ZeroDPS wrote: »

WHEN being tank/healer will be rewarded, ONLY then more people will play as tank/healer. otherwise we have what we have....

Then you have to lock these two roles, otherwise more people will que as fake because of the rewards. Where is the logic ?

Locking those two roles is the only way to solve this problem imo and support it.

Cheers

Raideen wrote: »

Hawco10 wrote: »

There are fake dps.
As a healer, I expect dps to be able to do the following.
1. Work as a team
2. Have the skills to do the assigned task.
3. Have a working knowledge of the task (s) required.
4. Be cognizant of the gear to wear.
5. Be cognizant of the CP set up.
6. Be cognizant of the fact that they are joining a group that will be relying on them to destroy the targets.
Anyone who doesn’t meet the above are (in my opinion) actively deceiving the group and are worse than a fake tank as the fake tank in all honesty, is probably a random farming gear or someone who want to get through a daily. And will know what they are doing.

Occam's Razor suggests that there are few, if any "fake" DPS. That DPS who do not good damange are not doing so intentionally, but rather do so at a lack of understanding how to DPS in the first place.

I have been playing since 2017. Studied tons of guilds, watched countless Alcast, Lucky Ghost, the Minotaur guy and other streamers, you tubers. I still can't pull over 35k on a target dummy WITH weaving. I run my infused spell damage on the back bar, I run my spell power buff from the mages guild, I push my crit as high as I can get, 50 to 66 depending on the class. I make sure to use a debuff to lower the resistance of the mob and I go through a rotation with these, a dot or two and my spammable.

I still cant get over 35k and I live in the same state that the PCNA server are on, I run a 9900k with an RTX 2080, 32g ram and 100 up down fiber.

The "fake" DPS are mostly people who simply do not understand the convoluted and uncomfortable combat system in ESO.

We are not talking about 35k DPS here. We are talking about 5-8k DPS.

nightstrike wrote: »

Hawco10 wrote: »

There are fake dps.
As a healer, I expect dps to be able to do the following.
1. Work as a team
2. Have the skills to do the assigned task.
3. Have a working knowledge of the task (s) required.
4. Be cognizant of the gear to wear.
5. Be cognizant of the CP set up.
6. Be cognizant of the fact that they are joining a group that will be relying on them to destroy the targets.

A fake tank is a dps or healer queuing as a tank to get a shorter wait time.

A fake dps would be a tank or healer queuing as dps to get a ....... longer...... wait time. Possible, sure, but rather unlikely.

What you are describing is a dps that isn't up to your standards of player, but is still a player who is trying to deal damage vs trying to heal others or hold aggro. That isn't a fake dps.

Who says that they are trying to begin with? You assuming that they must be trying to fill the role, but a good number of them is just there to be carried along without any intention of doing anything.

nightstrike wrote: »

Hawco10 wrote: »

There are fake dps.
As a healer, I expect dps to be able to do the following.
1. Work as a team
2. Have the skills to do the assigned task.
3. Have a working knowledge of the task (s) required.
4. Be cognizant of the gear to wear.
5. Be cognizant of the CP set up.
6. Be cognizant of the fact that they are joining a group that will be relying on them to destroy the targets.

A fake tank is a dps or healer queuing as a tank to get a shorter wait time.

A fake dps would be a tank or healer queuing as dps to get a ....... longer...... wait time. Possible, sure, but rather unlikely.

What you are describing is a dps that isn't up to your standards of player, but is still a player who is trying to deal damage vs trying to heal others or hold aggro. That isn't a fake dps.

If by my standards you mean my expectation is that someone will join the group fully prepared-i.e “Do I have the ability to do the job y/n?”
Then you are correct. What I can’t and won’t accept is someone joining fully aware that they cannot fulfill the role at hand, has no intention of being part of the team, runs ahead on their own and dies repeatedly, does not respond to mechanics guidance etc. Is it unreasonable to expect more ? I think not.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Do I get to yell at the fake DPS when I queue as an actual tank, in tank gear, and still do 50%+ of the DPS?

or when I queue as a real healer (with a resto staff!!) and do 80%+?

That doesn't make them fake, just makes them bad.

tmbrinks wrote: »

All that said, you can put on two crafted mag sets, have 400+ cp, run a templar, spam sweeps with no weaving and you'll still pull about 15-20k boss dps, so that's what I would consider the "floor" for a dps. (or spam swallow soul, or birds, or whip, etc...)

I get about 12-13k dps in dungeons. So I guess I'm a fake DPS

Hawco10 wrote: »

nightstrike wrote: »

A fake tank is a dps or healer queuing as a tank to get a shorter wait time.

A fake dps would be a tank or healer queuing as dps to get a ....... longer...... wait time. Possible, sure, but rather unlikely.

What you are describing is a dps that isn't up to your standards of player, but is still a player who is trying to deal damage vs trying to heal others or hold aggro. That isn't a fake dps.

If by my standards you mean my expectation is that someone will join the group fully prepared-i.e “Do I have the ability to do the job y/n?”
Then you are correct. What I can’t and won’t accept is someone joining fully aware that they cannot fulfill the role at hand, has no intention of being part of the team, runs ahead on their own and dies repeatedly, does not respond to mechanics guidance etc. Is it unreasonable to expect more ? I think not.

Then I suggest you create a thread where that would be considered on topic. The topic here is regarding a specific case of DPS's queuing as healers or tanks to beat the wait times. What you are describing is completely different and considerably off topic.

I'm not really sure why you are trying to change the topic of the thread. Are you one of those DPS's that queues as a tank to beat the wait times?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

. I still cant get over 35k and I live in the same state that the PCNA server are on, I run a 9900k with an RTX 2080, 32g ram and 100 up down fiber.

The "fake" DPS are mostly people who simply do not understand the convoluted and uncomfortable combat system in ESO.

35k is good dps to me in a pug dungeon, frankly. Most people are at 10k-20k range and I wouldn't call them fake dps either because that's achieved by using damage skills and using damage gear, but just there's no rotations or anything like that.

Fake DPS are the ones not even pulling the 10k-20k because they are not actually trying to do damage but instead focused on something else (usually survivability).

Fake dps and bad dps are different because there is a lack of effort in even trying to do dps. Someone pulling less than 10k dps is not sincerely trying. They are doing things like building to be tanky because they think survival is more important than damage, and often explicitly state this. Or only using light attacks.

You do not need good gear, rotations, weaving, or any other complex system to hit 10k.

Devil's advocate: Aren't they building tanky because they don't feel they're getting reliable support from tanks and healers?

A dead DPS deals zero damage so survival is certainly important.

This game is quite odd. Newbies die early on while soloing so they think they need more HP and armor.

Characters have three ability scores and need them all -- so surely it's just a matter of emphasis on where you put points, but you put some in everything right?

Nope. The way to survive as a DPS ... 'never put any points into health or defenses'.

It's entirely 'the best defense is a good offense'.

Very head-scratchy that all characters have three attribute scores -- but nobody is supposed to do anything but dump 100% into a single one in PvE. Aside from maybe some tanks.

Raideen wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

We are not talking about 35k DPS here. We are talking about 5-8k DPS.

I understand that. The point is by all metrics, I should be able to parse 110k with the stuff I have been reading and building for since 2017, and yet I still cant do it.

Someone who is newer and less educated about how to build a class, and do a rotation is going to do much less. This has nothing to do with them being fake, as in queuing for a role they are not built for and more to do with doing damage in ESO not being easy to understand.

The tanks that queue for fast dungeon runs however ARE fake tanks. Often with no taunt, and no respect for the rest of the dungeon mates.

A "fake DPS" would be a tank or healer, queuing as a DPS role, but why would they when their queues are faster as a tank or healer.

I get your point but i disagree.

As an inexperienced player you have to choice of improving yourself or not. You can regularly say players that choose to not even try. I see DDs that spam a single skill and then wait for 30s in a corner to recharge. I see some who do an attack every 2-3 seconds. All of them are bad and at a point where they could improve themselves but they dont. They dont want to spend any time or efford on that at all. This makes them fake because they have no intention of filling the role. They want everyone else to do it for them and ive met some that openly said exactly that.

For me a fake role is a player that queues for a role with no intention of filling it, either by active action or by simply not caring.

Sheezabeast wrote: »

The difference, an important difference, is that a 'fake dps' is still slotting dps skills and outputting some dps. A 'fake tank' is not slotting crowd control or a taunt. Big difference you guys are glazing over. You cannot glaze over this.

No, a lot of them aren't even using damage skills. They'll literally just spam bow light attacks and call it a day. And their bar will be loaded up with like heals and stuff that they have but basically never use.

Xebov wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

The difference, an important difference, is that a 'fake dps' is still slotting dps skills and outputting some dps. A 'fake tank' is not slotting crowd control or a taunt. Big difference you guys are glazing over. You cannot glaze over this.

yea its a diffrence but it doesnt matter
a fake dps will still do no dmg
and a fake tank will still not tank

where is the diffrence ? the intention? yea maybe but the effect is the same

To me there are four main differences, two are objective, the other two are subjective:

- The *alleged* fake dps will spend on average between 10 and 20 mins in the queue where the fake tank/healer will spend on average between no time at all and 45s.
- The fake tank/healers, from the outset, have zero intention of performing they task they queued for.
- Because the fake tank/healers are deliberately engaging in a deceitful practice, in most cases having enough self-awareness to acknowledge this fact at least to themselves, for their own benefit and potentially at the expense of the other prospective group members they experience at least a modicum of mental discomfort; to deal with this discomfort they need to come up with justifications, again at least to themselves; the stronger the criticism the more outlandish they become, to the point that many end up with the 'I am Zenithar's gift to your group' or 'you are all extras in my film' attitude.
- Ultimately, in my own limited experience, fake tanks/healers are significantly more abundant, at least in random normals, than *alleged* fake dps. Probably in the region of 10:1.

While your obervation is mostly right tehre is a catch to that. A fake tank is a DD that effects mostly DDs and some of the Healers, but not real Tanks. Fake DDs however effect Tanks and Healers heavily and other DDs not so much. This leads to less real Tanks and Healers queueing.
Since they added curated drops i ran something between 200 and 300 DLC dungeons on normal. Half of my groups dealth 25k DPS or less with some not even hitting the 20k mark. If i remove my 4k that averages from less than 8k to up to 10k per DD which is next to nothing and some groups ended up as some sort of carry run.

The ultimative problem you are running into is that DDs complain alot about fake roles because they are the ones most impacted. If fake roles wouldnt exist they would complain about long queue times, what they did in the past. The result is that everyone would like real Tanks and Healers to be available in decent supply but is to bussy demanding their issue fixed while completely denying the problems that real tanks/healers have that causes them to not pug at all. That problem is low quality of random DDs and as soon the wording "fake DD" comes into play it gets heavily downplayed without being recognized while expecting support players to magically do something.

I am not downplaying it as such, is just that I don't encounter sub-par dps players as much as I find fake tanks healers, probably because I queue as dps myself.

And as a dps another dps in lieu of a support character doesn't really bring that much to the table for me. It only means that I have to slot self-heals and sources of major/minor breach, factor in sustain and there is going to be a lot more kiting and dodging to achieve the same objective with no significant reduction on the duration of the whole 'experience' because many bosses have unskippable 'phases' anyway.

So, again from my personal perspective fake tanks/healers only bring more work for me, do not really impact the overall duration that much because remember that as opposed to them I have already been queueing for 10-20 minutes, often bring expectations of their own: 'ignore chests/skip/now run/etc etc' because from their no-queue point of view 20 extra seconds is akin to a tooth extraction, and so on and so forth.

To put it as short and simple as possible, fake tanks/healer are more detrimental to my overall experience than 'fake' dds while carrying the extra baggage of engaging in a practice that I personally find objectionable.

A character that can taunt and inflict major/minor breach using a single skill every 15 seconds and another one that can throw combat prayer and a couple of orbs because who doesn't like sustain[*] bring much more - for me - to the dungeon than whatever fake tanks/healers think they bring along with them, with 1/10th of the aggro and the drama.

[*] That's not all support characters can or indeed do, that is just the extent of my expectations.