Below 70.000 DPS is low for a dungeon on normal

Gleitfrosch · January 2022

The Title is what I had to read in a Dungeon on normal, not even a difficult one. And now, that I (hopefully) have you attention allow me to make the following proposal.

First a few facts:
When i write "you", I do not mean everyone, but people like the person who wrote the topic sentence.
Players have different goals and intentions, therefore this is not going to be a rant about player whose goal is to reach max DPS.
I play for fun and the experience, which means I use skills which I feel comfortable with and can enjoy most.
I know that I do not do a lot damage but also I do not matchmake for veteran dungeons. Just tested it, have around 34.000 DPS, I know thats almost nothing.
I could rebuild my character based on some guides to reach far higher DPS, I already did it once but the skills and requried playstyle felt not right for me, so I decided to switch back to my preffered playstyle.

The proposal:
I do not matchmake for veteran dungeons because I know I would not be a real help there.
You accept that when you matchmake for a normal dungeon, there will be players who do not have a high DPS output (for different reasons) and please also avoid calling these players noobs or similar. Would be also nice if you still stay in the group and finish the dungeon and do not just leave the group.

do we have a deal?

VaranisArano · January 2022

The average range of DPS I see from damage dealers in normal dungeons is between 5k to 15k. Some people have more.

It's pretty rare that groups in that range have issues completing the dungeons. It might take a long time if everyone in the group is doing in the 5k range, but it usually does get done as long as people learn the mechanics.

perfiction · January 2022

70k? What a joke.

Everyone knows that you need at least 105k parse to be able to get through character selection screen.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

34k is plenty of dps for a vet dungeon. The only time you'd need more is for vet dlc trials and some of the achievements. That is enough dps to do them comfortably and meet all of the dps checks.

Adremal · January 2022

I have no idea why some players get upset over others' low DPS in normal dungeons. If they can't breeze through a normal dungeon alone and quickly perhaps they shouldn't be complaining about others (they could maybe give them constructive pointers instead of berating them instead). The queue penalty is also longer than pretty much any normal dungeon done basically solo (assuming the others' DPS is 5k each or so), so I don't get people who ragequit if someone is a newbie either.
Also as has been said above half of 70k DPS is enough for vet dungeons unless going for some DLC HMs/achievements.

Jazraena · January 2022

The mere idea of people needing to achieve 70k DPS in every bossfight is utterly hilarious.

Group composition and the comparably low health of normal dungeon bosses will result in such massive variance in individual DPS once you eclipse a certain number that putting any further requirement on this is utterly pointless even if we ignore that you can casually finish every normal dungeon with 30k Total Group DPS.

Whoever told you you needed 70k was just arrogant and oblivious. Ignore them.

PizzaCat82 · January 2022

The fact that someone checked a DPS output in a normal dungeon means that they are in the wrong dungeon.

Grandchamp1989 · January 2022

70k on a fresh level 10 would be pretty impressive I'm not gonna lie.

Vevvev · January 2022

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

The fact that someone checked a DPS output in a normal dungeon means that they are in the wrong dungeon.

Maybe they thought they were vet? I remember doing nWGT thinking it was vWGT and thought my DPS were super amazing till the first boss when it hit me XD

colossalvoids · January 2022

People who can't pull their weight would obviously jump on people around with any idea they had in mind, it's what you have to deal with if running with randoms.

Sawbones194 · January 2022

I don't know how much damage I do

Gleitfrosch · January 2022

perfiction wrote: »

70k? What a joke.

Everyone knows that you need at least 105k parse to be able to get through character selection screen.

I knew it!

Ok, I will delete my ESO account and go back to hello kitty online, does anyone know the current DPS requirements for that game?

Vevvev · January 2022

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

70k? What a joke.

Everyone knows that you need at least 105k parse to be able to get through character selection screen.

I knew it!

Ok, I will delete my ESO account and go back to hello kitty online, does anyone know the current DPS requirements for that game?

I don't know, but I do know to compete you need to purchase the Hello Kitty AR-15 skin in order to do qualify as a DPS.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 2022

70k normal dungeons haha. 40k for even vet trials is regarded as minimum by most guilds. Normal dungeons can be done at level 10 for a reason. If I had 70k plus DPS on a normal dungeon I wouldn’t even need to group.

Redguards_Revenge · January 2022

perfiction wrote: »

70k? What a joke.

Everyone knows that you need at least 105k parse to be able to get through character selection screen.

can you teach me how to parse? I want 105 k with simply hundings rage, monster helm and truth (the set truth). No mythics. How can I do it?

Vaoh · January 2022

There’s two significant issues with dungeons.

1. DLC dungeons are much longer than base game dungeons. This is why many players leave group when dungeons like Bloodroot Forge or Unhallowed Grave are chosen. This is made worse by the second issue...

2. DLC dungeons are way harder than base game dungeons. You will have a harder time in most Normal DLC dungeons than you will in Veteran base game dungeons.

Normal and Veteran difficulties in base game dungeons should be representative of all dungeons imo. The much harder “Veteran” difficulty that we see in DLC dungeons should be labeled as “Master” difficulty. Then balance the Normal, Veteran, and Master difficulties to be represented evenly in all dungeons.

It’s ridiculous that queuing for Normal or Veteran right now can lead to such a huge range of difficulties. Vet Fungal Grotto 1 isn’t even remotely comparable to Vet Castle Thorn lol.

ForeverJenn · January 2022

Yes, 70k group dps in a norm is fine. But....

If I wanna leave a group, I will.

AlnilamE · January 2022

OP, I hope you told them they were really funny, because that's HILARIOUS!

As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons.

Vaoh wrote: »

There’s two significant issues with dungeons.

1. DLC dungeons are much longer than base game dungeons. This is why many players leave group when dungeons like Bloodroot Forge or Unhallowed Grave are chosen. This is made worse by the second issue...

They are about 7 minutes longer on average from my data so far.

3. DLC dungeons are way harder than base game dungeons. You will have a harder time in most Normal DLC dungeons than you will in Veteran base game dungeons.

Not my experience at all. I've been zipping through normal DLCs with my healer. I don't think I could do a vet base dungeon in the time it takes to get through Unhallowed Grave if it's not one of the baby dungeons.

Normal and Veteran difficulties in base game dungeons should be representative of all dungeons imo. The much harder “Veteran” difficulty that we see in DLC dungeons should be labeled as “Master” difficulty. Then balance the Normal, Veteran, and Master difficulties to be represented evenly in all dungeons.

It’s ridiculous that queuing for Normal or Veteran right now can lead to such a huge range of difficulties. Vet Fungal Grotto 1 isn’t even remotely comparable to Vet Castle Thorn lol.

So there should be no learning curve for dungeons at all? You are either ready for them or you are not? The way they are designed now, they scale in difficulty as you go up the zones.

Vet Fungal Grotto I is a vet version of what was once a level 10 dungeon. The easiest mechanics in the game to start teaching you about them. How does Vet Castle Thorn compare to vet CoA II, for example?

Vaoh · January 2022

AlnilamE wrote: »

OP, I hope you told them they were really funny, because that's HILARIOUS!

As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons.

Vaoh wrote: »

There’s two significant issues with dungeons.

1. DLC dungeons are much longer than base game dungeons. This is why many players leave group when dungeons like Bloodroot Forge or Unhallowed Grave are chosen. This is made worse by the second issue...

They are about 7 minutes longer on average from my data so far.

3. DLC dungeons are way harder than base game dungeons. You will have a harder time in most Normal DLC dungeons than you will in Veteran base game dungeons.

Not my experience at all. I've been zipping through normal DLCs with my healer. I don't think I could do a vet base dungeon in the time it takes to get through Unhallowed Grave if it's not one of the baby dungeons.

Normal and Veteran difficulties in base game dungeons should be representative of all dungeons imo. The much harder “Veteran” difficulty that we see in DLC dungeons should be labeled as “Master” difficulty. Then balance the Normal, Veteran, and Master difficulties to be represented evenly in all dungeons.

It’s ridiculous that queuing for Normal or Veteran right now can lead to such a huge range of difficulties. Vet Fungal Grotto 1 isn’t even remotely comparable to Vet Castle Thorn lol.

So there should be no learning curve for dungeons at all? You are either ready for them or you are not? The way they are designed now, they scale in difficulty as you go up the zones.

Vet Fungal Grotto I is a vet version of what was once a level 10 dungeon. The easiest mechanics in the game to start teaching you about them. How does Vet Castle Thorn compare to vet CoA II, for example?

I think any data that tells you DLC dungeons are only 7 minutes longer than base game dungeons covers way too many scenarios to be a reliable interpretation.

This is 100% dependent on the group and the dungeons themselves. I can do all dungeon no deaths easily with friends of mine but this changes dramatically with randoms. Recently I did a Bane of Thorns in 23min which is not an amazing time but compare that to Fungal Grotto which maybe takes like 5min? It’s a world of difference between these dungeons but they are under the same group finder search.

Having a huge variety of difficulties thrown together under “Veteran” is weird. Not sure why not just rebalance to fix the issue w/ a new difficulty, or simply have a checkbox to enable/disable having random dungeon finder include these DLC dungeons due to the huge difficulty variance.

AlnilamE · January 2022

Vaoh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

OP, I hope you told them they were really funny, because that's HILARIOUS!

As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons.

Vaoh wrote: »

There’s two significant issues with dungeons.

1. DLC dungeons are much longer than base game dungeons. This is why many players leave group when dungeons like Bloodroot Forge or Unhallowed Grave are chosen. This is made worse by the second issue...

They are about 7 minutes longer on average from my data so far.

3. DLC dungeons are way harder than base game dungeons. You will have a harder time in most Normal DLC dungeons than you will in Veteran base game dungeons.

Not my experience at all. I've been zipping through normal DLCs with my healer. I don't think I could do a vet base dungeon in the time it takes to get through Unhallowed Grave if it's not one of the baby dungeons.

Normal and Veteran difficulties in base game dungeons should be representative of all dungeons imo. The much harder “Veteran” difficulty that we see in DLC dungeons should be labeled as “Master” difficulty. Then balance the Normal, Veteran, and Master difficulties to be represented evenly in all dungeons.

It’s ridiculous that queuing for Normal or Veteran right now can lead to such a huge range of difficulties. Vet Fungal Grotto 1 isn’t even remotely comparable to Vet Castle Thorn lol.

So there should be no learning curve for dungeons at all? You are either ready for them or you are not? The way they are designed now, they scale in difficulty as you go up the zones.

Vet Fungal Grotto I is a vet version of what was once a level 10 dungeon. The easiest mechanics in the game to start teaching you about them. How does Vet Castle Thorn compare to vet CoA II, for example?

I think any data that tells you DLC dungeons are only 7 minutes longer than base game dungeons covers way too many scenarios to be a reliable interpretation.

This is 100% dependent on the group and the dungeons themselves. I can do all dungeon no deaths easily with friends of mine but this changes dramatically with randoms. Recently I did a Bane of Thorns in 23min which is not an amazing time but compare that to Fungal Grotto which maybe takes like 5min? It’s a world of difference between these dungeons but they are under the same group finder search.

Having a huge variety of difficulties thrown together under “Veteran” is weird. Not sure why not just rebalance to fix the issue w/ a new difficulty, or simply have a checkbox to enable/disable having random dungeon finder include these DLC dungeons due to the huge difficulty variance.

For clarification, my data is for random normals, not vets. For vet, I'm sure the time difference will be greater.

My data is being collected by queueing for a random normal on my Templar healer, always by myself, and seeing what I get. I'm aiming for 500 runs, but am currently at 84. But everytime one of these threads comes up, I look at the preliminaries, and the averages have held so far.

Vaoh · January 2022

AlnilamE wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

OP, I hope you told them they were really funny, because that's HILARIOUS!

As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons.

Vaoh wrote: »

There’s two significant issues with dungeons.

1. DLC dungeons are much longer than base game dungeons. This is why many players leave group when dungeons like Bloodroot Forge or Unhallowed Grave are chosen. This is made worse by the second issue...

They are about 7 minutes longer on average from my data so far.

3. DLC dungeons are way harder than base game dungeons. You will have a harder time in most Normal DLC dungeons than you will in Veteran base game dungeons.

Not my experience at all. I've been zipping through normal DLCs with my healer. I don't think I could do a vet base dungeon in the time it takes to get through Unhallowed Grave if it's not one of the baby dungeons.

Normal and Veteran difficulties in base game dungeons should be representative of all dungeons imo. The much harder “Veteran” difficulty that we see in DLC dungeons should be labeled as “Master” difficulty. Then balance the Normal, Veteran, and Master difficulties to be represented evenly in all dungeons.

It’s ridiculous that queuing for Normal or Veteran right now can lead to such a huge range of difficulties. Vet Fungal Grotto 1 isn’t even remotely comparable to Vet Castle Thorn lol.

So there should be no learning curve for dungeons at all? You are either ready for them or you are not? The way they are designed now, they scale in difficulty as you go up the zones.

Vet Fungal Grotto I is a vet version of what was once a level 10 dungeon. The easiest mechanics in the game to start teaching you about them. How does Vet Castle Thorn compare to vet CoA II, for example?

I think any data that tells you DLC dungeons are only 7 minutes longer than base game dungeons covers way too many scenarios to be a reliable interpretation.

This is 100% dependent on the group and the dungeons themselves. I can do all dungeon no deaths easily with friends of mine but this changes dramatically with randoms. Recently I did a Bane of Thorns in 23min which is not an amazing time but compare that to Fungal Grotto which maybe takes like 5min? It’s a world of difference between these dungeons but they are under the same group finder search.

Having a huge variety of difficulties thrown together under “Veteran” is weird. Not sure why not just rebalance to fix the issue w/ a new difficulty, or simply have a checkbox to enable/disable having random dungeon finder include these DLC dungeons due to the huge difficulty variance.

For clarification, my data is for random normals, not vets. For vet, I'm sure the time difference will be greater.

My data is being collected by queueing for a random normal on my Templar healer, always by myself, and seeing what I get. I'm aiming for 500 runs, but am currently at 84. But everytime one of these threads comes up, I look at the preliminaries, and the averages have held so far.

FYI I’m not trying to be mean at all. I wish I was able to have an addon for data like that but I’m on console

Good players will nuke enemies in Normal dungeons. DLC dungeons are only longer due to the length of the dungeon and the time wasted from forced mechanics in fights like Castle Thorn last boss, Icereach last boss, Frostvault last boss, etc.

On Veteran these good players can still nuke a lot of the base game dungeons but this is not always the case for DLC dungeons. Bosses have more health, there are more un-skippable mechanics, and overall it is just designed to take more time as a whole. It’s an entirely different difficulty level and if the group is not good then the difference is even larger.

Your data is still awesome to have but it’s just a much more noticeable difference in Vet.

Just checked and even the speed achievements recognize this.... 15min for speed in Fungal 1 but 30min for most DLC dungeons.

Everest_Lionheart · January 2022

perfiction wrote: »

70k? What a joke.

Everyone knows that you need at least 105k parse to be able to get through character selection screen.

Best thing you will read here all day!

gariondavey · January 2022

I've never done less than 93k dps on anything I've ever done, even crafting writs. It gets messy, but it is what it is...

starkerealm · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

34k is plenty of dps for a vet dungeon. The only time you'd need more is for vet dlc trials and some of the achievements. That is enough dps to do them comfortably and meet all of the dps checks.

One DPS check in the game requires 40k solo to clear. Most cap out at 30k per player. You may need 70k to force a given boss to skip stages, or you might want 70k for speed run (because you're going to lose time somewhere else), but yeah, even then, 34k is more than enough to clear anything in the game, including vet trials, if you know what you're doing.

EDIT: Granted, more DPS in a vet trial will take weight off the tanks and healers, which I fully approve of. It's not like you should get to 30k and say, "I'm king of the world." More DPS will, almost always, make things easier for yourself and your party. But, outside of vet trial achievement hunting, 34k is above the fail threshold game-wide.

Mushroomancer · January 2022

It seems clear to me that this person was spewing some A grade garbage. Your dps is more than fine, hell it should be even for most Vet Dungeons.
Since you seem to be speaking on more general terms, and just taking this person as an example, when a person leaves a dungeon run, I don't think you can immediately chalk it up to them being disappointed with your dps. There could be a variety of reasons, but I think the biggest one I see most often is that they were expecting a regular lenght dungeon and got a DLC one or CoA2, which is basically the same length as one, and even longer than some. And to be honest, even though I pretty much always see any dungeon to completion, unless the group disbands or there are some seriously unberable people in it, sometimes I can't really blame them. Having to go through a lot of RNDs to farm transmutes and getting a long dungeon one too many times (which is most likely gonna happen with how many DLC dungeons there are now) is pretty frustrating.
Regardless of that though, anyone is free to leave a dungeon, and it's a random normal, screw them, just keep going and you'll complete it just fine.

bmnoble · January 2022

So long as when I am tanking or healing the damage dealers I get are managing around 15 - 20K dps each in normal I got no issue with them.

But more often then not I get two damage dealers who manage somewhere around 5 - 10K each, its still doable for most base game dungeons just takes longer but if I get a 2nd harder version base game dungeon or DLC dungeon I probably won't stick around with that group.

I don't know who told you that 70K+ nonsense to do normal dungeons, that kinda DPS is for vet trials and vet DLC dungeons and achievement runs none of which a player should magically expect a random group they get to all be onboard for or even being capable of managing.

Ascarl · January 2022

This is getting old.

Darrett · January 2022

I only do about 20k and it seems decent enough to complete a lot of content.

kargen27 · January 2022

"As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons."

If you pay attention to mechanics you can get through all of them with that kind of DPS. You can get through most with 20k if you pay attention to mechanics. Players requiring higher numbers want to skip mechanics and the higher DPS is needed when a group wants to ignore mechanics.

sajackson · January 2022

Why does anyone care what DPS people are doing in a normal dungeon? I can pretty much heal the mobs and bosses to death...

starkerealm · January 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

"As others have said, if you can parse 39k and you have another DPS at the same level, you can get through a lot of the vet dungeons."

If you pay attention to mechanics you can get through all of them with that kind of DPS. You can get through most with 20k if you pay attention to mechanics. Players requiring higher numbers want to skip mechanics and the higher DPS is needed when a group wants to ignore mechanics.

It's worth remembering, that virtually no one can DPS what they parse. Partially, because parses have (mostly) shifted to using the trial dummies, which simulate a perfectly configured raid group (presenting numbers that are often impossible to reproduce in 4 player content), and even before that, odds are you won't be able to perfectly execute your rotation while in live content.

So, if someone is pulling 40k on a trial dummy, it's quite possible their live DPS is ~20-25k (I'm estimating here, I could be way off.)

If they're pulling 70-80k on a trial dummy, and can keep their head about them in live content, I wouldn't worry about their DPS.