Amottica wrote: »

Eiregirl wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I agree that not everyone will learn to play the game well enough and those that do not put the time in will clearly not be able to adjust to changes in the game well. This is what separates the great players from the good players from the not-so-good players. The massive hurdle mentioned, while different in ESO, is there in other games. It is why such a small percentage of player clear the most challenging raids on the most challenging difficulty in major MMORPGs.

Those that put the time in to be a great player, even a good player, do reap rewards in experiencing shorter fights which in turn means fewer rotations of mechanics and get to avoid the roughest of mechanics such as enrage timers that will wipe the entire group. It is this way in every combat-based MMORPG and will continue to be as it makes sense. It is the same reason why MMORPGs make different difficulty levels. Those that can do HM. Those that do not want to put in that effort have a vet or even normal mode.

Heck, even if Zenimax removed the LA weaving the same group of top players will still be the top players and those that struggle to do good damage will still struggle to do good damage.

LAs are not the reason.

Amottica, I agree with what you have said so just to be asking the questions.
If weaving LAs are not the reason then why not get rid of them?
Why do so many people argue so forcefully and sometimes become outright mean to people discussing improving styles other than weaving LAs for dealing damage?
Why do so many people advocate to get rid of LA weaving or to improve other methods of dealing damage?

I personally do not advocate for getting rid of an old bug that has become part of the game and a play style that many people depend upon but I do try to inform people that there are other ways to be good at the game maybe not leaderboard good but still good enough to complete any content...if they can follow mechanics...if they can't that is a totally different set of problems.

Last year Zenimax tested in a special and focused PTS a major rework to the basic attacks that, in part, would have removed the emphasis on light attacks for doing damage. The longer the channel the more damage would be done and resource return would be moved to the light attack. This was an attempt to gain our feedback on some experimental changes earlier in the process than the normal PTS cycle.

Brian noted they received a lot of feedback both in-game and via the forums and in the end chose to not move forward with those changes. He also noted that the feedback varied based on role and differed between PvP and PvE. In the end, based on the feedback they received they chose to abandon this particular idea.

He did note that they would continue to "investigate ways to improve on light and heavy attacks to ensure they provide impactful moments, where it’s an important choice to pick and choose your attacks." Of course that also means that weaving basic attacks would still be part of the game as it has been in any idea they consider. That part is a given and Zenimax commented on that years ago.

I do not care either way if I am weaving LAs or medium attacks into my skills. I am not advocating that Zenimax should not change the emphasis. I am merely noting that a player can learn to play the game well, choose to not do LAs, and still do better damage than most. The skills we use to do damage, as a whole, is the largest source of the damage we do.

Amottica wrote: »

Eiregirl wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I agree that not everyone will learn to play the game well enough and those that do not put the time in will clearly not be able to adjust to changes in the game well. This is what separates the great players from the good players from the not-so-good players. The massive hurdle mentioned, while different in ESO, is there in other games. It is why such a small percentage of player clear the most challenging raids on the most challenging difficulty in major MMORPGs.

Those that put the time in to be a great player, even a good player, do reap rewards in experiencing shorter fights which in turn means fewer rotations of mechanics and get to avoid the roughest of mechanics such as enrage timers that will wipe the entire group. It is this way in every combat-based MMORPG and will continue to be as it makes sense. It is the same reason why MMORPGs make different difficulty levels. Those that can do HM. Those that do not want to put in that effort have a vet or even normal mode.

Heck, even if Zenimax removed the LA weaving the same group of top players will still be the top players and those that struggle to do good damage will still struggle to do good damage.

LAs are not the reason.

Amottica, I agree with what you have said so just to be asking the questions.
If weaving LAs are not the reason then why not get rid of them?
Why do so many people argue so forcefully and sometimes become outright mean to people discussing improving styles other than weaving LAs for dealing damage?
Why do so many people advocate to get rid of LA weaving or to improve other methods of dealing damage?

I personally do not advocate for getting rid of an old bug that has become part of the game and a play style that many people depend upon but I do try to inform people that there are other ways to be good at the game maybe not leaderboard good but still good enough to complete any content...if they can follow mechanics...if they can't that is a totally different set of problems.

Last year Zenimax tested in a special and focused PTS a major rework to the basic attacks that, in part, would have removed the emphasis on light attacks for doing damage. The longer the channel the more damage would be done and resource return would be moved to the light attack. This was an attempt to gain our feedback on some experimental changes earlier in the process than the normal PTS cycle.

Brian noted they received a lot of feedback both in-game and via the forums and in the end chose to not move forward with those changes. He also noted that the feedback varied based on role and differed between PvP and PvE. In the end, based on the feedback they received they chose to abandon this particular idea.

He did note that they would continue to "investigate ways to improve on light and heavy attacks to ensure they provide impactful moments, where it’s an important choice to pick and choose your attacks." Of course that also means that weaving basic attacks would still be part of the game as it has been in any idea they consider. That part is a given and Zenimax commented on that years ago.

I do not care either way if I am weaving LAs or medium attacks into my skills. I am not advocating that Zenimax should not change the emphasis. I am merely noting that a player can learn to play the game well, choose to not do LAs, and still do better damage than most. The skills we use to do damage, as a whole, is the largest source of the damage we do.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I first thought you canceled the skill animation but the hint during the loading screens seems to mean you interrupt the light attack. The light attack doesn’t last long so I am not sure how to do that. The cadence must be light attack then quickly hit a skill and not have them equally spaced out in time in a rhythm.

Anyway, spent too much time trying this and decided I was never going to be in a trials team so why bother?

Raideen wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Light attack weaving is a natural part of how the game functions, ZOS does not need to increase damage [snip]

That's a bit non constructive ^^ Try to add something at least.

[snip]

Its a natural part of learning if you wanna get into end game groups, if people want to get there they need to learn how to play the game not expect devs to give them an easy path to high dps

Light attack weaving itself does not incease the DPS, its the animation cancelling that does. Animation cancelling was not part of the game, it was a bug, an exploit that the developers could not figure out how to fix, so they instead embraced it and made it "part of the game".

There are a number of issues with this. For one, its not comfortable. It might be easy on a controller, but on a mouse keyboard it can be a very uncomfortable playstyle. Secondly, latency issues can affect the "weaving" and lower DPS.

This is not a "learn to play" issue as you suggest, there are other factors that come into play, some out of the control of the player.

[edited to remove quote]

Youyouz06 wrote: »

I'd suggest getting Perfect Weave (addon).
It has either soft of hard settings regarding global cool downs and in one setting will stop you from casting a skill until you have done the light attack. It sounds pretty nasty said like that, but it's a good way to teach yourself because well...there's an invisible wall stopping you from forgetting

(PS: It also stops you from casting double AOE skills...hate it when that happens)

colossalvoids wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Light attack weaving is a natural part of how the game functions, ZOS does not need to increase damage [snip]

That's a bit non constructive ^^ Try to add something at least.

[snip]

Its a natural part of learning if you wanna get into end game groups, if people want to get there they need to learn how to play the game not expect devs to give them an easy path to high dps

Light attack weaving itself does not incease the DPS, its the animation cancelling that does. Animation cancelling was not part of the game, it was a bug, an exploit that the developers could not figure out how to fix, so they instead embraced it and made it "part of the game".

There are a number of issues with this. For one, its not comfortable. It might be easy on a controller, but on a mouse keyboard it can be a very uncomfortable playstyle. Secondly, latency issues can affect the "weaving" and lower DPS.

This is not a "learn to play" issue as you suggest, there are other factors that come into play, some out of the control of the player.

[edited to remove quote]

Sorry but it sounds like you're might be bit wrong about weaving, ani cancelling and a "bug" part. Last one was addressed at first year of eso (by E. Wrobel himself), it's just an unexpected by developers way of using their gcd system for reactive combat they've came up with, where you can roll or block mid combat without dropping your skills damaging part, they liked weaving part and it was embraced, since then animation "tails" were cut significantly to smooth up the experience, we still see adjustment from year to year about how certain skills casted etc. Can they do better? Surely.

You can't ani cancel skills by light attacks, it's vice versa as you can cancel la animation by casting skills. Animation cancelling a skill you can do by blocking, bashing or dodging which not increasing your dps in pve (if you're not on a bash setup, la-skill-bash was nerfed long ago, but some of us are still bashing because why not) but act for survivability reasons, they matter way more in pvp as you can "hide" some casts and mitigate / avoid the damage more effectively using your knowledge of how combat essentially works.

Casting things on global cooldown is just cutting unnecessary millisecond "tails" that are prolonging unnecessary animations going into your characters idle state, while all the balancing of skills damage output made with gcd in mind, not a gcd+"tail". Last part just smoothening your animation exiting combat putting character into their combat stance, idle state etc. Light attacks using another gcd and it's not an "unintended" part nor a bug. Same goes for a bash. It's all together makes our experience fluid, some players probably doesn't realise that they ani cancel or weave while doing so every time they follow their light attack into bash to interrupt or using dodge mid aoe cast to prevent a one stot. Disabling this sort of stuff will ultimately break the game, obviously.

English is not my first language but that should cover it up a bit.