Does ZoS want more players in PVP? Ideas to achieve this?

katorga · October 2021

Playing Devil's Advocate....Why would ZOS want to expand PVP?

The forums and online content are a series of continual complaints that create a poor image of the product
PVP has a large amount of streamed toxic content, again not the best face to present to potential customers
The population is a small subset of the the potential pve population.
pvp has less potential to create in-game revenue

Kamchuk · October 2021

Its 3:30 EST (US) and the POP bars are 1 vs 1 vs 1. A year ago those bars would be 3 vs POP Locked vs POP Locked. That tells you the degradation of this game. This is absolutely the best MMO PVP game out there, otherwise there would not be thousands upon thousands of forum posts complaining about the major issues, primarily the performance and the ridiculous bugs. Most recently, (and my own pet peeve), the low pop bonus. (That one to me is like scratching a chalkboard with your fingernails, but that is just me, and discussed in another thread…).

I would pay to have these issues fixed. I would pay for a “battle pass” through a special PVP charge. That is how much I think of the excellent potential of this game. As one of the older players in this game, (yes I’m a Boomer, lol), I’m not interested in starting anything else. But you have to wonder WHY it has gotten to this point where NO ONE is playing PVP anymore. (And it is NOT because EP players cannot afford New World as was posted in another forum post. BTW that was great! LMAO). There is a ZOS server farm in Texas and one in Europe. But Microsoft has server farms ALL OVER the WORLD. Why not expand the server farms to other regions, especially to Oceania? This game could be a cash cow, just like Microsoft Office 360 where you pay $7.00 per month. But they have chosen not to. And they have chosen not to fix the basic complaints of every PVP player who loves this game. They have chosen to ignore the thousands of forum posts. I don’t understand it.

It is truly sad to see so much potential waisted. I don’t know if it is their business model, or lack of developer staffing, or their desire to see this games’ PVP just disappear so they can focus on their next Space Game coming out in 2022. But I won’t be a buyer for anything new coming down the road that I know will not be as good as this game could be.

Amottica · October 2021

Larcomar wrote: »

As others, I don't think it's a zos priority. Face it, pvp is a pretty niche activity in mmos, games that prioritise it tend to fail / convert and I suspect most pvp'rs don't contribute a lot of revenue - that comes from people buying new expansions to quest and from people buying cosmetics. Plus pvpr's are a very demanding, very vocal group who are constantly asking for performance improvements, balance adjustments etc and not afriad to shout the company down when they don't get it - the last sort of people you want to attract.
It would be nice though. As other's have said, the two key things to get existing pvp'rs back are performance and balance; sadly what they've done is introduce dark convergence, a set that seems to destroy both. There's been a long term decline in the pvp population ever since Zos tried to kill of pugs with the group size changes, but it feels like it's really gone down with the new sets. It's just not fun getting ping ponged around, pulled off siege, pulled off walls constantly. Personally I think they'll rue the day they introduced it.

As to getting pve'rs in.... I think we have to accept that there's some pve'rs who will just never pve. It's just not in their dna. There is though a group of people who might pvp, they just don't realise that they'd like it, or are interested but don't know where to start. I was certainly in that category; I couldn't conceive of pvping, thought it was for maladjusted teenagers, now I'm a regular. I think the key here is having some sort of learning curve; you jump into greyhost, you're not going to know what the hell is going on, are going to get obliterated when you do find a fight, and you're probably not going to come back.

We already have a baby pvp server in icereach and a newbie pvp server in Raven; I'd like to see Zos streamline and promote those. Some of that is structural - they need to sort out the mess of which sets do and do not work, maybe cut them down further and maybe look at some steps to raise the floor and lower the celing - a handicap in effect. Alot of it though is just presentational / advertising - they really ought to relabel those servers so it's clear their for baby / newbie pvp, set out a clear progression between them - does anyone know know how many cp you ned to compete equally in Greyhost? - and then have a couple of events to promote them with unique rewards for sub 50 pvp, newbie pvp etc.

I think a lot of this though is on us. The only reason I got into pvp was because I joined a guild that happened to do it and, as I don't tend to do trials, figured I should go along to one of their pvp events. They ran a baby pvp event every sunday afternoon with a fantastic raid leader who's talked you through how everything worked, what we were doing, why... all that stuff and would answer any (prob v dumb) questions you had - I think he's a teacher by profession. After that I started joing in the guild's casual pvp sessions in Ravenwatch. Nowadays, I often do the tactical sessions in greyhost and I cheerfully go in solo in the pm. At least when it's not DC central.

Tldr. If we want more people to pvp, I think pvper's - esp pvp guilds - need to actually go out, actively recruit new pvp'rs and teach them. That doesn't have to mean starting off in Icereach - it's pretty dead - but I think it does mean running sessions in raven to start. Not least because, witht the group size changes zos introduced, it's really hard to get a slot in a pug now. There arn't that many, they only have 12 slots and most of those are taken up with guildies / regulars. The number of people I see standing at northgate lfg'ing is ridiculous. You used to be able to go in after lunch, type + and get into a group immediately.

There are successful PvP games, but they have very different monetization schemes and are not this type of MMORPG. Fortnight is a great example. of a successful PvP game but the monetization is very different than ESO and such a PvP scheme would not be supported by the type of monetization we have here. BDO seems to be a very successful PvP game though it is also a lame PvE game. Granted, it does not have the quality ESO has and it also has a very different monetization scheme.

Games should focus on what works and not try to be like other games. While ESO should seriously try to fix Cyrodiil performance they should not try to change course and make PvP a significant priority as the game is very successful as a PvE-focused game.

AuraNebula · October 2021

The Cyrodiil crowd does bring a lot of revenue. They still buy all the dlcs and chapters, they spend crowns on houses, mounts, and crown crates. I'm not sure why you do not think they do not contribute to revenue.

PvE can be just as toxic as PvP, especially when you head into end game content. I can't tell you how many fake tank posts are made on this forum weekly.

I played PvE for years until it got boring. PvP offers a different chance to expand your playstyle. In PvE every fight is the same mechanics over and over. There is a lot of diversity when it comes to fights in PvP, and they are a lot more fun.

gariondavey · October 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

It kinda amazes me that people don't think pvpers spend money on this game....having access to the chapters/dlcs and things like scrying and jewelry crafting , psijic skill line, monster sets,vat weapons etc are all pretty essential to most people's pvp experience....just always weird to see people regularly making that argument...

No that not what I am saying. We obviously spend money, but no where near as much as the real whales do. Neither of us have the real data to show the actual numbers, but if you look at what parts of the game get the most dev attention we can sus out who is spending the most money. They aren't going to waste money on pvp when their is no way to monetize it. Can't put p2w elements or we would quit. If they put in a battle pass though they can start milking pvp and get more people interested.

I'm huge into pvp. A ton of pvpers I know spend tons of money on this game.
Cosmetics are super important to pvpers.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

It kinda amazes me that people don't think pvpers spend money on this game....having access to the chapters/dlcs and things like scrying and jewelry crafting , psijic skill line, monster sets,vat weapons etc are all pretty essential to most people's pvp experience....just always weird to see people regularly making that argument...

No that not what I am saying. We obviously spend money, but no where near as much as the real whales do. Neither of us have the real data to show the actual numbers, but if you look at what parts of the game get the most dev attention we can sus out who is spending the most money. They aren't going to waste money on pvp when their is no way to monetize it. Can't put p2w elements or we would quit. If they put in a battle pass though they can start milking pvp and get more people interested.

I'm huge into pvp. A ton of pvpers I know spend tons of money on this game.
Cosmetics are super important to pvpers.

Its not pvp exclusive though and we are a super minority. I fight the same 50 something people every day I play! Idk if zos has any real way of looking at how much a pvper spends or really anyway of identifying us at all. They must have some idea though because you wouldn't let the pvp scene decay into ruin if we were big spenders. A battlepass would be a for sure way of getting money from pvpers and it would draw more people into pvp. With how many other games are going the battle pass route I am pretty surprised they haven't done it yet. Its a proven way of generating money from pvp. Some games even have totally free battle passes, so it must be working pretty effectively to keep people playing at the very least.

Eso's pvp may be so far gone that even a battle pass couldn't save it. They may have to skip an entire chapter and focus the whole team on pvp to pull it back from the grave I fear. At the very least any battle pass needs to be accompanied by a massive improvement to pvp performance and bug fixes. No point in drawing in more people to cyrodiil if the servers get bogged down from the influx of new players.

Elo106 · October 2021

PvPers are not just PvPers though, so the spending argument is kinda meh

I mainly play this game for PvP but I also did a lot of housing stuff. A guildmate spends a lot on crates for radiant mounts (main pvp). PvP players are not just PvP players they also do housing, buy crates, pve etc

The biggest streams/content on twitch and youtube were always PvP though, and just for advertising alone pvp updates should be worth it.

techyeshic · October 2021

As a PVPer, I'd say that it's not that PVPers don't buy stuff; it's that there aren't near as many as there are primarily PvE players or otherwise more here for something like Elder Scrolls lore. Do you think it's a coincidence that the one consistently populated faction is the area covered by Skyrim?

wazzz56 · October 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

PvPers are not just PvPers though, so the spending argument is kinda meh

I mainly play this game for PvP but I also did a lot of housing stuff. A guildmate spends a lot on crates for radiant mounts (main pvp). PvP players are not just PvP players they also do housing, buy crates, pve etc

The biggest streams/content on twitch and youtube were always PvP though, and just for advertising alone pvp updates should be worth it.

yeah my house is a shiny glowy paradise island , @geonsocal can attest

deleted220614-000183 · October 2021

I don't care about PVP at all.

Basic idea of PVP gaming is twisted from the beginning.
In real world one shot fired from any weapon from any distance means that the target is dead or severely wounded. End of the story. Any armor or level or combat experience doesn't matter at all.
I doubt players would be willing to hide themselves one day to prepare perfect ambush and then wait another day for one perfect shot at random victim. Doesn't sounds much funny, is it.

PVE is quite different story as mobs are virtual products and has no feelings and no brains and no logic and they don't complain if somebody kills them on spot 1000x per day and will respawn without problems for 1001 time.

In PVP there is a relatively small community of ******* (yes know this word is not good to use openly) and these has obsession to kill other players for fun, because mobs are not satisfying them enough.
I think gaming industry is aware of these ******* and try to make fun out of their obsession.

The problem is that for one happy player who killed somebody else exist one ore more unhappy players who get killed.
In long term it makes people unhappy because everybody wants to win and nobody wants to be defeated.

The only system that works is to hoard a lot of noobs (cannon fodder) to please couple of veteran players (payers) who can kil them for fun as they want as they are mobs.

But this system is not sustainable in ESO as it's economy depends on wide community of players willing to spend real money in crownstore for DLC zones, chapters etc, not on a bunch of PVP *****.

So I think the current ESO PVP system reflects reality and has relatively small priority (still much more priority then it actually deserves)

wazzz56 · October 2021

@trpajzla mentioning anything having to do with irl concerning a game where you can shoot lighting out of your fingers and go invisible by kneeling down is laughable ...not to mention the cat people, lizard men, dragons etc...but yeah let's compare pvp to the real word.....

Elo106 · October 2021

trpajzla wrote: »

I don't care about PVP at all.

What does real life combat have to do with a fantasy game pvp, and one shots?
Its not about just killing some other player, its about using your skills to counter skills your opponent uses against you.

The unpredictable nature of PVP is what makes it exciting, a mob will always do the same thing, thats why PVE skill is mainly doing your rotation fast enough and having enough DPS, or healing/tanking, not about countering X with Y.

Dieing in PVP making you unhappy is not true for everyone either, I made friends with a great pvper and dueled him for hours, didnt kill him once, but I improved fighting him and that was more fun I had than weeks of dungeons combined.

You have a very limited view of PvP just defaulting to winner = happy, loser = sad, that is not how games work for the majority of the player base.

AuraNebula · October 2021

trpajzla wrote: »

The problem is that for one happy player who killed somebody else exist one ore more unhappy players who get killed.
In long term it makes people unhappy because everybody wants to win and nobody wants to be defeated.

A video game does not equate to how happy you are. You are the only person who can determine if you are happy or miserable. I kill people in pvp and I die in pvp, probably more than I kill. When I die I reflect on what I did wrong and try to improve from my failure. That makes you a better player, and will make it so you are not easily defeated.

It's a game at the end of the day. People who play Pvp arent mass murders. We're just a bunch of nerds with controllers.

geonsocal · October 2021

wazzz56 wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

PvPers are not just PvPers though, so the spending argument is kinda meh

I mainly play this game for PvP but I also did a lot of housing stuff. A guildmate spends a lot on crates for radiant mounts (main pvp). PvP players are not just PvP players they also do housing, buy crates, pve etc

The biggest streams/content on twitch and youtube were always PvP though, and just for advertising alone pvp updates should be worth it.

yeah my house is a shiny glowy paradise island , @geonsocal can attest

i done seen the glory with me own eyes

before the time when all sorts of shiny's could be bought via crown store...you had to actually go in grind all the nice furnishing crap...

geonsocal · October 2021

AuraNebula wrote: »

trpajzla wrote: »

The problem is that for one happy player who killed somebody else exist one ore more unhappy players who get killed.
In long term it makes people unhappy because everybody wants to win and nobody wants to be defeated.

A video game does not equate to how happy you are. You are the only person who can determine if you are happy or miserable.

while i agree with your premise that no one can tell you how you feel, not so sure though about the part where others are not capable of accurately evaluating the state of your feelings...

davelbier · November 2021

I just want mini cyro maps -- I just started playing BGs when the DM only change hit. I didn't really like any of the modes, and I don't like BG play. IC is a drag unless there is an event - just let me go back to my base without it feeling like a chore, please.

Anyway, I want mini-cyro/BG+ sort of zone. 48-64 players per side, tops. 3 keeps, and some level of capture the flag or something involved. Performance in cyro can be decent when the pop count is low -- just bring the whole thing to 1/5 the scale, ever alliance gets a main keep with a flag to be stolen for AP and a bonus [and that resets every eh, 15 or 20 minutes], and 2 small outposts you can flip around. Now instead of a server processing all that space and several hundred players its manageable, performance can be decent, and we can have some of the fun of cyro without the boring bits.

Maybe cap each round as a 'campaign' at an hour or two and run a handful of them at once.

disclaimer: i have not thought this entirely through, but if you just let me battles around ales bridge all day with a good crowd and no lag I am a happy camper and IDGAF who even wins.

ashadris · November 2021

Buff magcro and ill rethink about playing pvp

auz · November 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

It kinda amazes me that people don't think pvpers spend money on this game....having access to the chapters/dlcs and things like scrying and jewelry crafting , psijic skill line, monster sets,vat weapons etc are all pretty essential to most people's pvp experience....just always weird to see people regularly making that argument...

No that not what I am saying. We obviously spend money, but no where near as much as the real whales do. Neither of us have the real data to show the actual numbers, but if you look at what parts of the game get the most dev attention we can sus out who is spending the most money. They aren't going to waste money on pvp when their is no way to monetize it. Can't put p2w elements or we would quit. If they put in a battle pass though they can start milking pvp and get more people interested.

I'm huge into pvp. A ton of pvpers I know spend tons of money on this game.
Cosmetics are super important to pvpers.

²
It's true. You can't stomp people into the ground when you don't look your best. DLC motifs and apex mounts add 10k weapon damage, 10k armour and 400 awesome.

auz · November 2021

trpajzla wrote: »

I don't care about PVP at all.

Basic idea of PVP gaming is twisted from the beginning.
In real world one shot fired from any weapon from any distance means that the target is dead or severely wounded. End of the story. Any armor or level or combat experience doesn't matter at all.
I doubt players would be willing to hide themselves one day to prepare perfect ambush and then wait another day for one perfect shot at random victim. Doesn't sounds much funny, is it.

PVE is quite different story as mobs are virtual products and has no feelings and no brains and no logic and they don't complain if somebody kills them on spot 1000x per day and will respawn without problems for 1001 time.

In PVP there is a relatively small community of ******* (yes know this word is not good to use openly) and these has obsession to kill other players for fun, because mobs are not satisfying them enough.
I think gaming industry is aware of these ******* and try to make fun out of their obsession.

The problem is that for one happy player who killed somebody else exist one ore more unhappy players who get killed.
In long term it makes people unhappy because everybody wants to win and nobody wants to be defeated.

The only system that works is to hoard a lot of noobs (cannon fodder) to please couple of veteran players (payers) who can kil them for fun as they want as they are mobs.

But this system is not sustainable in ESO as it's economy depends on wide community of players willing to spend real money in crownstore for DLC zones, chapters etc, not on a bunch of PVP *****.

So I think the current ESO PVP system reflects reality and has relatively small priority (still much more priority then it actually deserves)

This has always been my gripe with PVE. In real life a bite from a dragon is always fatal with only a 50% chance of respawn.

motemeno · November 2021

zoS doesn't want a good pvp community, they want to work on new content, so they can get more moneys. Pvp doesn't bring them money, casual players enjoying the new maps and quests do.
Think how much they ignored the pvp if it's more than 1 year and they haven't fixed the lag in cyrodil.

PancakeHead · November 2021

I think adding more to Cyrodil (I spend an enormous amount of time on my mount just going wherever), making NPC's weaker (and less of them in IC) and incentives for killing or playing, such as gold whenever you kill another player, ten transmute crystals if you kill 40, or what not. I have to spend enormous amounts of time not doing PVP for transmute crystals and gold to change and upgrade the gear I want to use for PVP.

IC should probably just be revamped in someway. On the PS4/5 NA server it is basically dead all the time. I ran around every zone last night and saw no one. The only reason I even go there is to try to get tel var to buy hakeijo to sell for gold.

Rory_FightingToFifty · November 2021

PvP suffers from many things…he is simply learned behavior. After seven years, players all play pvp in a pretty predictable fashion, from how keeps are assaulted, to the specific 12 square inches everyone stands to kills specific NPCs.

Personally, I would have moved the cyrodiil war story line forward years ago. Just overhaul the map and it’s mechanics. “In year ten of the Great War, the keeps collapsed, giving rise to a new string of fortresses along the western front” and blah blah.

Or even easier, bring dragons to cyrodiil. Make zergs attract dragons. There are a lot of possibilities…but the creative team uses that tile in irony, I think.

SimonThesis · November 2021

Zos and the online guides do not do a good job of preparing people for PVP. If you don't have 30k HP and decent crit resist than you'll probably get one shot. You could bring golden perfected trial gear into cyrodiil and get easily one shot. The extreme meta difference from Pve makes it a challenging learning curve. The game doesnt do a good enough job of teaching people. This responsibility has mainly fallen onto the pvp guilds and not everyone has a slot for a pvp guild.

And the lag and the bugs that never seem to get fixed just make things worse!

Gilvoth · November 2021

remove animation canceling and more people will join pvp.

Bashev · November 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

Moba Style Lane Pushing
Would be a game mode where you help your Npcs push Keeps over several fronts, spreading your forces across the map, could be any group size really. Guard your Npcs and kill the enemies to push and conquer their keeps.

Sadly Zos doesnt seem to want to add anything until Cyro is fixed, so instead of new PvP content we get.. nothing.
After all the tests they put us through I would have hoped for a "road ahead" type of post for long term PvP features.

That could be really interesting mode. Great idea.

BulletMagnetX · December 2021

It's the learning curve that does it. Not only is it steep, but you aren't having fun for any of it. There's no hook, no puff of dopamine that accompanies your first tentative successes. You're staring at the death screen over and over, scratching your head over how you even died, what those abilities even are, why no one else takes damage and why nothing you've come to rely on has any effect.

You start googling and come back uncomprehending, yet with a build that you saw work. You feel dirty about copying someone else's build, but with no other clue you step back into the fray with the drastically erroneous belief that it might make even a minor impact on your performance. You start asking around, but despite being an English forum no one speaks the same language as you. You're presented with an impenetrable soup of alphabet acronyms and esoteric abbreviations, and now instead of researching PVP you're glacially translating people's posts with an unreliable glossary you found on-line.

This cycle does not seem to have an end. You either get off entirely, or you eternally ride the Pain Train back and forth between Confusion Town and Agony Ville, all the while being violently beaten by the conductors for having the sheer effing gall to present them, when asked, with your legitimately purchased ticket.

Vevvev · December 2021

BulletMagnetX wrote: »

It's the learning curve that does it. Not only is it steep, but you aren't having fun for any of it. There's no hook, no puff of dopamine that accompanies your first tentative successes. You're staring at the death screen over and over, scratching your head over how you even died, what those abilities even are, why no one else takes damage and why nothing you've come to rely on has any effect.

You start googling and come back uncomprehending, yet with a build that you saw work. You feel dirty about copying someone else's build, but with no other clue you step back into the fray with the drastically erroneous belief that it might make even a minor impact on your performance. You start asking around, but despite being an English forum no one speaks the same language as you. You're presented with an impenetrable soup of alphabet acronyms and esoteric abbreviations, and now instead of researching PVP you're glacially translating people's posts with an unreliable glossary you found on-line.

This cycle does not seem to have an end. You either get off entirely, or you eternally ride the Pain Train back and forth between Confusion Town and Agony Ville, all the while being violently beaten by the conductors for having the sheer effing gall to present them, when asked, with your legitimately purchased ticket.

I didn't want to, but I sadly have to agree with this post. PvP Is a brutal and painful learning experience, and it flies in the face of everything the game has taught you in the tutorial, it's PvE zones, and the non-DLC normal dungeons. "This game is easy, surely this'll be a blast!" Then they get brutally mauled to death by even low level characters with dedicated PvP builds.

Vaoh · December 2021

I think the PvP you see right now is exactly how it will stay. Dark Convergence is the newest addition and we can expect more sets like that to come.

etchedpixels · December 2021

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the PvP you see right now is exactly how it will stay. Dark Convergence is the newest addition and we can expect more sets like that to come.

Thankfully we have no-proc no-cp cyrodiil which is a much better newbie experience anyway. You no longer die because they have golded meta proc set of the week and 3000 CP, you die because they are better than you and that does give you a bit more time to learn, especially in bigger groups.