Limits on Endeavors makes them pretty boring

spartaxoxo · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

hafgood wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

[
ZOS makes $450 million a year mostly from ESO. I do not believe they will bankrupt themselves or Microsoft, or even lose profits.

People who gamble for crates will still do so. And they will still have an awful rate on apex and above rewards.

And I'm not asking for "free" stuff. I'm asking to be rewarded for playing the game. ZOS already does this. Other games do this. Why is this such a foreign concept to people.

You want more rewards for playing the game.

You do not want to pay for the rewards.

You want them by carrying out tasks.

By carrying out these tasks the rewards cost nothing.

Therefore you want stuff for free.

And a lot of people would stop buying crates if they knew they could get most of what they wanted for free.

This impacts the income of the game.

This means less money to be spent on the game.

It doesn't matter how much the game makes, Microsoft bought the studio to make money, they are not going to want to see those profits cut because they have increased the amount of free stuff they are giving out.

Same result, game no longer profitable, game closed

Even if we upped the endeavors 3x that would not give us everything in a crate. It would actually allow us to have more than 1 thing every couple of months.

My time is worth more than some shareholder's stock price.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

Maybe not payout less seals?

I promise you guys ZOS will not go bankrupt if everything isn't a microtransaction and gambling.

I promise you the game won't be ruined if some small endeavors aren't to your liking, as they'll be plenty of others.

I have played countless games with battle rewards for doing things.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

[
ZOS makes $450 million a year mostly from ESO. I do not believe they will bankrupt themselves or Microsoft, or even lose profits.

People who gamble for crates will still do so. And they will still have an awful rate on apex and above rewards.

And I'm not asking for "free" stuff. I'm asking to be rewarded for playing the game. ZOS already does this. Other games do this. Why is this such a foreign concept to people.

You want more rewards for playing the game.

You do not want to pay for the rewards.

You want them by carrying out tasks.

By carrying out these tasks the rewards cost nothing.

Therefore you want stuff for free.

And a lot of people would stop buying crates if they knew they could get most of what they wanted for free.

This impacts the income of the game.

This means less money to be spent on the game.

It doesn't matter how much the game makes, Microsoft bought the studio to make money, they are not going to want to see those profits cut because they have increased the amount of free stuff they are giving out.

Same result, game no longer profitable, game closed

Even if we upped the endeavors 3x that would not give us everything in a crate. It would actually allow us to have more than 1 thing every couple of months.

My time is worth more than some shareholder's stock price.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

Maybe not payout less seals?

I promise you guys ZOS will not go bankrupt if everything isn't a microtransaction and gambling.

I promise you the game won't be ruined if some small endeavors aren't to your liking, as they'll be plenty of others.

I have played countless games with battle rewards for doing things.

They will payout less seals. They'll give us our 30 max a day one way or another. Whether that's 5 per endeavors + 5 more for doing them all, or 10 each for doing 3 of them. The entire point of them structuring it this way was the choice between those 2 things.

And even if they gave us more seals, this basic structural choice wouldn't change. They could give you a choice of activities or they could split the max seals for the day up into smaller amounts, with an illusionary bonus for doing them all. I'd rather have choice.

VaranisArano · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

You are not everyone, okay?

Daily rewards like login and endeavors are not just "Oh, I get free stuff for doing something I would normally!"

That's like the new car smell. It doesn't last.

Daily tasks and rewards are an example of Skinner's Box type operant conditioning. "Do this, get a reward" with the idea of building a habit. The thing is, you want it to be a positive thing if you want players to have fun doing it on a daily basis.

It's also balanced by the flip side: fear of missing out. "Don't do this thing, you miss out." That's for when the new car smell wears off. If you miss too many days logging in, you might not get the Day 21 reward. So, remember to log in.

Just because you are not bothered by missing out does not make that true for everyone. As you well know, having been referencing events where we see just how upset the fear of missing out makes players who don't want to do PVP or group dungeons for that matter.

For many players, the "Don't do this thing and you miss out" is a significant negative factor.

And so if we're talking about making ESO fun, then it's actually very important to keep Endeavors a positive daily thing. The last thing we want is for every day to have one or more Endeavors that many players don't want to do and will have to miss out if they refuse to do them.

Right now, the PVP endeavors are positive for PVPers, and not a negative for PVEers. Under your suggestion, every player who dislikes PVP would face a nearly daily negative choice to either do content they dislike or else miss out. In the same way, PVPers would have to do more PVE content before they can queue up for their preferred PVP activities or else miss out. Players with limited time have to dedicate more time to doing endeavors before they can play as they like, or else miss out. Do you not see how that daily negative choice would sour many players on Endeavors?

In a very similar fashion, ZOS puts the nice reward for Daily Logins at Day 21. That keeps it positive. You've got 21 days to log in and you aren't unduly punished for not logging in every single day in a row. You've got options and that's a good thing for most players.

TLDR: Having options is what make Endeavors fun for players who can't or don't want to do them all.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

VaranisArano · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

[
ZOS makes $450 million a year mostly from ESO. I do not believe they will bankrupt themselves or Microsoft, or even lose profits.

People who gamble for crates will still do so. And they will still have an awful rate on apex and above rewards.

And I'm not asking for "free" stuff. I'm asking to be rewarded for playing the game. ZOS already does this. Other games do this. Why is this such a foreign concept to people.

You want more rewards for playing the game.

You do not want to pay for the rewards.

You want them by carrying out tasks.

By carrying out these tasks the rewards cost nothing.

Therefore you want stuff for free.

And a lot of people would stop buying crates if they knew they could get most of what they wanted for free.

This impacts the income of the game.

This means less money to be spent on the game.

It doesn't matter how much the game makes, Microsoft bought the studio to make money, they are not going to want to see those profits cut because they have increased the amount of free stuff they are giving out.

Same result, game no longer profitable, game closed

Even if we upped the endeavors 3x that would not give us everything in a crate. It would actually allow us to have more than 1 thing every couple of months.

My time is worth more than some shareholder's stock price.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

Maybe not payout less seals?

I promise you guys ZOS will not go bankrupt if everything isn't a microtransaction and gambling.

I promise you the game won't be ruined if some small endeavors aren't to your liking, as they'll be plenty of others.

I have played countless games with battle rewards for doing things.

The people you need to be talking to are ZOS shareholders and the Accounting Department.

As a player who's been watching how ZOS and other companies respond to increasing focus on loot box monetization, everything you talk about would be a stunning reversal of what ZOS has done with the Endeavors system to date.

A welcome reversal, to be sure. But nonetheless, a reversal.

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

Kessra · November 2021

Endeavors and login rewards already feel like a second job honestly, even though they are quickly done. At least to me I often feel that I lack behind if not logging in and collecting the reward, especially as the interesting stuff to me is always at the end of the month. This IMO lets you play the game for the wrong reasons. You play to not miss out on those "benefits" but not because you enjoy certain parts of the game. This is like the carrot on a stick constantly hanging in front of us to give us incentives to play instead of providing content worth playing. And we are upset when the rewards are getting worse and worse. Just compare the early days of login rewards where you got lots and lots AP/Telvar stones or gold and now it doesn't feel that special anymore.

The Guild Wars 2 login-rewards, which were implemented in that game long before ESO did this, continue from the day you last log in. Therefore you don't miss out on that stuff and continue with your timeline instead of the fixed day one. This IMO has a totally different psychological meaning. It is a thank you for logging in a certain amount of times, but does not feel like the grind till you get to a good reward. I.e. in ESO when a new month start, you start at day 1 of that month while in GW2 you continue from where you last loged in. If you missed a single day of logging in to your ESO account and collect the reward you miss out on the last day of that month (or more if you didn't log in for longer). In GW2 though you continue from where you left the game.

Endeavors though feel like the daily quests in Guild Wars 2 where you can choose which of the given ones you want to do. While the core incentive here probably is to let players experience all parts of the game, I guess for the most part PvE oriented players will only do the PvE ones while PvP orinted players have to do some PvE related things as there are usually only 1-2 PvP related things listed per day/week. Despite most of them are done rather quickly, if you don't do them, there is always that feeling that you should have done those if you i.e. wanted to get a certain costume, mount, house, ... in a reasonable amount of time. What if ZOS at some point rotates items in that list and all of a sudden you are now short on a couple of coins to buy the item you saved up for almost a year.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

[
ZOS makes $450 million a year mostly from ESO. I do not believe they will bankrupt themselves or Microsoft, or even lose profits.

People who gamble for crates will still do so. And they will still have an awful rate on apex and above rewards.

And I'm not asking for "free" stuff. I'm asking to be rewarded for playing the game. ZOS already does this. Other games do this. Why is this such a foreign concept to people.

You want more rewards for playing the game.

You do not want to pay for the rewards.

You want them by carrying out tasks.

By carrying out these tasks the rewards cost nothing.

Therefore you want stuff for free.

And a lot of people would stop buying crates if they knew they could get most of what they wanted for free.

This impacts the income of the game.

This means less money to be spent on the game.

It doesn't matter how much the game makes, Microsoft bought the studio to make money, they are not going to want to see those profits cut because they have increased the amount of free stuff they are giving out.

Same result, game no longer profitable, game closed

Even if we upped the endeavors 3x that would not give us everything in a crate. It would actually allow us to have more than 1 thing every couple of months.

My time is worth more than some shareholder's stock price.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like that they give us multiple options and we choose which activities we do. As you already mentioned, if we could do all of them, they would just adjust the prices up anyway so you wouldn't progress any faster than you do currently. You would just have to do more for the same outcome.

But no need to worry. If you really want to do that you can. Simply do the other endeavors anyway. You won't get any extra rewards, but since you already wanted the cost to adjust up for more effort, this won't change. You get to put in the extra effort you want and everyone else can continue on as normal. Everybody wins!

So you're saying having the option to do all the endeavors would make the game less fun?

Actually yes.

Endeavors are a daily task, more akin to doing chores than playing the game in many cases.

Did your parents ever hand you a list of five chores?

Or did they ever hand you a list if five chores, and say "Pick three that you want to do"?

Now, obviously very few people enjoy doing chores. But it's far more enjoyable to pick and choose the chores you want to do than it is to be handed a list and told "Do all of them."

So yes, your suggestion would make Seals of Endeavor less fun for many players. It would also make the game less fun, by imposing a clear cost when players either choose to avoid certain activities or do not have the time to do all five.

If I don't have time to do all my endeavors I simply don't. The game doesn't become less fun because of it. I also craft 7 writs on all my characters every day. If I don't complete them all, the game is not less enjoyable. I don't feel the need to do them, but if I am online, I will.

Endeavors provide an incentive to do other things than what we log on for each day. And yet, most people never go beyond the 3 easiest, because there's 0 reward.

I don't see how paying out less seals for the same effort could be more fun

Maybe not payout less seals?

I promise you guys ZOS will not go bankrupt if everything isn't a microtransaction and gambling.

I promise you the game won't be ruined if some small endeavors aren't to your liking, as they'll be plenty of others.

I have played countless games with battle rewards for doing things.

The people you need to be talking to are ZOS shareholders and the Accounting Department.

As a player who's been watching how ZOS and other companies respond to increasing focus on loot box monetization, everything you talk about would be a stunning reversal of what ZOS has done with the Endeavors system to date.

A welcome reversal, to be sure. But nonetheless, a reversal.

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

I don't see a lot of things happening but if we want the game to move in a positive direction it always helps to let our voices be heard.

And I guess I am pretty weird in that I see most parts of the game as mostly positive experiences so having more incentive to do those is always a bonus in my book.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

VaranisArano · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

Agreed, though I think that the original thought is that the seals per task would remain the same.

I.e. if the daily tasks are 15 seals + 1000 gold, with a current value of 45 seals + 3000 gold for all three tasks

Hope: we get 75 seals + 5000 gold for all five tasks

My suspicion: we get 45 seals +3000 gold for all five tasks.

I am a cynical person, though, so perhaps I am mistaken.

redspecter23 · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

Agreed, though I think that the original thought is that the seals per task would remain the same.

I.e. if the daily tasks are 15 seals + 1000 gold, with a current value of 45 seals + 3000 gold for all three tasks

Hope: we get 75 seals + 5000 gold for all five tasks

My suspicion: we get 45 seals +3000 gold for all five tasks.

I am a cynical person, though, so perhaps I am mistaken.

Sure. But also alternatively if they want 75 seals they can just up the seal amount on the current structure. Neither structure necessitates more or less seals, and the seal amounts they chose is based on marketing needs not structure.

So they are always just gonna be whatever amount keeps us doing endeavors but doesn't threaten sales.

driosketch · November 2021

The choice of which 3 of 5 to complete is probably to most interesting part of endeavors. I would even favor increasing the options while keeping the limit at 3 rather than allowing all of them to remain active. Not every task is interesting to everyone, and some would be downright repulsed trying to get a town quest where gankers camped in the building the quest giver was in.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

redspecter23 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

Its just strange that everyone's okay with endeavors being lowered each month but when I try to offer a solution that gives more, its a symphony of people not wanting to put in the effort that might actually make the game more interesting.

Like obviously it wont be the most lucrative suggestion for ZOS but it'd make logging in each week actually interesting.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

redspecter23 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

Its just strange that everyone's okay with endeavors being lowered each month but when I try to offer a solution that gives more, its a symphony of people not wanting to put in the effort that might actually make the game more interesting.

Like obviously it wont be the most lucrative suggestion for ZOS but it'd make logging in each week actually interesting.

It wouldn't make the game more interesting. It would make it less interesting. ZOS purposefully puts in a wide variety of tasks so that people with all different types of playstyles can always choose something. You want to make people do things they don't want to do or miss out on stuff they are currently getting instead of just simply upping the current seal amount.

Why would someone want to do stuff they don't like each day or miss out on stuff as their options versus getting to pick stuff like they doing anyway?

redspecter23 · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

redspecter23 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

Its just strange that everyone's okay with endeavors being lowered each month but when I try to offer a solution that gives more, its a symphony of people not wanting to put in the effort that might actually make the game more interesting.

Like obviously it wont be the most lucrative suggestion for ZOS but it'd make logging in each week actually interesting.

It wouldn't make the game more interesting. It would make it less interesting. ZOS purposefully puts in a wide variety of tasks so that people with all different types of playstyles can always choose something. You want to make people do things they don't want to do or miss out on stuff they are currently getting instead of just simply upping the current seal amount.

Why would someone want to do stuff they don't like each day or miss out on stuff as their options versus getting to pick stuff like they doing anyway?

That's pretty much exactly how I feel as well.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

redspecter23 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

Its just strange that everyone's okay with endeavors being lowered each month but when I try to offer a solution that gives more, its a symphony of people not wanting to put in the effort that might actually make the game more interesting.

Like obviously it wont be the most lucrative suggestion for ZOS but it'd make logging in each week actually interesting.

It wouldn't make the game more interesting. It would make it less interesting. ZOS purposefully puts in a wide variety of tasks so that people with all different types of playstyles can always choose something. You want to make people do things they don't want to do or miss out on stuff they are currently getting instead of just simply upping the current seal amount.

Why would someone want to do stuff they don't like each day or miss out on stuff as their options versus getting to pick stuff like they doing anyway?

That's pretty much exactly how I feel as well.

Because simply upping the current seal amount is basically "asking for free stuff" and I was already admonished for that.

I'd really rather have them tie these things to effort and give more rewards for it but alas everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Which brings me back to my first point. Boring. Perhaps thats ok for you.

VaranisArano · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Maybe not payout less seals"

I mean, no offense, but they've already been paying out less seals on a weekly basis than they did at launch. I just don't see that happening.

It's also irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many seals it pays out, having it divisible by 5 instead of 3 would result in less payout per task.

They could be willing to give out 100 seals per day and 33.33 seals would be more seals than 25.

The difference between the two tasks is one introduces a reward/punishment system for willingness to play all the activities the game has to offer, and the other gives players choices.

I'd rather have choice.

redspecter23 wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I don't believe doing more endeavors would make the game worse. Most of them are incredibly easy. None of them are required to enjoy the game.

It would fix most people's complaints with the endeavors cheapness by tying it to effort instead of time. People can still choose not to do them, and of course the gambling could be for people who don't want to put in the effort.

I don't see how it would take away choice if the reward values stayed the same. I don't see how it would bankrupt ZOS to let a few more items out of the crates besides an apex every 6 months or radiant every year. Might even get more people playing.

I do see why they are like they are, and I don't agree with the cash grab. Most of us pay a monthly fee. Most of us get the expansions every year. The whales will still be whales.

You are correct in that you don't see many of the objections to your proposal. While you don't have to agree with others, it is important to at least accept that others do see things differently. You're not likely to change the minds of those that are disagreeing in this thread. Your points are very clear. They just aren't attractive to me. I can't speak for others.

The idea that they can just up the rewards or give away more of this or that is something you'd have to take up with ZOS. At the end of the day, people will always accept more. Why get $5 when you could get $10 or $50 or $5000? ZOS has decided on their reward structure for this system. Realistically, telling them they won't go bankrupt by upping the rewards isn't going to change their minds. You're basically telling them they will make less money. That's not really a good way to convince a company to do a thing.

Its just strange that everyone's okay with endeavors being lowered each month but when I try to offer a solution that gives more, its a symphony of people not wanting to put in the effort that might actually make the game more interesting.

Like obviously it wont be the most lucrative suggestion for ZOS but it'd make logging in each week actually interesting.

It's not that strange.

Very few people are cheerleading ZOS for lowering seals, but we understand that it's profitable for them to do so. They have not shown any interest in solutions that mean giving players more seals. That it would be less lucrative for ZOS is a strong counterargument against this happening the way you hope. (In fact, if you review the threads where this was discussed, you'll see that most people would like the seal amounts to go back up without extra tasks.)

In addition, your solution has significant downsides for players, as we've described. The "symphony" is people chiming in to say that your suggestion would not make the game more interesting for them. Quite the opposite.

Worse, when we combine those two factors, we arrive at the very likely scenario in which ZOS removes player choice and does not change the total number of seals, leaving us in a worse situation overall doing more tasks for less reward per task. Meanwhile, ZOS preserves their profits.

And of course, nothing's stopping you from keeping yourself interested by doing all 5 tasks, if you like.

AcadianPaladin · November 2021

I like endeavors and think the devs did a good job of creating a system that is reasonably fun, easy, flexible and not a pain in the neck at all. I normally enjoy doing 3 endeavors and only recall getting 2 instead of 3 a couple times because some endeavors are not gonna happen (kill innocents, blade of who (lol), escape from guards, arenas, trials, battlegrounds, kill another player) and a couple are simply not enjoyable so I pass on them (pve or repair stuff in Cyrodiil). They seem to provide a good balance of simply doing things I'd do anyway and letting me pass on things that cause my elf to wrinkle her nose.

Tandor · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I'm just trying to make the game more exciting for those who play it, and while I get the cynicism of why and how, I still choose to see a better way and will be vocal about it.

If the question was how to make the game more exciting, I'd be very surprised if Endeavours were the answer.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

Tandor wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

I'm just trying to make the game more exciting for those who play it, and while I get the cynicism of why and how, I still choose to see a better way and will be vocal about it.

If the question was how to make the game more exciting, I'd be very surprised if Endeavours were the answer.

Exciting for some is frustrating for others, so I can see why it will never happen. People don't like achievements either I guess.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Yes because unlike a dungeon or something, this is a DAILY chore. I don't want negativity introduced into every play session. Dailies are supposed to be quick and easy tasks for minor rewards.

Who wants to miss stuff or be forced into activities they don't like every single day for the rest of the game's lifespan? How would that enhance enjoyment?

The stuff that takes effort and dedication should be reserved for stuff you do when you feel like doing it, or limited time events. Not as an annoying chore you do everytime you login from now until the server shutsdown or miss out .

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Yes because unlike a dungeon or something, this is a DAILY chore. I don't want negativity introduced into every play session. Dailies are supposed to be quick and easy tasks for minor rewards.

Offering a reward is not the same as forcing you to do the task.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Yes because unlike a dungeon or something, this is a DAILY chore. I don't want negativity introduced into every play session. Dailies are supposed to be quick and easy tasks for minor rewards.

Offering a reward is not the same as forcing you to do the task.

Good thing that's not what I said then! Might want to reread.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Who wants to miss stuff or be forced into activities they don't like every single day for the rest of the game's lifespan?

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Yes because unlike a dungeon or something, this is a DAILY chore. I don't want negativity introduced into every play session. Dailies are supposed to be quick and easy tasks for minor rewards.

Offering a reward is not the same as forcing you to do the task.

Good thing that's not what I said then! Might want to reread.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Who wants to miss stuff or be forced into activities they don't like every single day for the rest of the game's lifespan?

I'm sorry not being able to do everything every would introduce negativity for you. I don't see anything listed in the last year that would require me to put in a ton of effort or time.

There would be more rewards the next day, if you did not get all of them this day.

VaranisArano · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

everyone wants their login rewards instead so they don't have any negative consequences in their game.

Yes because unlike a dungeon or something, this is a DAILY chore. I don't want negativity introduced into every play session. Dailies are supposed to be quick and easy tasks for minor rewards.

Offering a reward is not the same as forcing you to do the task.

Putting rewards behind certain tasks is indeed forcing us to do that task if we want the reward. For the players who feel that way, it's not fun. You may not feel that way, but we both know lots of players do - see complaints about being forced to do PVP during MYM.

To go back to an earlier anology, it's the difference between being handed a list of 5 chores and asked to pick 3 versus just being given a list of 5 chores.

It's still two more tasks which I may or may not want to do. And if I don't, I'll miss out on the available reward. Right now, I feel better about the 3 chores I chose to do because I could skip what I don't want to do, and I'm not missing any rewards.

You may want to look at the psychology of rewards at some point. There's a significant psychological difference between:

Case 1: I am given 5 choices and told to pick any 3 to get a total of 60 Seals. I choOse the 3 that best fit how I want to play today, and get my 60 seals.

Case 2: I am given 5 tasks, each worth 20 seals. I only have the time, ability, or desire to achieve 3 of them, and so I only get 60 seals. I miss out on the remaining 40.

Case 1 is largely positive. We choose how best to achieve our goal and we make it.

Case 2 is a mixed bag. We got the exact same reward and same amount of effort as Case 1, but now we are missing out. We could have gotten 100 seals. It's much harder to be satisfied with our mere 60 seals. There is now a negative cost associated with Endeavors as well as a positive feeling.

Incidentally, Case 2 might apply to players who can only do 1 or 2 Endeavors currently. However, you'll note that the current system is far more forgiving, in that you only need to do 3 tasks. Raising it to all five increases the time, ability, and desire requirements to the point that more players would experience that negative cost.

As a Daily experience for players, it's important for ZOS to keep Endeavors positive. It's bad for player satisfaction to create Case 2 for many players on a regular basis. That lead to burnout.

Monte_Cristo · November 2021

No one's mentioned yet that often 2 of the 5 endeavors require one of the DLC/chapters. People without the required expansion might not be happy the can't get all 5 rewards, where as now 3 of the 5 are always base game. So those without some/all expansions still can get all the available rewards.

PizzaCat82 · November 2021

Well do you think 5 is too many? Or do you just want a choice. I mean we can make it 5/10 I guess. Same end result, pretty much same choice, and now we have the introduction of more seals each day, or week, or even introducing monthly or yearly ones.

DaveMoeDee · November 2021

The max is always an arbitrary number. It makes sense to give more options than the cap so that people can just do it for the activities that appeal to them. If there are 5 options and the cap is 3, moving the cap to 5 would mean they increase options to 8 so people retain a choice.

Stop thinking about the ones you can't do. They want to have that difference so people can pick what they like.

Tandor · November 2021

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Well do you think 5 is too many? Or do you just want a choice. I mean we can make it 5/10 I guess. Same end result, pretty much same choice, and now we have the introduction of more seals each day, or week, or even introducing monthly or yearly ones.

The Endeavours are already an unnecessary addition to the daily login rewards from some, I suspect many, players' perspective. They were only introduced to allow ZOS to get round the increasing threat of legal problems with lockboxes, by enabling them to say that anything in the Crown Crates can be obtained by playing the game. Adding even more Endeavours isn't going to resolve anything, and would simply result in either a reduction in the number of seals provided per Endeavour or else an increase in the number of seals required to obtain any worthwhile rewards.