Some vet DLC dungeons could use a buff
Grandchamp1989
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Comparatively some DLC dungeons are just MUCH easier than others in terms of difficulty.
This is not a discussion on player dmg but instead a discussion on how some dungeons are just objectively MUCH easier than others.
Personly I wasn't a huge fan when Zos nerfed Moonhunter Keep and Frostvault a few patches ago, I thought they were fine and think they're maybe too easy now.
But even with the massive nerfs those dungeons took on Vet, they're still far harder than certain others.
Usually for difficulty people tend to point for White Gold Tower as the easiest vet dungeon.
But even though it is some of the oldest DLC content in the game, the moving lightning still regularly kill people in PUGs.
I would argue there's content far easier.
Icereach
If you don't take HM on the final boss there's literally no challenge in this entire dungeon, I would argue even version 2 of basegame vets are often more deadly.
-Don't stand in front of the giant when he's red
-Burn the Hagraven or unfreeze the stranglers if dmg/healing is low
-Burn the flesh atro or kill the ghosts if dmg is low
-Burn the revenant, kill atros
-Final boss burn witches....
The entire dungeon is a stack n' smack, there's no real mechs to worry about, no one-shots, nothing forcing you away from parsing the bosses. I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
Black Drake Villa
Literally the only challenge in this entire dungeon is 1 add - the Salemanders. Avoid enraging Salemanders and you clear even the hardmode so easy.
Probably the easiest final boss hardmode fight in the game (unless you go for the final secret boss).
Cauldron
The only somewhat challenging fight is the Taskmaster, which can be completely nullified if someone got a ranged interrupt.
Pretty much everyone I knew got the hardmode done first day and often first try...
Cradle of Shadows
Aside from having to navigate the dark labyrinth there's very little challenge. Stand in the light, burn things...
If we compare these to their sibling dungeons like Moonhunter (even the nerfed version) or Stone Garden, Dread Cellar, Lair of Maarselok and Moongrave Fane there just seems to be objectively more reason a group would wipe on those than the above mentioned.
While I know we're in a phase of nerfed vet content, I would very much like for the above mentioned dungeons to be buffed to be on par with their siblings in therms of difficulty.
This is not a discussion on player dmg but instead a discussion on how some dungeons are just objectively MUCH easier than others.
Personly I wasn't a huge fan when Zos nerfed Moonhunter Keep and Frostvault a few patches ago, I thought they were fine and think they're maybe too easy now.
But even with the massive nerfs those dungeons took on Vet, they're still far harder than certain others.
Usually for difficulty people tend to point for White Gold Tower as the easiest vet dungeon.
But even though it is some of the oldest DLC content in the game, the moving lightning still regularly kill people in PUGs.
I would argue there's content far easier.
Icereach
If you don't take HM on the final boss there's literally no challenge in this entire dungeon, I would argue even version 2 of basegame vets are often more deadly.
-Don't stand in front of the giant when he's red
-Burn the Hagraven or unfreeze the stranglers if dmg/healing is low
-Burn the flesh atro or kill the ghosts if dmg is low
-Burn the revenant, kill atros
-Final boss burn witches....
The entire dungeon is a stack n' smack, there's no real mechs to worry about, no one-shots, nothing forcing you away from parsing the bosses. I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
Black Drake Villa
Literally the only challenge in this entire dungeon is 1 add - the Salemanders. Avoid enraging Salemanders and you clear even the hardmode so easy.
Probably the easiest final boss hardmode fight in the game (unless you go for the final secret boss).
Cauldron
The only somewhat challenging fight is the Taskmaster, which can be completely nullified if someone got a ranged interrupt.
Pretty much everyone I knew got the hardmode done first day and often first try...
Cradle of Shadows
Aside from having to navigate the dark labyrinth there's very little challenge. Stand in the light, burn things...
If we compare these to their sibling dungeons like Moonhunter (even the nerfed version) or Stone Garden, Dread Cellar, Lair of Maarselok and Moongrave Fane there just seems to be objectively more reason a group would wipe on those than the above mentioned.
While I know we're in a phase of nerfed vet content, I would very much like for the above mentioned dungeons to be buffed to be on par with their siblings in therms of difficulty.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm going to have to disagree. I think those dungeons are fine the way they are. And letting you roll through those stupid lasers in Frostvault was probably the best change ever.
That minotaur in Black Drake Villa hits hard. Unless you're a tank (a real tank) or dodge him you're going to die. And the last boss can keep you on your toes with his nasty fire damage. If you don't react in a reasonable amount of time, you're going to die.
Cauldron also has some pretty good challenge. The last boss does a lot of damage and has fire beams that circle the arena that literally melt you instantly if you don't avoid them. So if you go into this fight not knowing what you are doing you're going to die.
Cradle of shadows also has some pretty nasty bosses. A lot of them have moves that hit hard and can easily one-shot even a tank if they aren't careful.
So I'm not like some who want a dungeon so hard they're frustrating. These are just about right, challenging enough to where you're going to want a tank and a healer and learn how the fight works, but not such push overs either like most of the base dungeons where you can just bulldoze them with lots of damage.
It's been awhile since I did Icereach, so I don't remember it too well. But I do remember that last boss being a ____ and requiring some well-timed burst damage to defeat.10 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cradle of Shadow is an old dlc dungeons. Its so easy because of the power creep. About the rest its to make them easier for "weaker" players. Instead they made HMs harder. Well its at least what im thinking. Of course for good players most of them will be just easy if compared to harder ones.
They also added additional rewards for HMs (double drops in Black Drake Villa, chance for double motif in Cauldron).
About the nerfs... they just overnerfed stuff like always. But what can we do...
Moongrave Fane, Lair of Marselook, Dread Cellar, Stone Garden are hard because u "need" a good healer for them. U know, all those health scaled dots and healing debuffs...
I dont think they will buff old dungeons. When ppl wanted to rework Dragonstar Arena (cut the dialogs time) they said its not worth the time. So yeah...2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cradle of Shadow is an old dlc dungeons. Its so easy because of the power creep. About the rest its to make them easier for "weaker" players. Instead they made HMs harder. Well its at least what im thinking. Of course for good players most of them will be just easy if compared to harder ones.
They also added additional rewards for HMs (double drops in Black Drake Villa, chance for double motif in Cauldron).
About the nerfs... they just overnerfed stuff like always. But what can we do...
Moongrave Fane, Lair of Marselook, Dread Cellar, Stone Garden are hard because u "need" a good healer for them. U know, all those health scaled dots and healing debuffs...
I dont think they will buff old dungeons. When ppl wanted to rework Dragonstar Arena (cut the dialogs time) they said its not worth the time. So yeah...
If they added arenas to the activity finder more people would do them.
I don't know why they don't do that.Edited by Jeremy on December 23, 2021 11:48PM2 -
hafgood✭✭✭✭✭
✭The reason they nerf stuff over time is to make it more accessible. They want players playing the content and know once the initial rush of the DLC is done many players will never return.
So no nerfing it the next level down of players can complete and so on.
It's that simple, they are not.going to buff dungeons because that reduces the player base of them again and that's not what they want.1 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The reason they nerf stuff over time is to make it more accessible. They want players playing the content and know once the initial rush of the DLC is done many players will never return.
So no nerfing it the next level down of players can complete and so on.
It's that simple, they are not.going to buff dungeons because that reduces the player base of them again and that's not what they want.
But veteran content is part of the endgame experience. If they keep nerfing it over time they're limiting the reasons for endgame players to stay around.
I'm not asking for normal to be touched... Just the easiest veteran content to be on par with the rest... Doesn't seem unreasonable..0 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The reason they nerf stuff over time is to make it more accessible. They want players playing the content and know once the initial rush of the DLC is done many players will never return.
So no nerfing it the next level down of players can complete and so on.
It's that simple, they are not.going to buff dungeons because that reduces the player base of them again and that's not what they want.
But veteran content is part of the endgame experience. If they keep nerfing it over time they're limiting the reasons for endgame players to stay around.
I'm not asking for normal to be touched... Just the easiest veteran content to be on par with the rest... Doesn't seem unreasonable..
So for players who find normal dungeons too easy and are ready to move into Veteran, and those who are ready to move from Vet base to Vet DLC, they should have no transitionary content available?
Edited by Darrett on December 24, 2021 12:56AM1 -
UntilValhalla13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They check their magic spreadsheets and that tells them which dungeons probably have the lowest complete rates or are struggle buses for randos, and nerf things accordingly. Most endgame players have already left. There's not many of us left1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
There is nothing in any of these dungeons that compare to the damage output in those DLC you listed. Except for maybe the first boss in Fungal 2 that can instantly kill you unless you kill an add, or possibly those shadow pools on the ground the last boss can put down. That's all I can think of. Otherwise the damage in these dungeons are pretty low, which is why people usually don't even care about having a tank or healer.Edited by Jeremy on December 24, 2021 12:49AM5 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
There is nothing in any of these dungeons that compare to the damage output in those DLC you listed. Except for maybe the first boss in Fungal 2 that can instantly kill you unless you kill an add, or possibly those shadow pools on the ground the last boss can put down. That's all I can think of. Otherwise the damage in these dungeons are pretty low, which is why people usually don't even care about having a tank or healer.
Crypt 2 Mezeluth - if you overlap AOE with the ground or team mate you blow up with your team mate
Fungal 2 first boss - free the team mate or they blow up
Darkshade 2 untauntable boss with fire and poison room
Icereach... eh.. A witch does an occasional heavy attack on the Tank xD
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Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The reason they nerf stuff over time is to make it more accessible. They want players playing the content and know once the initial rush of the DLC is done many players will never return.
So no nerfing it the next level down of players can complete and so on.
It's that simple, they are not.going to buff dungeons because that reduces the player base of them again and that's not what they want.
But veteran content is part of the endgame experience. If they keep nerfing it over time they're limiting the reasons for endgame players to stay around.
I'm not asking for normal to be touched... Just the easiest veteran content to be on par with the rest... Doesn't seem unreasonable..
So for players who find normal dungeons too easy and are ready to move into Veteran, and those who are ready to move from Vet base to Vet DLC, they should have no transitionary content available?
There already is:
Normal -> Base Vet -> Baset vet HM -> DLC vet -> DLC vet HM
There's no reason for the DLC vet versions to be vastly different difficulty wise, as it's impossible for new players to learn whether or not White Gold Tower is easier than Stone Garden except through trial and error anyway. And they're all advertisied as 300cp dungeons anyway.0 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The reason they nerf stuff over time is to make it more accessible. They want players playing the content and know once the initial rush of the DLC is done many players will never return.
So no nerfing it the next level down of players can complete and so on.
It's that simple, they are not.going to buff dungeons because that reduces the player base of them again and that's not what they want.
But veteran content is part of the endgame experience. If they keep nerfing it over time they're limiting the reasons for endgame players to stay around.
I'm not asking for normal to be touched... Just the easiest veteran content to be on par with the rest... Doesn't seem unreasonable..
So for players who find normal dungeons too easy and are ready to move into Veteran, and those who are ready to move from Vet base to Vet DLC, they should have no transitionary content available?
There already is:
Normal -> Base Vet -> Baset vet HM -> DLC vet -> DLC vet HM
There's no reason for the DLC vet versions to be vastly different difficulty wise, as it's impossible for new players to learn whether or not White Gold Tower is easier than Stone Garden except through trial and error anyway. And they're all advertisied as 300cp dungeons anyway.
You’re right, there is, though it’s probably still overtuned in the mid range.
Your suggestion is to yank the transitionary content and increase the difficulty to match the top end, so there is no progression path.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
There is nothing in any of these dungeons that compare to the damage output in those DLC you listed. Except for maybe the first boss in Fungal 2 that can instantly kill you unless you kill an add, or possibly those shadow pools on the ground the last boss can put down. That's all I can think of. Otherwise the damage in these dungeons are pretty low, which is why people usually don't even care about having a tank or healer.
Crypt 2 Mezeluth - if you overlap AOE with the ground or team mate you blow up with your team mate
Fungal 2 first boss - free the team mate or they blow up
Darkshade 2 untauntable boss with fire and poison room
Icereach... eh.. A witch does an occasional heavy attack on the Tank xD
I mentioned the Fungal 2 boss, but you're right, Mezeluth does have a one shot mechanic also so I should have mentioned him. Though he goes down incredibly fast with high end dps.
The end boss on Darkshade 2 I'll have to disagree with though, because its damage is pretty weak.Edited by Jeremy on December 24, 2021 4:48AM0 -
mickeyx✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Comparatively some DLC dungeons are just MUCH easier than others in terms of difficulty.
This is not a discussion on player dmg but instead a discussion on how some dungeons are just objectively MUCH easier than others.
Personly I wasn't a huge fan when Zos nerfed Moonhunter Keep and Frostvault a few patches ago, I thought they were fine and think they're maybe too easy now.
But even with the massive nerfs those dungeons took on Vet, they're still far harder than certain others.
Usually for difficulty people tend to point for White Gold Tower as the easiest vet dungeon.
But even though it is some of the oldest DLC content in the game, the moving lightning still regularly kill people in PUGs.
I would argue there's content far easier.
Icereach
If you don't take HM on the final boss there's literally no challenge in this entire dungeon, I would argue even version 2 of basegame vets are often more deadly.
-Don't stand in front of the giant when he's red
-Burn the Hagraven or unfreeze the stranglers if dmg/healing is low
-Burn the flesh atro or kill the ghosts if dmg is low
-Burn the revenant, kill atros
-Final boss burn witches....
The entire dungeon is a stack n' smack, there's no real mechs to worry about, no one-shots, nothing forcing you away from parsing the bosses. I would argue this is currently the easiest DLC dungeon in the game and would rate Crypt 2, Fungal 2 and Darkshades 2 above it in terms of difficulty for standard vet.
Black Drake Villa
Literally the only challenge in this entire dungeon is 1 add - the Salemanders. Avoid enraging Salemanders and you clear even the hardmode so easy.
Probably the easiest final boss hardmode fight in the game (unless you go for the final secret boss).
Cauldron
The only somewhat challenging fight is the Taskmaster, which can be completely nullified if someone got a ranged interrupt.
Pretty much everyone I knew got the hardmode done first day and often first try...
Cradle of Shadows
Aside from having to navigate the dark labyrinth there's very little challenge. Stand in the light, burn things...
If we compare these to their sibling dungeons like Moonhunter (even the nerfed version) or Stone Garden, Dread Cellar, Lair of Maarselok and Moongrave Fane there just seems to be objectively more reason a group would wipe on those than the above mentioned.
While I know we're in a phase of nerfed vet content, I would very much like for the above mentioned dungeons to be buffed to be on par with their siblings in therms of difficulty.
Her we go again 1K / 2K+ cp vets in gold armor with their 'buff this and buff that' thread again. of course at your level it wont be challenging but new comers who just started doing these entry-level vert dungeons find good challenge in there.4 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm a bit torn.
As someone who can do DLC dungeons fairly easily at launch (doing HM and no death/speed run within days too), I personally feel like there isn't that much challenge in newer dungeons.
But, I know the vast majority of people still struggle on them. So making the vet version harder will make them out of reach for a lot of people.
I think what they should do is hardmode for EVERY boss. So there's then an option. Maybe make it so they drop weapons and jewellery on HM versions, so there's a but of a reward as well.
I feel like that would be somewhat of a comprise, and almost make it like there's 3 difficulties, without actually adding one.
I doubt they'd revisit old dungeons, but would be good for new ones.
As for some older ones being easier, I think it's ok honestly. It gives people something to work towards, and gradually go through dungeons to improve build and skills.0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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100% agree you, and with this point in particular. Considering how buggy these lasers can be, especially on the centurion boss when the lasers go right through the "dome" and wipe the group, this is something that should have been implemented from the beginning. If you're going to make buggy mechanics, then you either need to fix them so they don't bug out or you need ways for players to work around them.I'm going to have to disagree. I think those dungeons are fine the way they are. And letting you roll through those stupid lasers in Frostvault was probably the best change ever.@Troodon80 PC | EU
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Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics1 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭These dungeons are not objectively easier, they are subjectively easier. People really need to remember that what's easy to them is likely not easy to a large number of people, and stop asking for content to be made harder. ZOS nerfs these dungeons for a reason. And not every single dungeon in th game needs to be the same difficulty anyway; what's wrong with having easier vDLC dungeons?PC-NA | Been around since closed beta
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
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Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time5 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭No, not really.
Sure, BDV got quite good in pug, but only because people grinding Kinras, so pugs on average going quite smooth (although sometime they get stuck on one of 3 bosses).
Pugs in Icereach in many cases are getting down on the Ice Giant - the perfect test machine on fake tanks.
Lair of Marsy - the same thing with Selene Spider. And The Blue Tree - so many ppl do not know how it works ^^
Cauldron - Taskmaster with inexperienced tank is the worse - not mentioning final boss.
Cradle of Shadows - probably the worse dung in the whole DLC collection - one unexperienced player and you are... down.
Sure, new DLC dungs could be more diverse, with alternative routes for stealth or more modular construction instead of this boring progressive path (Vateshran is perfect example how ZOS could do it), but in general, secret bosses, hardmodes for minibosses and funny achievements are fine for me - no need for nerf/ buff.Edited by Ippokrates on December 24, 2021 10:05PM2 -
Coatmagic✭✭✭✭✭
✭The longer people are in the game the more they do the same content over and over for all the achievs the easier it becomes... maybe it is time for a 'hell' level for the group dungeons...?0
