When will Purchasable Crown Crates be Removed from the Game?

GEN_ZOOL · December 2021

So, this is only Applying to Crown Crates Obtained from a Purchase.

The Crown Crate (by Law) is recognised as a 'Random Drop Loot Box' and thus the Sale of these is Prohibited/Restricted in some Countries (my own Included).

So, why can I still walk into the game and buy a Crown Crate?
The Transaction is recognised as an Illegal Purchase (as it was Illegally Sold - Shouldn't have been available).
Just like buying a Lottery Ticket while under 18 (Retailer is held to Account and can be fined).
I know some Companies are slow on the Uptake, but they should no longer show in the Store.
Electronic Arts has had to remove all Loot Boxes from their Storefront for this Country, so time for Zenimax/Bethesda to catch up please.

In some Countries, the 'Random Drop Loot Box' is a 'Restricted' Item, and thus has to follow a set of Rules.
In the case of Elder Scrolls Online, the Attempt of using 'Seals of Endeavour' is that attempt of living inside the rules.
Breach (in my Country): Time Limited Items
To explain why this is a Breach:
> Items cost a lot more than what can actually be acquired within the LoA (Lifetime of Availability) of the Product
> The fact that a Limitation applies to the Item encourages Gambling, and thus promotes the Problem
Action that can be taken in this Case:
> The Company can be fined up to a specific percentage of Income, or a set Value (whichever is higher)

So, when will we see an Update?
P.S.- Crown Crates Obtained from an Event/Mission as a Reward for doing something, those are fine.

Anyone wondering why I posted this here, it's because I was told to put Feedback and Questions into the Forum, as Support didn't have a Response to this matter.

Amottica · December 2021

Seals of Endeavors comes from a MS policy which is probably a means to hold off regulations in areas that have not regulated such crates. It is why these were added after MS finalized the purchase of ESO. This was discussed in some threads earlier this year. I do not know the real reason for MS starting this policy but just providing a reasonable guess.

As for when they will be removed from the game? When enough jurisdictions make them outright illegal and it seems we are not at that threshold. Again, a guess we are not there yet merely because these crates are still being sold.

Also, when the day comes that games do have to get rid of such crates we may get something much worse. The revenue will be replaced somehow and some operations will close down because they no longer receive enough revenue. This is essentially an economic law for businesses. I expect ESO will survive as it seems very successful but we will pay via another means.

If you think Zenimax is operating illegally in your jurisdiction then reporting them would be an appropriate and just action. Those in authority will determine if Zenimax is operating outside of the law. I would suggest anyone who thinks so take this route.

GEN_ZOOL · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Seals of Endeavors comes from a MS policy which is probably a means to hold off regulations in areas that have not regulated such crates. It is why these were added after MS finalized the purchase of ESO. This was discussed in some threads earlier this year. I do not know the real reason for MS starting this policy but just providing a reasonable guess.

As for when they will be removed from the game? When enough jurisdictions make them outright illegal and it seems we are not at that threshold. Again, a guess we are not there yet merely because these crates are still being sold.

Also, when the day comes that games do have to get rid of such crates we may get something much worse. The revenue will be replaced somehow and some operations will close down because they no longer receive enough revenue. This is essentially an economic law for businesses. I expect ESO will survive as it seems very successful but we will pay via another means.

If you think Zenimax is operating illegally in your jurisdiction then reporting them would be an appropriate and just action. Those in authority will determine if Zenimax is operating outside of the law. I would suggest anyone who thinks so take this route.

On the note of Reporting it, I did.
Response: "Thank you for notifying us of this, we will notify the Company of the problem. Unfortunately, this process can be expected to take some time, we hope you understand."
I'm paraphrasing, as their response was a lot longer, but that sums it up.
Working out who's actually responsible for this error isn't so straight forward.

Amottica · December 2021

GEN_ZOOL wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Seals of Endeavors comes from a MS policy which is probably a means to hold off regulations in areas that have not regulated such crates. It is why these were added after MS finalized the purchase of ESO. This was discussed in some threads earlier this year. I do not know the real reason for MS starting this policy but just providing a reasonable guess.

As for when they will be removed from the game? When enough jurisdictions make them outright illegal and it seems we are not at that threshold. Again, a guess we are not there yet merely because these crates are still being sold.

Also, when the day comes that games do have to get rid of such crates we may get something much worse. The revenue will be replaced somehow and some operations will close down because they no longer receive enough revenue. This is essentially an economic law for businesses. I expect ESO will survive as it seems very successful but we will pay via another means.

If you think Zenimax is operating illegally in your jurisdiction then reporting them would be an appropriate and just action. Those in authority will determine if Zenimax is operating outside of the law. I would suggest anyone who thinks so take this route.

On the note of Reporting it, I did.
Response: "Thank you for notifying us of this, we will notify the Company of the problem. Unfortunately, this process can be expected to take some time, we hope you understand."
I'm paraphrasing, as their response was a lot longer, but that sums it up.
Working out who's actually responsible for this error isn't so straight forward.

Great. If Zenimax is out of compliance then the regulators will take the appropriate action.

Elsonso · December 2021

What country are you in?

Amottica · December 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

What country are you in?

@Elsonso

I would expect Belgium or the Netherlands. However, when looking at EA, which is the example EA used, their loot boxes were of a different design as they offered a small chance for an item that would improve the player's performance in-game. That is a very different situation than cosmetics as it becomes more forced since it affects being able to compete in combat vs cosmetics.

In the end, OP reported it, good for them. If the authorities do find Zenimax is in violation of that nation's laws then they will soon not be able to see the crates in the crown store. If it is within the law then things will continue as they are, for now.

Danikat · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

What country are you in?

@Elsonso

I would expect Belgium or the Netherlands. However, when looking at EA, which is the example EA used, their loot boxes were of a different design as they offered a small chance for an item that would improve the player's performance in-game. That is a very different situation than cosmetics as it becomes more forced since it affects being able to compete in combat vs cosmetics.

In the end, OP reported it, good for them. If the authorities do find Zenimax is in violation of that nation's laws then they will soon not be able to see the crates in the crown store. If it is within the law then things will continue as they are, for now.

Distinctions like that can be important for players but usually not for regulators.

For example in the UK anything which can be classified as a lottery is covered by the same regulations, it doesn't matter if the prize is millions of pounds in cash or second hand ornaments. (The taxes paid are of course different, but it's the same law regulating it.) I suspect that's partially because whether an item is wanted or needed or how useful it is will be highly subjective and that makes it hard to give clear legal definitions.

Also I agree that reporting it to the relevant authorities is the best approach to take. If it's a new law ZOS may not be aware yet or might be in the process of making changes (I remember when GDPR came into force and even with 2 years notice companies were scrambling to comply, even ones based in Europe) and if not the regulator will be able to make them comply.

Helldir · December 2021

GEN_ZOOL wrote: »

> Items cost a lot more than what can actually be acquired within the LoA (Lifetime of Availability) of the Product
> The fact that a Limitation applies to the Item encourages Gambling, and thus promotes the Problem.

This is exactly why I absolutely hate the Crown Store the way it is set up. I sometimes fall victim to these crates myself and they often result in buyers remorse. The whole Seals of Endeavour thing... don't get me started. In short... you get so few of them and the prices on some items are absolutely outrageous.

xclassgaming · December 2021

Never.

TelvanniWizard · December 2021

xclassgaming wrote: »

Never.

Sadly, the truth

Stx · December 2021

They will only remove them if they absolutely have to and are forced to. All they care about is money and unfortunately there are enough players who love to throw tons of money at the crates.

bridgetrose · December 2021

Well, they could get rid of the crates and to make up the loss in revenue they could make the game subscription only.

kwinter · December 2021

The is made in USA not sure these other countries can really do anything except make illegal for to sold in that country

francesinhalover · December 2021

What about the players in your country that want them?

Freakin_Hytte · December 2021

francesinhalover wrote: »

What about the players in your country that want them?

Doesn't matter if they want it or not, if it's illegal it's illegal. The same applies to teenagers who want to gamble in my country, it doesn't matter since it's illegal.

Amottica · December 2021

francesinhalover wrote: »

What about the players in your country that want them?

In jurisdictions where crates are illegal, they are not available. It is irrelevant if the player wants them or not, but law.

Brrrofski · December 2021

bridgetrose wrote: »

Well, they could get rid of the crates and to make up the loss in revenue they could make the game subscription only.

Or just sell the actual items on the store.

Even if it's £30 for a skin, or mount.

People would still buy them and at least know how much they'd have to pay to get the item.

I'd ironically end up spending more money (either real cash or through gold, which means someone else is buying). Because right now, I don't touch crates unless there happens to be a new set when my ESO plus crowns come through.

bridgetrose · December 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

bridgetrose wrote: »

Well, they could get rid of the crates and to make up the loss in revenue they could make the game subscription only.

Or just sell the actual items on the store.

Even if it's £30 for a skin, or mount.

People would still buy them and at least know how much they'd have to pay to get the item.

I'd ironically end up spending more money (either real cash or through gold, which means someone else is buying). Because right now, I don't touch crates unless there happens to be a new set when my ESO plus crowns come through.

Actually that's a good idea. I didn't think beyond the boxes going away. I also would probably spend more money if I could pick and choose.

DaSnowFangs · December 2021

Thank you for making this post

I'm all for allowing players to buy cosmetics, especially if it helps fund the game for further development. But allow the players to pay for that thing they want, not rope them into only a small chance of getting it. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Reverb · December 2021

Crates are such a source of revenue for them (and most game studios at this point) that they are more likely to disallow the game from being played in any country that bans them outright. The only way they’re getting removed is if the EU or US bans them, with language so firm that there are no loopholes. That’s unlikely to happen.

Currently leveraged loopholes include crate items being outright purchasable with gems or with endeavor seals.

Danikat · December 2021

I'm curious about what they're going to do when the UK finishes it's review of gambling legislation and updates the law. Its likely that loot boxes won't be made illegal here, but will be classified as gambling and regulated as such, so games selling them will need to comply with similar regulations to online casinos.

Some of that is already covered, for example ESO is rated 18+ and the age rating is legally enforced at the point of sale, but ZOS would also need to register for a gambling licence, pay some extra fees and possibly comply with other regulations like an annual audit of how any gambling systems are run.

It's all things they could do to keep selling crown crates, but I wonder if they will or if they'll decide the loss of revenue isn't worth the extra hassle and just block them.

Elsonso · December 2021

Reverb wrote: »

Crates are such a source of revenue for them (and most game studios at this point) that they are more likely to disallow the game from being played in any country that bans them outright. The only way they’re getting removed is if the EU or US bans them, with language so firm that there are no loopholes. That’s unlikely to happen.

It is unlikely that they will implement a policy to disallow the game from being played in a jurisdiction simply because that jurisdiction does not allow people to buy loot boxes.

If too many jurisdictions ban the loot boxes, and the studio was too dependent on "loot box whale" revenue, it is more likely that development of the game will slow. The studio will focus on keeping the servers running. That will go on as long as they can generate enough revenue to pay for running the servers.

Edit: My personal opinion is that the "housing whale" portion of the game nicely offsets the "loot box whale" revenue, and loot box bans will not impact that. And... of course, I mean no disrespect with the term "whale"... it is just that this is the term used to describe the relatively small number of players that spend a relatively large amount of money on the game.

hafgood · December 2021

They won't disable the game in jurisdictions, they will disable the ability to buy crates. You cannot buy crates in Belgium for instance

Jaimeh · December 2021

Reverb wrote: »

If too many jurisdictions ban the loot boxes, and the studio was too dependent on "loot box whale" revenue, it is more likely that development of the game will slow. The studio will focus on keeping the servers running. That will go on as long as they can generate enough revenue to pay for running the servers.

I don't think they'd bankrupt if they removed crates, and added the collectibles as direct purchases from the store. That was the case pre-crates. Obviously they are keeping the model because it's more profitable for them, but I don't think that the alternative means the game will start stagnating.

Jaimeh · December 2021

Reverb wrote: »

If too many jurisdictions ban the loot boxes, and the studio was too dependent on "loot box whale" revenue, it is more likely that development of the game will slow. The studio will focus on keeping the servers running. That will go on as long as they can generate enough revenue to pay for running the servers.

I don't think they'd bankrupt if they removed crates, and added the collectibles as direct purchases from the store. That was the case pre-crates. Obviously they are keeping the model because it's more profitable for them, but I don't think that the alternative means the game will start stagnating.

Vonkarolinas · December 2021

GEN_ZOOL wrote: »

So, this is only Applying to Crown Crates Obtained from a Purchase.

The Crown Crate (by Law) is recognised as a 'Random Drop Loot Box' and thus the Sale of these is Prohibited/Restricted in some Countries (my own Included).

So, why can I still walk into the game and buy a Crown Crate?
The Transaction is recognised as an Illegal Purchase (as it was Illegally Sold - Shouldn't have been available).
Just like buying a Lottery Ticket while under 18 (Retailer is held to Account and can be fined).
I know some Companies are slow on the Uptake, but they should no longer show in the Store.
Electronic Arts has had to remove all Loot Boxes from their Storefront for this Country, so time for Zenimax/Bethesda to catch up please.

In some Countries, the 'Random Drop Loot Box' is a 'Restricted' Item, and thus has to follow a set of Rules.
In the case of Elder Scrolls Online, the Attempt of using 'Seals of Endeavour' is that attempt of living inside the rules.
Breach (in my Country): Time Limited Items
To explain why this is a Breach:
> Items cost a lot more than what can actually be acquired within the LoA (Lifetime of Availability) of the Product
> The fact that a Limitation applies to the Item encourages Gambling, and thus promotes the Problem
Action that can be taken in this Case:
> The Company can be fined up to a specific percentage of Income, or a set Value (whichever is higher)

So, when will we see an Update?
P.S.- Crown Crates Obtained from an Event/Mission as a Reward for doing something, those are fine.

Anyone wondering why I posted this here, it's because I was told to put Feedback and Questions into the Forum, as Support didn't have a Response to this matter.

My question is why does it bother you so much? If you don't like them, just don't buy them. If it is a question of legality between the company and your country that is between them, why do you feel the need to get involved?

ive_wonder · December 2021

My question is why does it bother you so much? If you don't like them, just don't buy them. If it is a question of legality between the company and your country that is between them, why do you feel the need to get involved?

I for one want to be able to purchase items from crown crates, only the ones i need, and i don't want to overpay for them or get anything i don't want.

Vonkarolinas · December 2021

ive_wonder wrote: »

My question is why does it bother you so much? If you don't like them, just don't buy them. If it is a question of legality between the company and your country that is between them, why do you feel the need to get involved?

I for one want to be able to purchase items from crown crates, only the ones i need, and i don't want to overpay for them or get anything i don't want.

That is a completely different take. I agree, that is a good idea, and is what the endeavor system is supposed to be fore. But the amount of seals required is a bit much.