spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Might as well remove Tel Var then.

It's the way AP works and Cyrodiil has a healthier pop. You can prevent someone from earning AP but not take the AP they already managed to get. The same being true of Tel-Var would lead it to being more casual friendly drawing in a larger crowd. I do think it would require making some of the Tel-Var items more expensive though.

Like the number one sticking point that so many of those casual pvp players cite about why they don't do IC but will do Cyro or BGs sometimes is the Tel-Var issue. I don't think it's worth killing the entire zone's population so much of the year just to have this mechanic. It has taken away from pvp more than it has given.

People need to have incentive to go in there and then they will get dragged into fights.

New Districts that are ultra pvp heavy will bring in some of the players that are more dedicated to PVP but hate all the loading screens.

And a bit easier time getting stuff done there will bring in casuals.

Probably won't ever get as big as Cyro but at least it would be better than the largely dead zones you have whenever there is no event.

I'll second the "might as well remove Tel Var." The whole point of the currency is that its risk-reward. Remove the risk and...do we really need another "gold"-type currency farmed from NPCs?

It's not removing the risk. It's still pvp currency. Nobody says AP is risk free. It's reducing it.

I don't get why the original intentions mattered when they failed. I guess I never will.

There are large masses of people that explicitly state "I don't do IC because of Tel-Var" masses. It is by and far the number one cited reason for casual pvpers to not do it. It's not even close. Probably a lot gave up on it at this point but people basically begged zos to let them enjoy IC by changing this mechanic back in the day. And some people including zos said "okay then leave if you don't like it." And now you have a dead zone.

Well, you get what you wish for I guess. Everyone left.

So, if Tel Var loss where removed, in what way would it be different from key fragments?

And would you maintain the modifiers that exist now?

maxjapank wrote: »

If you want more players in IC, then you have to take away the Tel-Var loss. I know some pvp’rs want to claim this risk vs. reward thing. But it’s the number 1 reason no one is there. I pvp in Cyrodill everyday. I even do bgs sometimes. But I won’t set foot in IC. If I have to continually fight mobs to earn Tel-Var and then end up being ganked or overrun by a zerg, then it’s not worth it to me to go in there.

I do respect your desire to keep it as is. But this insistence on “leave it alone” “it’s the only pvp with true risk /reward” has gotten IC nowhere. It’s a ghost town. And maybe that’s the way some pvp’rs want to keep it. Because it is a good way to earn gold buy selling herbs and Hakeijo. No competition means easier farming for some.

If Tel Var was the only thing that dropped in IC, I would see your point, but it isn't.

AlnilamE wrote: »

So, if Tel Var loss where removed, in what way would it be different from key fragments?

And would you maintain the modifiers that exist now?

Key Fragments take up inventory space and are just used to unlock particular sets. Tel-Var are a full currency and with merchants who's wares can be modified at any time.

I do think the modifiers and prices would need to be adjusted to account for the reduced risk.

They are the main reason to go into IC over other PvP modes. So if people hate trying to get them so much that they'd rather go PvP somewhere else, there is almost zero other reason for them to enter IC. And this is reflected in the IC population.

Plenty of people who don't mind PvP ignore IC because the only reason for them to go is too aggravating and unrewarding to bother.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

So, if Tel Var loss where removed, in what way would it be different from key fragments?

And would you maintain the modifiers that exist now?

Key Fragments take up inventory space and are just used to unlock particular sets. Tel-Var are a full currency and with merchants who's wares can be modified at any time.

I do think the modifiers and prices would need to be adjusted to account for the reduced risk.

They are the main reason to go into IC over other PvP modes. So if people hate trying to get them so much that they'd rather go PvP somewhere else, there is almost zero other reason for them to enter IC. And this is reflected in the IC population.

Plenty of people who don't mind PvP ignore IC because the only reason for them to go is too aggravating and unrewarding to bother.

OK, but what if you just eliminate Tel Var and make the merchants sell things for fragments instead? Because the result would be the same. If you are not risking loss of tel var, then both are just a currency that you can earn in IC only and are redundant.

And there would be no reason to have a multiplier because having more tel var no longer means a higher risk of loss, therefore there is no point in having a higher reward.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Y'all talk like the Tel-var risk-reward is something that should stay, but keep forgetting that people can just go to cyrodiil after they've farmed their tel-vars.
Back in the day, you had to enter IC through cyrodiil's sewer entrances, and the only way to get back to cyrodiil was leaving IC through the sewer entrance. Now you can teleport to cyrodiil.

So if you wanna keep discussing the risk-reward mechanics, fine, be my guest, but the truth is that there is no more risk-reward mechanics. You no longer need a recall stone, you just need to sneak and teleport.

You're all trying to defend a non-existing mechanic, so why not just let players keep their tel-vars, or at the very least, have a smaller percentage loss?

drsalvation wrote: »

Y'all talk like the Tel-var risk-reward is something that should stay, but keep forgetting that people can just go to cyrodiil after they've farmed their tel-vars.
Back in the day, you had to enter IC through cyrodiil's sewer entrances, and the only way to get back to cyrodiil was leaving IC through the sewer entrance. Now you can teleport to cyrodiil.

So if you wanna keep discussing the risk-reward mechanics, fine, be my guest, but the truth is that there is no more risk-reward mechanics. You no longer need a recall stone, you just need to sneak and teleport.

You're all trying to defend a non-existing mechanic, so why not just let players keep their tel-vars, or at the very least, have a smaller percentage loss?

I mean, clearly the ability to queue for Cyrodiil does not actually address the problems of the people asking for Tel Var loss to be removed, since they still want the loss removed.

Generally, the complaint is more along the lines of "I lose the Tel Var I farmed when an enemy players finds and kills me." That's still a risk whether you can queue for Cyrodiil or not. Instead, what they are asking for is "I don't want to lose any of the Tel Var I farmed when an enemy player finds and kills me."

"So why not eliminate Key Frags then and let Tel-Var open everything? It really doesn't matter what the currency is called as long as the mobs continue to drop a farmable currency that people can exchange for unique stuff at the merchants, as this is the primary incentive of the zone."

If there is no risk then mobs should drop gold. Just like every other PvE mob.

maxjapank wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

The whole "zone is dead" is not really true either. If that was the case, no one would be complaining about telvar loss as there would be no one to lose it too. Players most often complain about zergs & nightblades... so... those guys are playing there! There are always players in IC, just not the big groups that you only get in events.

The zone is dead. And the reason that most won't go is Tel Var loss. Remove the Tel-Var loss. Let players farm and make gold, and I bet you will get more people in there. We've been beating this dead horse for years now.

No, the reason why I don't spend more time in IC is that, unless I get a guildie to bounce the quests to me, I have to go through 11 load screens to get ready to go out and do them. If I have all 6 quests, I can move around districts and if there are too many enemy players in one district, I can go elsewhere and come back when they moved.

Now, if there was no tel var (or tel var loss), then people who don't like PvP would still not want to come, because as enemy players, they would still be a source of AP for gankers, just like they are if they are doing PvE in Cyrodiil, but they would have a higher likelihood of finding enemy players in IC than in delves in Cyrodiil.

ealdwin wrote: »

A few ideas:

1. Adjust Tel-Var loss/gain mechanics - When you kill a player, you can earn up to 50% of what your opponent has, but no more than 100% of what you have.

So, if you have 10 Tel Var and the opponent has 1000 Tel-Var, you can only earn 10, and they only lose 10.
If you have 1000 Tel-Var and the opponent has 1000 Tel-Var, you earn 500, and they lose 500.
If you have 1000 Tel-Var and the opponent has 10 Tel-Var, you earn 5, and they lose 5.

In other words, if you want to reap significant Tel-Var loads from other players, you have to be prepared to lose significant loads.
(Very similar ideas have been floating around for a while now. I agree with them, and above is how I'd implement it.)

And if they get killed by a group, do they lose the equivalent of the total Tel Var the group is carrying?

Also, talking about groups, a couple of time when my PvE guild was in IC, a ganker tried to kill us, and sometimes we managed to kill them instead, and we got rewarded with a good chunk of Tel Var for thwarting their plans. Do you want to take this away from people? Having a nice reward for fending off an attack?

2. Add more that can be purchased from Tel-Var vendors IE. make the farming and collection of Tel-Var more appealing so more people are drawn to the IC. A few ideas of stuff to sell:

- Jewelry platings
- Spell Power/Weapon Power potions
- Coffers with random crafting motifs

Like Hakeijo don't make enough gold?

Edit: Sorry, messed up the quotes.

AlnilamE wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

The whole "zone is dead" is not really true either. If that was the case, no one would be complaining about telvar loss as there would be no one to lose it too. Players most often complain about zergs & nightblades... so... those guys are playing there! There are always players in IC, just not the big groups that you only get in events.

The zone is dead. And the reason that most won't go is Tel Var loss. Remove the Tel-Var loss. Let players farm and make gold, and I bet you will get more people in there. We've been beating this dead horse for years now.

No, the reason why I don't spend more time in IC is that, unless I get a guildie to bounce the quests to me, I have to go through 11 load screens to get ready to go out and do them. If I have all 6 quests, I can move around districts and if there are too many enemy players in one district, I can go elsewhere and come back when they moved.

Now, if there was no tel var (or tel var loss), then people who don't like PvP would still not want to come, because as enemy players, they would still be a source of AP for gankers, just like they are if they are doing PvE in Cyrodiil, but they would have a higher likelihood of finding enemy players in IC than in delves in Cyrodiil.

ealdwin wrote: »

A few ideas:

1. Adjust Tel-Var loss/gain mechanics - When you kill a player, you can earn up to 50% of what your opponent has, but no more than 100% of what you have.

So, if you have 10 Tel Var and the opponent has 1000 Tel-Var, you can only earn 10, and they only lose 10.
If you have 1000 Tel-Var and the opponent has 1000 Tel-Var, you earn 500, and they lose 500.
If you have 1000 Tel-Var and the opponent has 10 Tel-Var, you earn 5, and they lose 5.

In other words, if you want to reap significant Tel-Var loads from other players, you have to be prepared to lose significant loads.
(Very similar ideas have been floating around for a while now. I agree with them, and above is how I'd implement it.)

And if they get killed by a group, do they lose the equivalent of the total Tel Var the group is carrying?

Also, talking about groups, a couple of time when my PvE guild was in IC, a ganker tried to kill us, and sometimes we managed to kill them instead, and we got rewarded with a good chunk of Tel Var for thwarting their plans. Do you want to take this away from people? Having a nice reward for fending off an attack?

2. Add more that can be purchased from Tel-Var vendors IE. make the farming and collection of Tel-Var more appealing so more people are drawn to the IC. A few ideas of stuff to sell:

- Jewelry platings
- Spell Power/Weapon Power potions
- Coffers with random crafting motifs

Like Hakeijo don't make enough gold?

Honestly, the suggestion wasn't aimed at those who farm Tel-Var to buy Hakeijo to then sell on the market; not to concerned with them. The people who make money that way already go to IC.

My suggestion was aimed at creating incentives for others to come to IC and farm Tel-Var that would be worth their time. Offering stuff such as Jewelry Platings through Tel-Var vendors would create an alternative source for those materials that some might legitimately consider when trying to obtain those materials.

It's no secret that upgrading Jewelry is a costly venture. I'd say it's too expensive, and that such materials are rarer than they need to or should be. If it were possible to obtain Jewelry Plating mats through IC, how many might actually consider that avenue? I would.

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

Whats this? Another "give pve versions of pvp zones" thread? This will surely go well!

Actually no. It is a make PvP fun again thread.

And responding to another post, taking Telvar is a must. Imperial City and the Sewers are the only zones where dying has any kind of consequence (other than long rid back I guess) and that unique aspect needs to stay.

Maybe say you can't take more Telvar than what you have with you and the rest go to the abyss. So if you have 100 and pop someone with 300 you get 100 and 50 are removed from the game. We still need that penalty of losing half. Sure there might be a few griefers that run around killing and being happy they cost you half your stones but at least this way they don't profit from the griefing if they risk nothing.

Why do we need it? Why is it more important than a healthy population? It's the most cited reason by a country mile that I have seen to why people don't do IC (outside of people who won't enter pvp period, but they are a lost cause).

Maybe we don't need Telvar. Just make the things we now purchase with Telvar be available for AP. Without the risk of loss there is zero reason for Telvar to exist. Players not going to Imperial City because of Telvar would find another reason not to go if it were changed.

Tel-Var exists to get to people to go to Imperial City, so no, Tel-Var serves a purpose outside of being loseable. And that purpose is far more important to the vast majority of players than it being loseable. Your position amounts if you're gonna reduce risk so that people draw people into IC who want this item, then you should delete this item from the game so they still aren't drawn in. And that makes zero sense.

Tel-Var do NOT exist just to be lost.
Tel-Var also exists to get people to play IC as it is the unique reward of the zone that cannot be obtained reliably elsewhere.

So you have a tiny minority that want their zone dead so they can take others Tel-Var.

And you got a bunch of people who explicitly state that they WOULD go to IC if Tel-Var would not be loseable.

You tell people who don't like it to leave. They have. IC is dead. Even people who still like it basically just play it as a PVE zone with occasional PvP that a lot of them just exit rather than do unless they are pretty confident they win because they are strongly incentived to avoid PVP in the PVP zone and to avoid risk.

And please stop strawmanning as remove risk rather than reduce it. You would still be in a PVP zone, that's risk. It would be comparable to AP not Coin.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

Whats this? Another "give pve versions of pvp zones" thread? This will surely go well!

Actually no. It is a make PvP fun again thread.

And responding to another post, taking Telvar is a must. Imperial City and the Sewers are the only zones where dying has any kind of consequence (other than long rid back I guess) and that unique aspect needs to stay.

Maybe say you can't take more Telvar than what you have with you and the rest go to the abyss. So if you have 100 and pop someone with 300 you get 100 and 50 are removed from the game. We still need that penalty of losing half. Sure there might be a few griefers that run around killing and being happy they cost you half your stones but at least this way they don't profit from the griefing if they risk nothing.

Why do we need it? Why is it more important than a healthy population? It's the most cited reason by a country mile that I have seen to why people don't do IC (outside of people who won't enter pvp period, but they are a lost cause).

Maybe we don't need Telvar. Just make the things we now purchase with Telvar be available for AP. Without the risk of loss there is zero reason for Telvar to exist. Players not going to Imperial City because of Telvar would find another reason not to go if it were changed.

Tel-Var exists to get to people to go to Imperial City, so no, Tel-Var serves a purpose outside of being loseable. And that purpose is far more important to the vast majority of players than it being loseable. Your position amounts if you're gonna reduce risk so that people draw people into IC who want this item, then you should delete this item from the game so they still aren't drawn in. And that makes zero sense.

Tel-Var do NOT exist just to be lost.
Tel-Var also exists to get people to play IC as it is the unique reward of the zone that cannot be obtained reliably elsewhere.

So you have a tiny minority that want their zone dead so they can take others Tel-Var.

And you got a bunch of people who explicitly state that they WOULD go to IC if Tel-Var would not be loseable.

You tell people who don't like it to leave. They have. IC is dead. Even people who still like it basically just play it as a PVE zone with occasional PvP that a lot of them just exit rather than do unless they are pretty confident they win because they are strongly incentived to avoid PVP in the PVP zone and to avoid risk.

And please stop strawmanning as remove risk rather than reduce it. You would still be in a PVP zone, that's risk. It would be comparable to AP not Coin.

We will simply have to disagree. I remember when there was huge battles in Imperial City. Back then losing to a player cost 80% of your Telvar. What changed? The flags. Now if you die in Imperial City and your faction doesn't own that piece of the pie you have two loading screens to get back to a fight. Chances are by that time the fight has been decided.

I've never told people if you do not like it leave. Not ever not for any content in any game. It has never happened.

And no it really isn't risk outside of Imperial City. Being killed has no consequence other than needing to spawn. You cost someone a sould gem if the rez you. Not a lot of risk there. Your armor doesn't even deteriorate. Telvar brings a risk. When the sewers were still kind of vibrant it was fun taking out 10,000 stones and going up to Imperial City then dropping down into the sewers as far from home base as possible and try to get home with all your stones. There was risk involved that made it exciting.
Imperial City is a unique zone and needs to stay that way. There have been suggestions made in this thread and others that I believe would bring some of that population back. We could make Imperial City fun again without wrecking the Telvar dynamic that is a part of that fun.
That Imperial City was once very popular even when there was a chance of losing much more than now tells you the problem isn't Telvar. Something else has made people decide to play elsewhere. Personally I think part of it is some layers first experience is the event and that is the worst time to go. That is when you get the players who can't PvP worth a darn sitting on quest objectives to take out a years worth of frustration in their own failures in PvP. After that experience they think Imperial City is like that all the time and they never return.

If there is nothing unique about Telvar (chance of losing it) then really there is no need for it to exist. We would have a PvE currency and a PvP currency. What else would we need?

kargen27 wrote: »

If there is nothing unique about Telvar (chance of losing it) then really there is no need for it to exist. We would have a PvE currency and a PvP currency. What else would we need?

IC being the only way to reliably get it is also a unique attribute. And the purpose it serves is to get people to join IC. Since the point of the change is to get people to come into IC, deleting it serves the literal opposite purpose.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

Whats this? Another "give pve versions of pvp zones" thread? This will surely go well!

Actually no. It is a make PvP fun again thread.

And responding to another post, taking Telvar is a must. Imperial City and the Sewers are the only zones where dying has any kind of consequence (other than long rid back I guess) and that unique aspect needs to stay.

Maybe say you can't take more Telvar than what you have with you and the rest go to the abyss. So if you have 100 and pop someone with 300 you get 100 and 50 are removed from the game. We still need that penalty of losing half. Sure there might be a few griefers that run around killing and being happy they cost you half your stones but at least this way they don't profit from the griefing if they risk nothing.

Why do we need it? Why is it more important than a healthy population? It's the most cited reason by a country mile that I have seen to why people don't do IC (outside of people who won't enter pvp period, but they are a lost cause).

Maybe we don't need Telvar. Just make the things we now purchase with Telvar be available for AP. Without the risk of loss there is zero reason for Telvar to exist. Players not going to Imperial City because of Telvar would find another reason not to go if it were changed.

And please stop strawmanning as remove risk rather than reduce it. You would still be in a PVP zone, that's risk. It would be comparable to AP not Coin.

It's not a strawman to talk about removing the risk of losing Tel Var if you die to a player or NPC. That's actually quite distinct from the risk of PVP happening in a PVP zone.

As an example of this distinction, allow me to quote ZOS from their Tel Var Guide: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/guides/imperialcitytelvar

"For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box... You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!"

Edited to add, later on in the article, the Guide states: "The Tel Var Stones system adds another layer of excitement and risk to the engaging fights against monsters and enemy-alliance players in the Imperial City. Will you play it safe and deposit every 50, saving up for the items you want? Or will you risk it all to max out your gains modifier for a massive boost? Both are viable approaches!"

Clearly ZOS understands that Imperial City is a PVE/PVP zone with the risk of PVP. So they are clearly referring to a different sort of avoiding any risk here: the risk of losing Tel Var if you die to an NPC or player before you can deposit your stones.

You want to remove the later type of risk - the same risk that ZOS is talking about in their Guide - the risk of losing Tel Var when you die to an NPC or a player. You'd be removing the one aspect that makes Tel Var unique from key fragments or AP or Gold: the risk that you lose some of it if you die to NPCs or players.

Please don't conflate removing the risk of losing Tel Var from dying to NPCs/players with the whole argument over removing the risk of PVP entirely. Two different types of risk, as ZOS makes clear.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Please don't conflate removing the risk of losing Tel Var from dying to NPCs/players with the whole argument over removing the risk of PVP entirely. Two different types of risk, as ZOS makes clear.

There are two types of risk to getting Tel-Var. The one that is inherent to PVP and the one that is part of the loss system.

Removing risk would be deleting 100% of the risk, both types of risk. I do not want to remove the risk, I want to reduce it. I want to remove a risk but not the risk. It is a subtle difference but it makes a lot of difference as a PVE IC would definitely not be good.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

I really think that Imperial city is wasted content outside of the annual double telvar event and its a waste.

Yep pretty much.

If you don't need gold and you don't need the sub-par gear then there's no reason to ever visit IC.

Might as well play Deathmatch BG.

Maybe if you're a PvP player.

If you're primarily a PvE player, Imperial City is actually great outside of the PvP events. Oh, you'll still run into an occasional enemy player or three, but as a general rule it's usually pretty quick and easy to complete all six district dailies and earn a minimum of 1,200 Tel Var a day from the reward satchels, plus whatever Tel Var and key fragments you got from killing things while doing the dailies. You can easily earn 10,000 or more Tel Var a week just by doing the district dailies, and much more than that if you run around killing mobs and bosses in the sewers for a while. That might be small potatoes for a PvP player, but for a PvE player it's not too bad, and it adds up.