nightblade rework idea?? (i would nerf them)

Sparxlost · January 2022

Okay SO

Nightblades are assassins with access to a unique form of magic with many practical applications for both mages and stamina users.

My only issue with nightblades right now is stealth uptime.. in a way more so the lack of a cooldown on the ability

If they added a cooldown then they could increase the duration of stealth significantly to promote the use of STEALTH instead of just "blinding the enemy at will"

with a nerf like this then nightblades would use stealth to either take advantage of unaware opponent or plural to cause chaos, or as a disengage tool after picking off enemies from a distance.

Needless to say nightblade would need some combo dps adjustments (probably single target damage buffs) in cyrodill for this to work for melee

ALSO

Nightblades are MASTERS of blood and illusion magic (which explains why they can stay invisible for so long i guess)

so nightblades can use blood magic as a passive too ex. maybe applying bleed to an enemy or enemies heals over time?

they are excellent in the illusion arts which explains their lengthy stealth uptime ( stealth once activated persists until broken and once broken has a cooldown of like 5 seconds. i think they made it so most aoe abilities wont pull nightblades out of stealth at some point so thats already a plus just be extra careful of magelight users lol)

Just an idea to make nightblade more assassin-e and maybe make the classes melee really benefit from their magic?

JUST AN IDEA I KNOW HOW MUCH YOU NIGHTBLADES LOVE STEALTHING

Artim_X · January 2022

A cooldown on shadowy disguise would not be fun. For instance, I can use curse, detect pots, mage light, etc. to pull a nightblade out of stealth. If I slot enough counters or spam a skill based counter, I can pull a nightblade out of stealth ad nauseam till my resources tap out, my detection from pots wears out, or I am pressured to go on the defensive.

A cooldown would result in many stealth focused nighblades losing an encounter the second they are revealed just once. The devs need to enable more varying playstyles and not take playstyles away.

Drdeath20 · January 2022

While I agree that there should be more of a penalty for losing your stealth engagement. Maybe start off with doubling the duration time but also double the cost. Thus it’s still relatively the same but is self regulated by resource pool.

Sparxlost · January 2022

if you are stealthed then you could wait to approach someone who is spamming magelight i didnt know detect pots were a thing but i did know there was a stealth detect set
Yes this change stealth would be used more tactically and with some direct damage buffs would make it more rewarding to do hit and runs rather than to smack someone down then to get someone else literally three seconds later why waste resources revealing when there might not be any blades around???? im assuming you know that bombers exist and its totally okay to be cautious spamming magelight on a resource or as a powerhouse utility for your small group. best thing to do as a bomber in this situation would be to wait it out or find a different time to attack the group when they are weak or most likely unsuspecting

i imagine two ways to use this sort of stealth (once used stealth is on your character until broken then it has a cooldown before it can be used again)
as a party starter for high aoe damage or to ambush that one guy you really hate
or as an escape tool for when your faction lost the keep and players are starting to notice you
i like how it seems so little people pay attention to the fact that crouching is a prettty cool thing that can hide you decently well and that detection radius is a mechanic that makes it harder for players to make you revealed even if they see you from a distance

Jaimeh · January 2022

Cloak is fine, there's a number of ways to counter it, and indirectly another way is how one builds their character which should also take into consideration surving a ganking. I think the problem is not that cloak is imbalanced but that people really hate that playstyle, and in that same vein, if they mess with cloak, they should mess with streak, an so on.

Araneae6537 · January 2022

Jaimeh wrote: »

Cloak is fine, there's a number of ways to counter it, and indirectly another way is how one builds their character which should also take into consideration surving a ganking. I think the problem is not that cloak is imbalanced but that people really hate that playstyle, and in that same vein, if they mess with cloak, they should mess with streak, an so on.

Agreed, you need to build to survive a gank and be situationally aware. Sometimes I’m caught off guard and kudos to the assassin, but especially on my healers if I keep up a shield, I can often survive to recover and my team takes them down!

OWLTHEMAD · January 2022

LEAVE SHADOWY DISGUISE ALONE.

seriously. Its perfect as is.

Buff dark cloak instead so that you have an alternative playstyle.

Sparxlost · January 2022

would you rather fight as or against a fly or something like a big cat?????
perfect does not mean appealing

Sparxlost · January 2022

big stealthy cat i mean

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

Nightblade is one of the worst classes for pvp. The only thing he can do is guning pugs. I don’t know in what reality can nightbleeds be a serious problem? Don't know ... I see kiters wardens or necros in heavy armor all the time. It's not a problem?

Sparxlost · January 2022

i just dont feel like cloak spam should be a thing.....

fred4 · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

My only issue with nightblades right now is stealth uptime.. in a way more so the lack of a cooldown on the ability

From my point of view as a 6 1/2 year veteran of the game this is the typical post of a new player who has issues dealing with nightblades. Have you actually played one? It's very helpful to see the other side by having a go at all classes in PvP yourself.

For ages and to this day, magblades have been the weaker variant in PvP outside of specialized roles, e.g. bombing. It's the stamblades that hit you really hard.

Stamblades can only cloak a handful of times in succession, because they don't have the mag sustain.
They're more likely dazzling you with Shadow Image.
If you want to perma-cloak, because you're not using Shadow Image, you have to invest quite heavily into mag sustain and speed to make that viable. This nerfs your damage and puts builds that can actually perma-cloak at a disadvantage.

There are many detection methods in this game. ZOS have IMO done a good job revising these recently. It has become less common to be accidentally uncloaked, but the hard counters to cloak were buffed. Some people use them, but it's a skill. Don't expect instant results from popping Magelight now and again.

I am an unashamed perma-cloaking Caluurion magblade main, but guess what: I am not the main demographic that's killing you. Not 1v1, if you are a decent player. I am a minority demographic and sick of uninformed posts, such as these, that believe cloak is the problem, when it's the outright power of stamblades that they most likely have the real issue with.

Why are stamblades stronger? This is a mystery I have not fully unravelled, but my stamblade has Incapped people for 14K and is not a super high damage spec. My magblade doesn't really come close. Going over 10K is rare. I can only guess it comes down to the factors that separate stamblade from magblade, even after recent balance changes, such as:

Targets that have uneven resistances invariably have more spell than physical resistance, due to light armor, Templar and Breton passives. The light armor penality also favors stamina attackers.
Stamblades get higher weapon damage stats from medium armor.
Stamblades get Sundered from Surprise Attack, which almost makes up for the light armor penetration advantage.
Stamblades take less damage, due to medium armor having better armor values and no physical damage penalty.
Stamblades have a heal, Rally, they can cast without uncloaking or uncrouching.
Stamblade gankers have flexibility of potions, because they can pre-buff Major Brutality with Rally. Magblade gankers are tied to Major Sorcery potions.
Stamblades with a bow get free Major Expedition from dodge rolling.
Stamblades naturally use Crouch in addition to Cloak. I've seen some insane (dual-wield) heavy attack values from crouch against players. Up to 12K (dual-wield combined) in CP, even without CP invested to buff light / heavy attacks and without Empower.
Stamblades now have access to Caluurion. Doylemish is another option that can work.

Here's some advice on how to deal with nightblades:

Always keep your buffs up.
Don't stray too far from your group (if any), but also don't be at the center (to avoid being bombed).
Always keep moving.
If you need to stand still to capture a flag, hold block.
Try Slippery CP and wear Zoal. Should a nightblade gank you, they will usually stun you. This way you'll automatically break free and stun them right back.
If on PC, get Miat's Combat Alerts addon. It will make a sound when you are attacked by a new player, notably when you are ganked, regardless of the type of attack. When you hear that sound, dodge roll.
If your class / spec isn't tanky enough, bite the bullet and choose (some or all) Well-Fitted over Impenetrable gear. This has fixed my stamina issues when dealing with nightblades, due to my personal playstyle / reflexes.
Since you're more likely to build for spell damage than magicka these days (unless magsorc), try Radiant Magelight for the anti-gank protection over Inner Light. Also for the improved detection.
Don't waste resources on searching for nightblades you can't see. Use Magelight / Camou Hunter to prevent nightblades from escaping when you see them close by. The exception is Streak. Streak is a great tool, once you get good at guessing where the nightblade has gone.
Look for the Shadow Image. If in doubt, turn around 180 degrees. The nightblade may have ported back behind you.
Be prepared to block or dodge roll when you hear the Grim Focus sound. Play a bit more defensively and keep your health up.
Spam skills that prevent the nightblade from escaping. Don't be too fancy. You don't necessarily have to do a full rotation, because nightblades tend to be squishy. Sweeps / Jabs. DK Breath. Brawler (if you're using that). Northern Storm. Bombard / Acid Spray. Lightning heavy attacks. DK Talons, Fossilize and Leap are also highly effective. You still need to be experienced, but this stuff works.
Realize that you're playing on the nightblade's terms. It's about kill or be killed. While the nightblade is visible, the fight may be decided very quickly one way or the other. While the nightblade is not visible, it's cat and mouse and you may have to be patient.
It's entirely reasonable to not be set up for nightblade hunting. Detection potions, the Sentry set, and so on may not suit you. In that case, be patient. Don't waste resources trying to go after nightblades you can't see. Conserve your resources, but keep your buffs up.

Rudrani · January 2022

i dont agree that stealth needs nerfing.

there are plenty of ways to counter stealth.

one very simple way is the pvp skil Flare. You dont need a whole build for "nighblade hunting" just use flare.

on top of that stealth is NOT that OP. when you are in it, you can't do anything other than run and hide. and no, it does not last long at all.

Xarc · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

[...]
My only issue with nightblades right now is stealth uptime..
[...]

still amusing how people consider NBs only by the invisibility cloak.
Have you ever played a NB seriously to call a nerf ?

It's a l2p issue, dude.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Cloak is fine, there's a number of ways to counter it, and indirectly another way is how one builds their character which should also take into consideration surving a ganking. I think the problem is not that cloak is imbalanced but that people really hate that playstyle, and in that same vein, if they mess with cloak, they should mess with streak, an so on.

Agreed

Brrrofski · January 2022

What cloak uptime?

99% of nightbladea in pvp are Stam.

You get like 3 cloaks at base.

Anything beyond that is someone investing in magica regen to get more off.

Which means they make sacrifices elsewhere in their build. Be it food, sets, or enchants.

biminirwb17_ESO · January 2022

"i didnt know detect pots were a thing"

The NB defense rests

BlossomDead · January 2022

I personally do agree this invisibility in PvP is unhealthy and should be revised. On my mag sorc I use magelight, however I need to continuously spam it otherwise I very rapidly lose sight of a NB which means I'm draining my magicka quite often.

It also doesn't make sense to have someone literally next to you that you can't see, maybe this should only work in PvE, but in PvP coming to close to an enemy should reveal you. Killing 20 players at a time with a good combo with almost 0 counterplay is not fun or fair, regardless of how good or bad a class is at PvP in general. NBs are very useful in ballgroups for this reason (which are extremely toxic gameplay IMHO) or, for instance, in flag chokepoints while taking keeps.

A good NB can dance in and out of invisibility around you while dodge rolling which also makes it almost impossible to target. I'm not sure how fun this mechanic is to your opponent, but to me it is quite frustrating as I feel it's an advantage that most classes don't posses and it beats the point of a PvP encounter.

But unless ZOS decides to actually have a truly separated PvP balance, I can hardly see any changes incoming.

biminirwb17_ESO · January 2022

There are invisibility potions that all classes can use, plus every class can go hidden by crouching. Sorc bombers are great, so are Necro harmony bombers. In fact many classes have a bomb especially magic flavors.

A 3 second cloak that is revealed by a mudcrab (yes they really do) is not your problem.

fred4 · January 2022

BlossomDead wrote: »

I personally do agree this invisibility in PvP is unhealthy and should be revised. On my mag sorc I use magelight, however I need to continuously spam it otherwise I very rapidly lose sight of a NB which means I'm draining my magicka quite often.

Magsorc is the class probably most suited to hunting and killing NBs, other than another NB. You do need detection potions, Streak and, above all, experience, though.

It also doesn't make sense to have someone literally next to you that you can't see, maybe this should only work in PvE, but in PvP coming to close to an enemy should reveal you. Killing 20 players at a time with a good combo with almost 0 counterplay is not fun or fair

If you're talking about bombing, it's a one-trick pony playstyle. Bombers typically can't do anything else. Part of the rock, paper, scissors element of ESO.

NBs are very useful in ballgroups for this reason

Err ... what? I've certainly seen ballgroups ulti-dump, even half of them running Proxy Det, but you don't need to be a nightblade for that. In general the playstyle that comes with Cloak requires damage avoidance and is not well suited to swarming around in the middle of a ball group in my experience.

(which are extremely toxic gameplay IMHO)

ESO is a schoolyard playground. Bullying abounds and groups, especially organised groups, are OP. I'm not sure that's toxic per se. Toxic people are toxic people. On the other hand, if you are taking the Cyrodiil war seriously, pushing for emp or trying to win the campaign, it's just good strategy. Most fights are uneven and unfair. That's just the nature of an open world MMO.

A good NB can dance in and out of invisibility around you while dodge rolling which also makes it almost impossible to target.

That's mainly a problem for single-target classes, such as your magsorc, but also for nightblades themselves! Everything is dodgeable, or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the things that are actually dodgeable from a magsorc are basically your spammable, Frags, and Overload. You can apply your Curse and Mage's Fury through dodge rolling, which means you're only looking for that one successful hit to finish off your target. Make them stand still and block by dumping a meteor. Stun them with Streak. Frag them. Like I said, I play a magblade. The class that actually has good cloak sustain does not have good dodge roll sustain. Overloading, streaking sorcs with a detection potion are some of my most feared opponents, because I do rely on Cloak and I can't infinitely dodge roll. I hate to say it, but it's l2p.

I'm not sure how fun this mechanic is to your opponent, but to me it is quite frustrating as I feel it's an advantage that most classes don't posses and it beats the point of a PvP encounter.

Again: Says the magsorc. l2p, man.

The_Lex · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

i didnt know detect pots were a thing

Here's the problem. If you want to suggest a skill nerf, you should probably know everything there is to know about said skill and its counters. Otherwise, the suggestion feels like a knee-jerk reaction to being killed by a nightblade.

BlossomDead · January 2022

fred4 wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

I personally do agree this invisibility in PvP is unhealthy and should be revised. On my mag sorc I use magelight, however I need to continuously spam it otherwise I very rapidly lose sight of a NB which means I'm draining my magicka quite often.

Magsorc is the class probably most suited to hunting and killing NBs, other than another NB. You do need detection potions, Streak and, above all, experience, though.

It also doesn't make sense to have someone literally next to you that you can't see, maybe this should only work in PvE, but in PvP coming to close to an enemy should reveal you. Killing 20 players at a time with a good combo with almost 0 counterplay is not fun or fair

If you're talking about bombing, it's a one-trick pony playstyle. Bombers typically can't do anything else. Part of the rock, paper, scissors element of ESO.

NBs are very useful in ballgroups for this reason

Err ... what? I've certainly seen ballgroups ulti-dump, even half of them running Proxy Det, but you don't need to be a nightblade for that. In general the playstyle that comes with Cloak requires damage avoidance and is not well suited to swarming around in the middle of a ball group in my experience.

(which are extremely toxic gameplay IMHO)

ESO is a schoolyard playground. Bullying abounds and groups, especially organised groups, are OP. I'm not sure that's toxic per se. Toxic people are toxic people. On the other hand, if you are taking the Cyrodiil war seriously, pushing for emp or trying to win the campaign, it's just good strategy. Most fights are uneven and unfair. That's just the nature of an open world MMO.

A good NB can dance in and out of invisibility around you while dodge rolling which also makes it almost impossible to target.

That's mainly a problem for single-target classes, such as your magsorc, but also for nightblades themselves! Everything is dodgeable, or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the things that are actually dodgeable from a magsorc are basically your spammable, Frags, and Overload. You can apply your Curse and Mage's Fury through dodge rolling, which means you're only looking for that one successful hit to finish off your target. Make them stand still and block by dumping a meteor. Stun them with Streak. Frag them. Like I said, I play a magblade. The class that actually has good cloak sustain does not have good dodge roll sustain. Overloading, streaking sorcs with a detection potion are some of my most feared opponents, because I do rely on Cloak and I can't infinitely dodge roll. I hate to say it, but it's l2p.

I'm not sure how fun this mechanic is to your opponent, but to me it is quite frustrating as I feel it's an advantage that most classes don't posses and it beats the point of a PvP encounter.

Again: Says the magsorc. l2p, man.

I'll agree we disagree on the l2p issue on this one. It's more of a mechanic I don't enjoy. It's either I like it or I don't, and it's the latter. Nothing to debate really.

However I did encounter NBs that were dodging so quick it was impossible to target them with my staff for instance. Rarely, but they're there.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 2022

The only way a cooldown could work effectively is if:

A: Once activated it lasts forever until you deal damage, take damage or are revealed.

B: The first 3 seconds of activation give you unrevealable.

C: While stealthed your other assassination skills are buffed or have a special bonus when used from stealth.

D : The cooldown is only 4 seconds or so.

This would encourage more tactical play when attacking from stealth while still allowing it to function as an escape. But to be honest, I don’t think any CD is needed. Besides stealth has been nerfed over and over again over the years. Any more nerfing and you may as well ditch the skill altogether. Stealth is the core skill of an NB. No more nerfs.

Amottica · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

My only issue with nightblades right now is stealth uptime.. in a way more so the lack of a cooldown on the ability

Besides that ESO does not seem to use CDs on skills it seems that the NB skill for stealth would need to be significantly longer for it to be useful if it did have such a CD. What is it, about 3 seconds of stealth? That is not very useful if it has a cooldown to use it again.

In the short time I have been playing the game have found there are things in the game that will pull and even prevent a NB from entering stealth long enough to finish them off. I do not see there is an issue here as that seems to be very fair.

Amottica · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

i just dont feel like cloak spam should be a thing.....

Pull them out of cloak. It stops being a thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

Sparxlost wrote: »

if you are stealthed then you could wait to approach someone who is spamming magelight i didnt know detect pots were a thing but i did know there was a stealth detect set
Yes this change stealth would be used more tactically and with some direct damage buffs would make it more rewarding to do hit and runs rather than to smack someone down then to get someone else literally three seconds later why waste resources revealing when there might not be any blades around???? im assuming you know that bombers exist and its totally okay to be cautious spamming magelight on a resource or as a powerhouse utility for your small group. best thing to do as a bomber in this situation would be to wait it out or find a different time to attack the group when they are weak or most likely unsuspecting

i imagine two ways to use this sort of stealth (once used stealth is on your character until broken then it has a cooldown before it can be used again)
as a party starter for high aoe damage or to ambush that one guy you really hate
or as an escape tool for when your faction lost the keep and players are starting to notice you
i like how it seems so little people pay attention to the fact that crouching is a prettty cool thing that can hide you decently well and that detection radius is a mechanic that makes it harder for players to make you revealed even if they see you from a distance

Then no offense, but you are in no position to address the balance of this skill.

NB cloak is perfectly fine as is. No reason to touch it. Most the people that I see wanting to increase the length are PVEers that simply want cloak to be a one button work around for all nefarious activity. I will never support that.

In PVP, where it is actually used in combat, it is very powerful, but it has counters. If it had a cooldown, it would be useless. The idea of cloak spam is to force the NB to expend resources while staying cloaked. It works very well.

Sparxlost · January 2022

cloak is the only thing keeping nightblades alive and that is not how it should be although it should still be powerful enough to be used in most nightblade builds

Sparxlost · January 2022

Increasing the length of stealth once cast indefinitely until broken then having a cooldown of about five seconds shouldnt be a problem it would force devs to make the rest of their kit on par defensively and offensively with other classes

then the problem with stealth detecting was it not a problem when you were cloak spamming?? just make sure you are able to get out of their optimal range before using cloak or else you might have to turn and fight (if it were a 1vx then obviously relying on cloak was a terrible idea unless you are at range)

you might also make the argument that maybe you wouldnt be able to distance yourself because of gap closers???
the fix for that would be to reduce the range of some gap closers slightly so that people with good retreat timing can actually not get griefed

Sparxlost · January 2022

detect pots are a thing but it functions the same as magelight and other reaveal mechanics with a longer duration? theres also a set that does the same thing but the only nightblades that are being hurt are the ones who arent careful you know that people might be wary of resource or gate bombers you know that towers are "Kite City" any good stealth player knows to pick off opponents when they are too busy to look for them..

Sparxlost · January 2022

i guess flare is a good argument though..

buttaface · January 2022

fred4 wrote: »

Magsorc is the class probably most suited to hunting and killing NBs, other than another NB.

Will wager defensive rune is not and has never been on one of that player's bars.

KhajiitLivesMatter · January 2022

Drdeath20 wrote: »

While I agree that there should be more of a penalty for losing your stealth engagement. Maybe start off with doubling the duration time but also double the cost. Thus it’s still relatively the same but is self regulated by resource pool.

yea great idea lets kill stam blade which normaly have like 10-13k mag and give there only defensive skill a cost of 6k...