Is barbed trap a must have? help with build PVE

francesinhalover · December 2021

I never liked the skill... would running tzogvins be a dps loss?...
I was planning on running rele + tzog //stormfist + vma bow for trials but my main focus has always been dungeon dps

and for dungeons i'm not sure

- Tzogv + advancing yokeda + stormfist+ vma bow
- Leviathan + tzog + storm + vma bow
- Hundings + tzog + storm + vma bow
- tzog + Briarheart + stormfist +vma bow
- Twice fanged serpent + Tzog + Stormfist + vma Bow.

class stam sorce. Rotation - Endless + hurri swap Cloak + spam + spam execute + bound for proccing // clanfear double bar // ultis flawless dawnbreaker and Greater storm atro

I don't like kinras... the special effect reminds me of a dragon knight and i'm a sorcerer... but i will think about it and how i could use it.

How bad would it be to not have barbed trap? I would just use 2 skills from the backbar , with magica detonation has a third skill vs groups

colossalvoids · December 2021

Let's just say be sure with all what your group provides be below total 125% (counting 50% you have by default) crit damage as it's a cap currently. If you're lacking some percents it's not a biggie but the higher your damage output the more stuff like that matters. If you're going to use tzog trap is kinda redundant for the buff but the damage is pretty good regardless so make a pick.

ixthUA · December 2021

If you do dungeons, what about tzogvin + kinras + slimecraw? Thats +10% damage done, +5% team damage done (as healer main, hitting DDs with combat prayer is super difficult), +4512 critical chance, +10% critical damage (no need barbed trap), +258 weapon damage, +1487 resist penetration.
Also, does kinras provide minor berserk for the wearer?

Everest_Lionheart · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

If you do dungeons, what about tzogvin + kinras + slimecraw? Thats +10% damage done, +5% team damage done (as healer main, hitting DDs with combat prayer is super difficult), +4512 critical chance, +10% critical damage (no need barbed trap), +258 weapon damage, +1487 resist penetration.
Also, does kinras provide minor berserk for the wearer?

Kinras for boss fights but for most trash packs you will barely get any uptime out of it.

francesinhalover · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

If you do dungeons, what about tzogvin + kinras + slimecraw? Thats +10% damage done, +5% team damage done (as healer main, hitting DDs with combat prayer is super difficult), +4512 critical chance, +10% critical damage (no need barbed trap), +258 weapon damage, +1487 resist penetration.
Also, does kinras provide minor berserk for the wearer?

No, only major.

Ippokrates · December 2021

As Sorc you don't need barbed trap on front bar, cause every class skill you have on bar improve your dmg. So it is enough to get minor force from Psijic on back bar.

Also, you do not have any trial set? It's good to have one, because with minor slayer they are usually more efficient than dungeon sets.

francesinhalover · December 2021

Ippokrates wrote: »

As Sorc you don't need barbed trap on front bar, cause every class skill you have on bar improve your dmg. So it is enough to get minor force from Psijic on back bar.

Also, you do not have any trial set? It's good to have one, because with minor slayer they are usually more efficient than dungeon sets.

I don't really like any trial set tbh.

I have tested and Relequen performs worse than hundings by around 1.5k dps before it reaches max stacks.
My testings were probs bad, but the understanding is easy, Rele 5% dung dmg wont do much.
What other set is there? I don't know any good trial sets.

El_Borracho · December 2021

@francesinhalover As to your original question, yes you should be using Barbed Trap on a stamina build. You can absolutely run Tzvogins instead of Barbed Trap to get Minor Force. Its a great set and you will not be losing DPS by using it, as long as you are replacing it with another useful skill. I don't know what skill you would put on the back bar with a stamsorc, though. Camo Hunter? Another Bow DOT? If you are replacing it with another DOT or AOE, great. But if you're doing it to remove Trap from the rotation, that would be lowering your DPS overall.

Relequen is the best set for stamina. In terms of DPS, everything has to do with boss fights and in boss fights it outperforms almost every other set. It also is one of the few stamina sets that gives you Minor Slayer. Since you don't like Kinras, why not Advancing Yokeda? Works well with Deadly Cloak.

I completely understand your desire to get rid of Barbed Trap. I have the same feeling about Channeled Acceleration on my magicka DDs which is why I ran Medusa (and still do on some). But I'd rather hit Trap every 15 seconds if it means I can get more DPS.

francesinhalover · December 2021

El_Borracho wrote: »

@francesinhalover As to your original question, yes you should be using Barbed Trap on a stamina build. You can absolutely run Tzvogins instead of Barbed Trap to get Minor Force. Its a great set and you will not be losing DPS by using it, as long as you are replacing it with another useful skill. I don't know what skill you would put on the back bar with a stamsorc, though. Camo Hunter? Another Bow DOT? If you are replacing it with another DOT or AOE, great. But if you're doing it to remove Trap from the rotation, that would be lowering your DPS overall.

Relequen is the best set for stamina. In terms of DPS, everything has to do with boss fights and in boss fights it outperforms almost every other set. It also is one of the few stamina sets that gives you Minor Slayer. Since you don't like Kinras, why not Advancing Yokeda? Works well with Deadly Cloak.

I completely understand your desire to get rid of Barbed Trap. I have the same feeling about Channeled Acceleration on my magicka DDs which is why I ran Medusa (and still do on some). But I'd rather hit Trap every 15 seconds if it means I can get more DPS.

"why not Advancing Yokeda? Works well with Deadly Cloak." How so, advancing is hit 10 light attacks to work set, same has relequeen.
If i dodge a boss i lose all my dps.
I do know that rapid strikes can proc 2x advancing yokeda shortning the wait time, no idea about relequeen and rapid.
I heard you, i was going to replace barbed with camo... but if it's a dps loss... i'll try to handle barbed... i'm just not a fan of the duration.

El_Borracho · December 2021

@francesinhalover No, AY requires "When you deal Martial melee damage, your Critical Chance is increased by 241 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 10 times. This effect can occur once every half second." Deadly cloak deals martial melee damage, as does Hurricane, your light attacks, bleed damage (like the kind from Trap), and Bound Armaments. Its very easy to keep stacks up while in combat

I think Camo Hunter is a good call as it should attach to Hurricane and Endless Hail and the Minor Berserk will carry over to your front bar for those 5 seconds. The issue would be can you make up or surpass the damage that Trap would have done over that time. Worth trying out.

As for AY vs. Tzvogins, I prefer AY but I also don't mind Trap. However, I do run Tzvogins on a stamblade werewolf DPS I occasionally play with as it just works better on that build. Nothing is set in stone in this game, especially if you can find a combo and rotation that works better for you

Ippokrates · December 2021

francesinhalover wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

As Sorc you don't need barbed trap on front bar, cause every class skill you have on bar improve your dmg. So it is enough to get minor force from Psijic on back bar.

Also, you do not have any trial set? It's good to have one, because with minor slayer they are usually more efficient than dungeon sets.

I don't really like any trial set tbh.

I have tested and Relequen performs worse than hundings by around 1.5k dps before it reaches max stacks.
My testings were probs bad, but the understanding is easy, Rele 5% dung dmg wont do much.
What other set is there? I don't know any good trial sets.

Sure, Rele require build-up but most of op pve do: Kinras, Tzogvin, Kilt. Do you play on vet? Because on normal surely it can perform worse than set with permanent boost (my favourite Azura do not even trigger because all mobs are dying before reaching 20 stacks ^^), but it really shines at harder difficullty.

I really like trial sets. They helped me to improve performance and even done some Trifecta.

Vicious Ophidian/False God is imho must have for some serious solo gameplay.

SulXan is probably most powerful sets of all, but it will not work for some dungeons or trials.

Bahsei is also nice, but it require far more experience than Rele

Yandir is nice too, and imho better than Siroria, especially when you want to boost your proc dmg sets, like Nerenieth and others.

Infallible Mage is great when you are going for heavy attack build and they can be really powerful this patch, with modified charged trait.

Other sets like Lokkestitz or War Machine are more situational and rather designed to work with dedicated group, so solo or pugs would not work with them, unless you are Necro ^^

Everest_Lionheart · December 2021

Ippokrates wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

As Sorc you don't need barbed trap on front bar, cause every class skill you have on bar improve your dmg. So it is enough to get minor force from Psijic on back bar.

Also, you do not have any trial set? It's good to have one, because with minor slayer they are usually more efficient than dungeon sets.

I don't really like any trial set tbh.

I have tested and Relequen performs worse than hundings by around 1.5k dps before it reaches max stacks.
My testings were probs bad, but the understanding is easy, Rele 5% dung dmg wont do much.
What other set is there? I don't know any good trial sets.

Sure, Rele require build-up but most of op pve do: Kinras, Tzogvin, Kilt. Do you play on vet? Because on normal surely it can perform worse than set with permanent boost (my favourite Azura do not even trigger because all mobs are dying before reaching 20 stacks ^^), but it really shines at harder difficullty.

I really like trial sets. They helped me to improve performance and even done some Trifecta.

Vicious Ophidian/False God is imho must have for some serious solo gameplay.

SulXan is probably most powerful sets of all, but it will not work for some dungeons or trials.

Bahsei is also nice, but it require far more experience than Rele

Yandir is nice too, and imho better than Siroria, especially when you want to boost your proc dmg sets, like Nerenieth and others.

Infallible Mage is great when you are going for heavy attack build and they can be really powerful this patch, with modified charged trait.

Other sets like Lokkestitz or War Machine are more situational and rather designed to work with dedicated group, so solo or pugs would not work with them, unless you are Necro ^^

My Stamden I went way out of the box recently. Running undaunted infiltrator with EC on the front bar and a VMA lightning on the back with flame enchant. No need to BT any more with th 15% EC crit, no need for Fighting finesse either so I put the points into weapons expert so now my LA are boosted by CP, my body set and also the vMA staff. There is no buildup required for this set and you are hitting hard after dropping wall and winters revenge. Just have to be good at landing your light attacks.

Ippokrates · December 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

As Sorc you don't need barbed trap on front bar, cause every class skill you have on bar improve your dmg. So it is enough to get minor force from Psijic on back bar.

Also, you do not have any trial set? It's good to have one, because with minor slayer they are usually more efficient than dungeon sets.

I don't really like any trial set tbh.

I have tested and Relequen performs worse than hundings by around 1.5k dps before it reaches max stacks.
My testings were probs bad, but the understanding is easy, Rele 5% dung dmg wont do much.
What other set is there? I don't know any good trial sets.

Sure, Rele require build-up but most of op pve do: Kinras, Tzogvin, Kilt. Do you play on vet? Because on normal surely it can perform worse than set with permanent boost (my favourite Azura do not even trigger because all mobs are dying before reaching 20 stacks ^^), but it really shines at harder difficullty.

I really like trial sets. They helped me to improve performance and even done some Trifecta.

Vicious Ophidian/False God is imho must have for some serious solo gameplay.

SulXan is probably most powerful sets of all, but it will not work for some dungeons or trials.

Bahsei is also nice, but it require far more experience than Rele

Yandir is nice too, and imho better than Siroria, especially when you want to boost your proc dmg sets, like Nerenieth and others.

Infallible Mage is great when you are going for heavy attack build and they can be really powerful this patch, with modified charged trait.

Other sets like Lokkestitz or War Machine are more situational and rather designed to work with dedicated group, so solo or pugs would not work with them, unless you are Necro ^^

My Stamden I went way out of the box recently. Running undaunted infiltrator with EC on the front bar and a VMA lightning on the back with flame enchant. No need to BT any more with th 15% EC crit, no need for Fighting finesse either so I put the points into weapons expert so now my LA are boosted by CP, my body set and also the vMA staff. There is no buildup required for this set and you are hitting hard after dropping wall and winters revenge. Just have to be good at landing your light attacks.

Yeah, did similar build but with stamsorc and 2nd Undaunted, Molag Kena, with inferno staff - it hitted really hard, 30k LA on average, but playing with it was so annoying, i switched to Lightning HA - this is working for me so much better. I have also tried Moon/Blood? Hunter, the set with LA speed up - but once I mastered weaving, switching to LA spamming turn out to be quite unpleasant for me - but i admit, it was a fun to play it

MashmalloMan · December 2021

For Stam Sorc, if you're looking for a replacement to Barbed Trap while using Tzogvin, you can do Anti Calvary Caltrops (with vet content in mind). You're trading Major Breach which should already be supplied for you for 5 extra seconds which equates to more dps and lines up with Hurricane/Endless Hail timers.

Basically in my opinion, if a skill does more damage per cast than your spammable, it's usually worth a slot on your bar. For comparison using base tooltips:

Caltrops: 316 x 15 = 5205... * 1.05 for the Sorc's passive = 5465
Barbed Trap: 1161 + 2778 (dot) = 3939
Crystal Weapon: 2323

1. You're trading AY's 17% crit/129 weapon damage for Tzogvin's 14% crit/1487 pen. Since Stam players need at least 3-4k pen which is also a stronger set stat than weapon damage. This helps close the gap between the 2 sets and allows you to run more Medium pieces or less maces/sharpened for more daggers/precise. They're close to the same in value when you consider each change it makes.
2. Tzogvin is easier to keep up than AY, however, it's more punishing as not having the 10 stacks means you get no minor force.
3. You're trading Barbed Trap's 3.9k damage over 18s for Anti Calvary Caltrops 5.46k damage over 15s. Thats a 38% damage boost per cast, it's entirely aoe, and fits better in your rotation as it lines up with Hurricane/Endless Hail.
4. Having more cleave and being more mobile with your rotation is great for dungeons. I would still not replace Relequen as it doesn't hurt your dps that much vs aoe situations, but vastly improves your single target dps for boss situations.

MashmalloMan · December 2021

Side note, Whirling Blades for DW is not a fantastic Execute as it only does about 50% more than a spammable for something you use maybe in the last 25% of a fight - with such limited bar space and a lot of powerful skills to choose from, you may not need an execute at all since Sorc's damage is very front loaded. It's also very expensive to use.

Using base tooltips again. Bound Armaments for exmaple does 3,888 damage, 67% stronger than Crystal Weapons 2323. Whirling Blades does 1800 base, up to 3600 at 0% health or 2700 at 25% health (+ passive execute/cc boosts). Having 1 skill on your bar for that small of a window that is barely stronger than skills you can use the entire fight is less advantagous.

Deadly Cloak for example does 4902 (+ passive execute/cc boosts), provides Major Evasion and can be used the entire fight. Tormentor and Clanfear, same thing, don't even need to be cast.

Try this instead (with your interest in using Tzogvin):

Front - Clanfear - Tormentor - Crystal Weapon (group support), Crushing Weapon (solo), Flurry(group dps/healing) or Silver Shards(aoe) as spammable - Deadly Cloak - Bound Armaments

Back - Clanfear - Tormentor - Hurricane - Endless Hail - Anti Calvary Caltrops

For solo content where you may need healing or don't want to use Weapon Power pots, swap Clanfear for Crit Surge on back bar and Camo Hunter on front bar. Tormentor now does more dps than Clanfear single target.

If you were using 2H on front, it'd be a different story, 2H has much stronger skills in comparison. Stampede, Executioner, Wrecking Blow, are all stronger than their DW counterparts, but the passives are weaker. DW works well to augment classes like Sorc that use many other skills with limited bar space because they all get buffed by DW's passives, while 2H works better if you rely heavily on weapon skills.

francesinhalover · December 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Side note, Whirling Blades for DW is not a fantastic Execute as it only does about 50% more than a spammable for something you use maybe in the last 25% of a fight - with such limited bar space and a lot of powerful skills to choose from, you may not need an execute at all since Sorc's damage is very front loaded. It's also very expensive to use.

Using base tooltips again. Bound Armaments for exmaple does 3,888 damage, 67% stronger than Crystal Weapons 2323. Whirling Blades does 1800 base, up to 3600 at 0% health or 2700 at 25% health (+ passive execute/cc boosts). Having 1 skill on your bar for that small of a window that is barely stronger than skills you can use the entire fight is less advantagous.

Deadly Cloak for example does 4902 (+ passive execute/cc boosts), provides Major Evasion and can be used the entire fight. Tormentor and Clanfear, same thing, don't even need to be cast.

Try this instead (with your interest in using Tzogvin):

Front - Clanfear - Tormentor - Crystal Weapon (group support), Crushing Weapon (solo), Flurry(group dps/healing) or Silver Shards(aoe) as spammable - Deadly Cloak - Bound Armaments

Back - Clanfear - Tormentor - Hurricane - Endless Hail - Anti Calvary Caltrops

For solo content where you may need healing or don't want to use Weapon Power pots, swap Clanfear for Crit Surge on back bar and Camo Hunter on front bar. Tormentor now does more dps than Clanfear single target.

If you were using 2H on front, it'd be a different story, 2H has much stronger skills in comparison. Stampede, Executioner, Wrecking Blow, are all stronger than their DW counterparts, but the passives are weaker. DW works well to augment classes like Sorc that use many other skills with limited bar space because they all get buffed by DW's passives, while 2H works better if you rely heavily on weapon skills.

Whats your opinion on shrouded daggers?

Why tormentor...is magica...when did the huge flying demon get so strong?

Should clanfear be buffed?

Do you think tormentor will get nerfs? Its just that lvling up skills isnt that fun for me

MudcrabAttack · December 2021

I like relequen + tzogvin for boss fights, but I have a ranged play style. For pure melee barbed trap is pretty strong combined with a different 2nd set like pillar of nirn. A lot of dungeons have really short boss fights, and prebuffing with the psijic skill seems to work out

For AOE trash fights however tzogvin/relequen takes too long to wind up, pillar of nirn doesn’t hit much, so I swap into the psijic skill + sul-xan + a set that adds 600 weapon damage to most AOE skills, like sword singer for stampede/carve/wrecking blow/reverse slice buffs. Or swamp raider for stamblade skill buffs+acid spray/lethal arrow

Thrassian stranglers is really strong for 4 player dungeons since it gives loads of weapon/spell damage, it buffs pillar and relequen by a ton. There’s usually 50 stacks long before reaching the end boss, unless you’re in a group that avoids fighting things