team of accountants. They analyze data and determine strategies for increased revenue. If they saw getting rid of limited time offers would increase revenue they would do that. They have tracked the numbers for how many limited time items have sold compared to similar always available items. Limited time items work. That is why businesses across many sections offer limited time items and sales.

I've also seen players say if crowns were cheaper the company would make more. ZoS has from time to time a sale on crowns. They will have looked at the numbers. If their data told them lower prices would mean more revenue they would have done it.

JKorr · January 2022

ive_wonder wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I already said I don't buy crates, so when there's something I want available for crowns, I buy it. If it's in a crate and I have the SOE for it, I buy it that way.

Then wouldn't it be better if you could just buy what you want directly?

Yes, and no.

Yes, better for us. No, not better for ZOS marketing/monetization department.

There are threads where people are complaining about the low/infinitesimal chances of the specific radiant apex mount they desperately want to drop, and after they've spent a really really large amount of RL money buying crowns there should be some way to get the specific one they want. Which actually highlights why it would be bad for the monetization people. If you got the specific item you wanted, you wouldn't buy more crates until the next item that tempted you showed up.

Again; when the crates were a new thing, people posted on the forum about how they got all the things/mounts they wanted, and had enough gems from trade-back consumables and duplicates to buy items they wanted from the next season's crates. Shortly after these threads showed up, the Radiant Apex mounts that you couldn't buy with gems showed up. So yeah, they really want people to have to buy crates.Nothing in the crates makes your character faster, stronger, invincible/invisible/uber-leet god like, but they people who really want that glowy shining sparkle mount will chase the rng gremlins to get it.