Battlegrounds Random Queue still (almost) Deathmatch Only

mandricus · December 2021

Almost a month and a half has passed since the release of Deadlands patch with the new BG queue system.

As pointed out by many players in many different threads in the Battleground section ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/dueling ), the current system is heavily biased towards deathmatch, with a probability of 93% to 99% (based on various observation and calculations made by players observing how the current system works) of getting a deathmatch when queueing for a Random Battleground.

This makes almost impossible to get any other match type (Chaos Ball, Capture The Relic, Crazy King or Domination) than Deathmatch.

As a consequence, this makes:

- almost impossible to get the achievements tied to any other non-DM modes.
- almost impossible to get the motifs tied to any other non-DM modes
- almost impossible for anyone wanting any other BG mode to get it.

We all are stuck in an endless DM queue, regardless if you pick the DM queue or the Random queue (you are going to end in a Deatchmatch 99% of the times anyway).

As most players highlighted, we do not ask for people stopping playing deathmatch, or to force people that wants to play deathmatch into any other mode. There is a dedicated DM queue and it's perfectly fine. People that like DM will keep queueing for DM and will keep getting DM only.

We just would like to have the option to opt-out from the DM mode, or to have a fair (and equal) chance of having any other mode, even if this means that we will have to queue for longer times.

At the moment, anyone queueing for a Random Battleground is forced to queue into DM too, and getting 99% of the times a DM anyway, despite queueing for a random match mode.

Most importantly, as far as I know, not any single comment so far has been released on this topic by any ZOS representative. We still don't know:

- If the current system is working as intended
- If they are evaluating some changes to the system in the future
- If there is no plan to change anything and the system will keep working as it is forever

Is it too much to ask for an official comment (any comment) giving us a clue about what we should expect in the future regarding the Random Battlegrounds queue?

Thank you for your attention.

Seminolegirl1992 · December 2021

Oh my gods this. 100%. Have not gotten anything other than DM, and I want objectives.

PeacefulAnarchy · December 2021

mandricus wrote: »

We still don't know:

- If the current system is working as intended
- If they are evaluating some changes to the system in the future
- If there is no plan to change anything and the system will keep working as it is forever

Rich has said it is working as expected. I understood him to imply they might consider tweaks in the future, but that it isn't going to happen super soon. Whether this is because they are happy with things, because they want to see what happens, because there is internal disagreement on how to proceed, or because they don't know how to fix it without pissing off a different section of the userbase is unclear.

I would guess that nothing will change until the next big patch (in February?). I personally hope something will change then but I have no idea if it will.

OBJnoob · December 2021

Honestly I’m not someone who is super upset either way about this particular topic. But 11 people who possibly want an objective mode having to play a death match because 1 person from the death match queue was needed to fill the game or… whatever exactly the case is, the queues not truly being separate…

No doubt it IS acting as expected. Which is to say very poorly.

I’ve been queuing for solo random obj and getting deathmatches let’s say 9 out of 10 times. And honestly I’ve been having fun. Deathmatch is a fine mode. But that one came of capture the relic I had…. Like I was so excited the moment I loaded in and saw what it was. And it didn’t disappoint. Had a closely contested match with all 3 teams occasionally holding each others relic or being sneaky and grabbing one while the other two teams fought each other. I played offense a bit… stayed on defense a bit… got upset that my teammates weren’t helping… got upset that one team seemed to be focusing us while the other team was pulling ahead… had the full gambit of emotions, some good and some bad.

It was so fun. I really missed it.

If there’s only 1 obj wanter for every 10 or 15 dm wanters then just eliminate the obj mode. Several of us will be mad sure but at least the issue will be settled. It’d be better than queuing for one thing but getting the other the MAJORITY of the time.

Working as expected is only an important detail if something is actually working. If THIS is working as “intended” then I am truly annoyed. As far as expectations go… [snip] we also have low expectations.

[edited for bashing]

Seminolegirl1992 · December 2021

OBJnoob wrote: »

Honestly I’m not someone who is super upset either way about this particular topic. But 11 people who possibly want an objective mode having to play a death match because 1 person from the death match queue was needed to fill the game or… whatever exactly the case is, the queues not truly being separate…

No doubt it IS acting as expected. Which is to say very poorly.

I’ve been queuing for solo random obj and getting deathmatches let’s say 9 out of 10 times. And honestly I’ve been having fun. Deathmatch is a fine mode. But that one came of capture the relic I had…. Like I was so excited the moment I loaded in and saw what it was. And it didn’t disappoint. Had a closely contested match with all 3 teams occasionally holding each others relic or being sneaky and grabbing one while the other two teams fought each other. I played offense a bit… stayed on defense a bit… got upset that my teammates weren’t helping… got upset that one team seemed to be focusing us while the other team was pulling ahead… had the full gambit of emotions, some good and some bad.

It was so fun. I really missed it.

If there’s only 1 obj wanter for every 10 or 15 dm wanters then just eliminate the obj mode. Several of us will be mad sure but at least the issue will be settled. It’d be better than queuing for one thing but getting the other the MAJORITY of the time.

Working as expected is only an important detail if something is actually working. If THIS is working as “intended” then I am truly annoyed. As far as expectations go… [snip] we also have low expectations.

I miss objectives ;( Plus there's achievements and style pages you can get from objective modes...

[edited to remove quote]

Sarannah · December 2021

With how ZOS choose to set up the current BG queue's, they are basically tricking players into deathmatch only. The only question is, how long will this last until BG players get fed up and the queue's drop to unhealthy deathmatch-only levels again? ... Like what happened during the test.

ZOS can't possibly expect to fool enough players for a long enough time for these changes to become permanent. And the way it is set up right now, really hurts the integrity of the game as a whole. As it seems ZOS can't fix such an important feature of the game.

Even as a non-PvPer I am closely watching how ZOS deals with this situation, as how they deal with this situation will show how they might deal with any future major issues.

Taggund · December 2021

A response other than what people report as something Rich has said on his stream would be nice. I did not mind deathmatch when it was part of the rotation of objective games, but I am not interested in what is basically deathmatch only. I'm one of the random queue people that are no longer queuing so making it even more deathmatch oriented for those that remain. Since it has been a long time with zero response, and now my expectation is that will not change, I'm now playing other MMOs.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · December 2021

They should just remove the deathmatches from the random battleground queue because it has its own. I'm tired of getting deathmatches when I want something else and it has stopped me from doing BGs.

Elvenheart · December 2021

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

They should just remove the deathmatches from the random battleground queue because it has its own. I'm tired of getting deathmatches when I want something else and it has stopped me from doing BGs.

Totally, completely, unequivocally agreed.

mandricus · December 2021

Well, at least looks like almost everyone agree that the current implementation is flawed in its design, so I'm not alone. Personally i gave up too on queuing. Almost two months of non-stop Deathmatch, too bored, not interested in playing anymore until they fix this nonsense.

Lady_Galadhiel · December 2021

I used to play some Battleground here and there but now not anymore.I even avoid it if possible for weekly or daily endeaovers.
One of my characters still needs to get the relic runner achievement but with how bgs work now,I wonder if I will be able to complete it ever.

IronWooshu · December 2021

I don't understand why there isn't a solo objective game que that is everything but deathmatch while stilling having a solo deathmatch que thats just deathmatch.

New players coming to the game, get so much deathmatch that when they get an objective game they have absolutely no experience with it and never get enough time to get experience with it because it pops maybe 1 time out of 12.

Facefister · December 2021

Maybe the overwhelming majority wants to play DM?

mandricus · December 2021

Facefister wrote: »

Maybe the overwhelming majority wants to play DM?

Nope. It has been proven, observing queue data, that even if one single player out of 12 queue for Deathmatch, it drags every other player queued for a random BG into a Deathmatch. So it just takes 1 out of 12 at any given moment queuing for Deathmatch to drag everyone else into a Deathmatch. This makes almost impossible for anyone to get anything but Deathmatch, and it makes almost no sense, considering that Deathmatch already has it's own separate queue.

Vevvev · December 2021

I think they should change the drop down menu to a radio button thing instead. Display all options at once instead of the drop down menu to show players there are different choices than just Deathmatch. Imagine the amount of people queuing Deathmatch would shift as a result.

Nogawd · December 2021

I gave up on bg' when they did their "test".

It's been nothing but a little bone to throw to the "diehard" pvp community as the traffic has been dying in Cyro and still dead in IC.

They can spew any comment they want, but that is what I think it is.

It's been trash for 2 patches.

Arunei · December 2021

Iirc Rich had claimed they didn't want to do separate queues for Objective BGs because they didn't want to split up the playerbase. But what baffles me is they admitted during testing that people playing BGs when it was as DM-only dropped to unhealthily low numbers. I think that right there should be proof that it's NOT a majority of players that want DM; if that was the case, wouldn't only a smaller number of people stopped playing during the test?

And now they basically have the same thing that the test was, where it's almost always DM, because as was mentioned if even ONE person who queued for DM is stuck with the people doing a Random queue, it'll be a DM game. If they say during the test that DM-only made the population unhealthy, isn't the way it is now going to eventually end up the same?

Also, a single person who chose DM getting put with 11 people who chose Random shouldn't make the whole game DM. How is that even fair? How does that let ZOS get accurate information on how people are actually queueing?

Macwynne67 · December 2021

mandricus wrote: »

Almost a month and a half has passed since the release of Deadlands patch with the new BG queue system.

As pointed out by many players in many different threads in the Battleground section ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/dueling ), the current system is heavily biased towards deathmatch, with a probability of 93% to 99% (based on various observation and calculations made by players observing how the current system works) of getting a deathmatch when queueing for a Random Battleground.

This makes almost impossible to get any other match type (Chaos Ball, Capture The Relic, Crazy King or Domination) than Deathmatch.

As a consequence, this makes:

- almost impossible to get the achievements tied to any other non-DM modes.
- almost impossible to get the motifs tied to any other non-DM modes
- almost impossible for anyone wanting any other BG mode to get it.

We all are stuck in an endless DM queue, regardless if you pick the DM queue or the Random queue (you are going to end in a Deatchmatch 99% of the times anyway).

As most players highlighted, we do not ask for people stopping playing deathmatch, or to force people that wants to play deathmatch into any other mode. There is a dedicated DM queue and it's perfectly fine. People that like DM will keep queueing for DM and will keep getting DM only.

We just would like to have the option to opt-out from the DM mode, or to have a fair (and equal) chance of having any other mode, even if this means that we will have to queue for longer times.

At the moment, anyone queueing for a Random Battleground is forced to queue into DM too, and getting 99% of the times a DM anyway, despite queueing for a random match mode.

Most importantly, as far as I know, not any single comment so far has been released on this topic by any ZOS representative. We still don't know:

- If the current system is working as intended
- If they are evaluating some changes to the system in the future
- If there is no plan to change anything and the system will keep working as it is forever

Is it too much to ask for an official comment (any comment) giving us a clue about what we should expect in the future regarding the Random Battlegrounds queue?

Thank you for your attention.

I would say you have a lot of hidden support for this I have friends that do not go to the forum so you won't see them complaining about the lack of objective battlegrounds but it does need to change probably sooner than later

nightstrike · December 2021

I found more than a few people in zone that thought that non DM modes were permanently removed, so the messaging on this could use some work.

Taggund · December 2021

I became bored with PVE, and playing BGs were keeping me interested in the game. I cancelled my ESO+ sub this week, and I'd normally buy crowns during the sale, but did not this time. I'm not sure if DM only kept/brought back more paying players than they may lose (if there are others like me that find this an opportunity to play other MMOs).

The ZOS silence on this is part of the frustration. If we heard something from ZOS that would indicate they are looking at the issue and ways that objective BGs would be back I could see staying around, but I'm not really expecting it at this point.

BalticBlues · December 2021

Sometimes I think:
"If ZOS finds another way to ruin PvP, they will do it."

I once LOVED PvP in ESO. Then...

Light Armor was killed for every class except Sorcs by nerfing Mag shields by 50%, so in Light Armor each siege weapon kills you at once.
Mag pets were nerfed to the point that pet damage today is useless in PvP.
Mag proc sets were nerfed to scale with insane Spell/Weapon damage - so only Stam can use them.
New Proc sets were introduced killing all skill in the game (Dark Convergence, Hrothgar..)
Smart BG objectives which were fun were replaced by DUMB Death Match only mode.

Finally, I do not play PvP anymore at all. I could even live with the insane lag or having to travel by foot for miles in Cyro because of the "stuck in combat" bugs FOR YEARS. But I cannot live anymore with DESIGN DECISIONS forcing STAM GAMEPLAY and DEATH MATCH ONLY MODE into your throat.

IMHO, ZOS has killed PvP for the broad audience by pleasing a handful of streamers.

mandricus · December 2021

Arunei wrote: »

Also, a single person who chose DM getting put with 11 people who chose Random shouldn't make the whole game DM. How is that even fair? How does that let ZOS get accurate information on how people are actually queueing?

I do sincerely hope that they have a backend system where they can track how many players queued for Deathmatch and how many players queued for random. Anyway, even checking this data could lead to wrong assumptions.
My guess is that at the beginning of the current patch the BG population was split in half more or less: half of the players queueing for Deathmatch, half of the players queueing for Random Battlegrounds.
The problem is, due to the current situation, I guess most of the people interested into random battlegrounds are not queueing anymore, because they realized it's impossible to have anything but Deathmatch. So, the data may suggest today that there has been a shift toward Deathmatch, and that today may be 90% of players are queueing for Deathmatch, and that Deathmatch is by far the most popular choice. But this would not take into account obviously that all the people not interested in playing Deathmatch endlessly are not queuing anymore, and they do not show in the data.
IMHO the only way to know for sure how the BG population is split on the Deathmatch / Objective preferences would be to remove Deathmatch from random queue and let the queue runs for at least a month, and check what happens in BG population / queues.

joseayalac · December 2021

I haven't got a single non DM match since the patch dropped.

Melivar · December 2021

Haven't que'd since they started the test other than the 1st week of the patch (4 death matches in a row), now I won't que until I can reasonably expect a no DM game mode which is not the case based on discussions with guild mates.

The little bit of XP just isn't worth the sweatiness you have to endure in DM game.

luen79rwb17_ESO · December 2021

They will probably adress this next patch, if at all. So we're stuck with these flawed system design for months to come.

As many players have posted before, I made my choice weeks ago and decided to invest my time in what I like, which is not in this mode.

drsalvation · December 2021

It's because PvP'ers think that "PvP" means specifically killing other players, and not the competitive mode in general (They probably don't like chess, basketball or soccer because players are playing objectives and not bashing each other to death... but to be fair, I'd probably watch those sports if that's what they actually did lol). I mean, even players like Nefas and RealGodzilla get annoyed because they can't seem to kill players that want to do objectives.

And It sucks that we do get Deathmatch 99% of the times.
I have a cool tank build that would help with chaos ball... if I ever queued into it! Instead, I risk going in as a tank in deathmatch and not do anything because of how polarizing the numbers in different builds are... or get that lucky moment that I actually queue to an objective-based battleground only to still be in a dps build.

Not only that, most of the times, people still play objective modes as if they were deathmatch with extra steps. They'll just go find people to kill. I got downed by some random player when near my relic, and the dude didn't even bother with taking our relic which was just there for the taking. The dude just went off to kill other players (And I partially understand it if he's just like me, trying to get the red dye from killing 1k players).

I personally think there aren't many competitive, objective-based PvP modes. Cyrodiil is nice, but you can't do much without a zerg. IC is just deathmatch with extra steps. Objective based battlegrounds are just deathmatch with unlimited kills.

The problem is that we don't know what we're getting into if we queue into battlegrounds with a certain build. The only certain build is to go in with intention of doing deathmatches, and then just kill your way through in whatever mode you get, and this forces only one type of play style.
I just don't fully understand how queue works in this game and why can't we have individual queues for each type of game mode, the way we have dungeon finder queues, where you can select multiple dungeons and then join the first matching one.

gariondavey · December 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

It's because PvP'ers think that "PvP" means specifically killing other players, and not the competitive mode in general (They probably don't like chess, basketball or soccer because players are playing objectives and not bashing each other to death... but to be fair, I'd probably watch those sports if that's what they actually did lol). I mean, even players like Nefas and RealGodzilla get annoyed because they can't seem to kill players that want to do objectives.

And It sucks that we do get Deathmatch 99% of the times.
I have a cool tank build that would help with chaos ball... if I ever queued into it! Instead, I risk going in as a tank in deathmatch and not do anything because of how polarizing the numbers in different builds are... or get that lucky moment that I actually queue to an objective-based battleground only to still be in a dps build.

Not only that, most of the times, people still play objective modes as if they were deathmatch with extra steps. They'll just go find people to kill. I got downed by some random player when near my relic, and the dude didn't even bother with taking our relic which was just there for the taking. The dude just went off to kill other players (And I partially understand it if he's just like me, trying to get the red dye from killing 1k players).

I personally think there aren't many competitive, objective-based PvP modes. Cyrodiil is nice, but you can't do much without a zerg. IC is just deathmatch with extra steps. Objective based battlegrounds are just deathmatch with unlimited kills.

The problem is that we don't know what we're getting into if we queue into battlegrounds with a certain build. The only certain build is to go in with intention of doing deathmatches, and then just kill your way through in whatever mode you get, and this forces only one type of play style.
I just don't fully understand how queue works in this game and why can't we have individual queues for each type of game mode, the way we have dungeon finder queues, where you can select multiple dungeons and then join the first matching one.

I don't know how many times this conversation has to be had...
ESO objective bgs have THREE teams. How many teams/competitors are there in basketball, soccer, chess, etc.? TWO.
Objective modes with 2 teams would be like other games (counterstrike, etc.) and would be actually enjoyable to people in the DM crowd.
What we in the DM crowd do not like is playing in games where player vs player combat is discouraged, where people just run to where the other 2 teams are not. It is absolutely stupid.

You say you don't want to queue as a tank into DM. Having a tanky player on your team can be the difference in winning in DM. One of my characters is a nord stam dk with master 2h, daedric trickery, bloodspawn, and 7th legion (backbar). My ult gen is insane. I can go into 1h+s ult almost permanently. So in DM I run into an enemy team, pop my ult, draw all their fire, debuff with noxious and carve, slow them with cinderstorm, and reflect all their projectiles. They focus me while I tank all their damage, and my team wipes them all. If my team is bad and doesn't follow up on this type of strategy, I will type to them explaining what I'm doing, and normally things get turned around at that point. You could do the same thing with one of your tank builds.

mandricus · December 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

The problem is that we don't know what we're getting into if we queue into battlegrounds with a certain build.

You opened a Pandora's box here. One of the issues with the current situation is that you don't have to think too much about your build: you just need a build that is effective on a deathmatch. That's it. On the other hands, with the so called "objective bg", when the random queue was truly random, you had a wide range of possible builds. You could build supertanky, hoping for a Chaosball or a Domination match, where you don't need to kill your opponents but just to be able to stand in one point and eat the incoming damage, or you could build super-sneaky and super-mobile to be deadly effective in capture the relic or crazy king matches, where usually a highly mobile glasscannon build paid off, because of your superior mobility and your ability to move quickly and to smart positioning yourself on the battlefield. I liked those kind of builds, and I still have a magblade that was highly specialized for capture the relic matches, which is collecting dust at the moment: I never used it since the new patch hit live (it is pretty much useless at the moment).

Sadly all of this has gone away, because there is no sense anymore going into a battleground with such builds knowing that 99% of the times you will end in a deathmatch where those builds are almost useless.

So not only the current queue is killing the fun for all the people that do not enjoy DM all the time, but is also killing one of the core feature of this game, which is the ability to build your character in hundreds of very different ways, and to be deadly effective even with an "off meta" build, specializing in some particular areas needed for the various game modes.

Anyhow, we are beating a dead horse. Given the situation, i think at this point that we will not have any official comment ever from ZOS on this topic, so the only thing we can do is wait, hoping that someday the situation will change.

nightstrike · December 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

What we in the DM crowd do not like is playing in games where player vs player combat is discouraged, where people just run to where the other 2 teams are not. It is absolutely stupid.

There are more ways to compete than just with direct combat.

caindele · December 2021

I think the issue could be lessened by making the default for the dropdown Random BG rather than Random DM. I would wager that most people don't even look and realize the default is DM. It wouldn't hurt to try this change.