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Clockwork city!
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Loves_guars✭✭✭✭✭
✭I played a lot of singleplayer RPG in my life I'm talking about things like Planescape Torment, KOTOR, etc known for incredible writting and I swear CWC is among those classics in my book. Lots of popular modern RPG that I shall not name are way beneath CWC.3 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Then again. The Tribunal are specifically stated to be problematic, and definitely not "saints". So it should not be at all unusual that Sotha Sil has some very disturbing and possibly evil, over-controlling undertones to him.
They did a really great job at portraying the two Tribunal members that got fleshed out - both Vivec in the original TES3, and Sotha Sil in CWC. They're both not really "human" any more, which should be expected after centuries of near-unlimited power. (In fact, all three seem to have stayed comparatively sane, considering the circumstances.) Sotha Sil was the science guy and engineer from the beginning, and he now has had unlimited resources and opportunities to indulge his imagination.
Vivec got the same ... iridescent characterisation in TES3, and again in ESO (although to a lesser extent). Only Almalexia is still missing this treatment - it's hinted at but never fully explored.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »SidraWillowsky wrote: »(snipping my own quote)
I agree that character development-wise she's *by far* the worst, but just remember she was part of the base game. Base game writing was... Not so good. Very few recurring characters with any depth, lots of random and contrived storylines. In that context, almalexia's horrible character development is not at all out of place.
That said it's a bad look and I agree they need to do something to put her on the same footing as the rest of the tribunal. At the same time, I think the tribunal has gotten a lot of attention and there are other cultures in desperate need of some love as well.
Good points all around. I'd be thrilled to have more Tribunal content, but that's because it's my favorite. I can definitely understand the need for more depth to and development of other lore though.
Yes, even if she is a villain she must get more attention and complications, because just obvious plain villains are boring. I want to see some moral choises and traps and a villain which you can understand somehowSidraWillowsky wrote: »it's glaringly obvious how overlooked Almalexia is aside from being portrayed as a one-dimensional b*tch.
Right- even Vivec has SOME redeeming qualities, and I'd say he's mostly a villain. Almalexia has none. Some people -including myself- like to think of what happened in the Tribunal expansion to cause her to go mad about her loss of power was her inability to help her people without it and witness their downfall, like a mother having to watch her children suffer while she is utterly unable to help them. Certainly a more sympathetic point of view and it's perhaps reaching a bit, but even stuff like that would show how much she cares about her people (vs. just being told she does). People tend to react to strong, powerful, no-nonsense female characters by writing them off as b*tchy, unfortunately, but there's no room for even that with Alma because she's so damn flat as a character. I just want to have SOMETHING that I can use to defend her, but right now we've been given nothing that makes her redeemable.
Apologies for the slight derail OP; this has been on my mind for a while and I needed to put it out there. The TES franchise has always done a pretty good job of creating decent female characters, so I have full faith that they could make Almalexia better if they tried.
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No worries at all it's a very good point. For a living God and ruler she played an awfully small roll in the base EP storyline and three banners war. I've always been annoyed by that.Edited by worrallj on March 4, 2020 1:54PM2 -
ZOS_AdrikothadminHey there @worrallj we're happy to hear that you enjoyed Clockwork City! Thanks for sharing.
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CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like so much CWC
It just reminds me fallout
It reminds me of Morrowind.
Where it first appeared. :PIn-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | If you know me from PCEU: No3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »Sotha Sil and the Tribunal lore in general is possibly the most well-done and fleshed-out NPC/lore in any game I've played. They knocked it out of the park with Sotha Sil and CWC.
Tangent incoming, but with Vivec getting so much background and characterization in Morrowind and beyond (Kirkbride's golden child), and Sotha Sil getting so much character development in ESO, it's glaringly obvious how overlooked Almalexia is aside from being portrayed as a one-dimensional b*tch. We're told she's the compassionate "Mother Morrowind" and a fierce warrior, but we never see that. We see her driven mad in the Morrowind expansion, and we see her kill someone with his mother watching in ESO because he doubts the Tribunal. She's cold and flat and it makes me mad that the one woman in the Tribunal gets this treatment. Once again, the woman in the position of power is a cold, hard b*tch with no redeeming qualities.
ZOS please give her character more dimensionality. There's a massive dearth of strong, not-overly-sexualized women in video games and this is the perfect opportunity to create one...
But yeah, CWC is amazing and one of the only quests that I paid full attention to. Sil is amazing and the conversation you have with him at the end of the quest is phenominal.
I always thought Almalexia was a fun character since I met her in TES III Tribunal. Sure, she's a villain. But really, when the person who's the reason you'll never regain your godly powers AND you know full well that person set in motion the chain of events that's going to lead to the destruction of Vvardenfell when Baar Dau falls AND who claims to be the reincarnation of your dead husband shows up at your front door...
Yeah, I wouldn't be too keen on the Nerevarine either.
On the flip side, I headcanon that my Nerevarine wound up running off to Akavir precisely because she couldn't deal with the responsibility on her shoulders of trying to get everyone through Baar Dau, Red Year, and fighting an entirely predictable war against the Saxheel. So she wound up understanding Almalexia pretty well in the end.1 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭
They did a really great job at portraying the two Tribunal members that got fleshed out - both Vivec in the original TES3, and Sotha Sil in CWC. They're both not really "human" any more, which should be expected after centuries of near-unlimited power. (In fact, all three seem to have stayed comparatively sane, considering the circumstances.) Sotha Sil was the science guy and engineer from the beginning, and he now has had unlimited resources and opportunities to indulge his imagination.
Vivec got the same ... iridescent characterisation in TES3, and again in ESO (although to a lesser extent). Only Almalexia is still missing this treatment - it's hinted at but never fully explored.
Oh definitely. Sotha Sil now has unlimited resources, opportunities, and (most importantly) lab rats. It almost seems natural that he should....start to lose himself a little and act less than stellar towards his subjects in increasingly over-controlling ways.
And yeah, Almalexia has like, NO characterization whatsoever. It's a bit weird, like she's just there but not really a person at all. And her "questline" in the Pact was...lackluster. I actually said at one point "what, that's it?" because it seemed like she ought to be a little more important than a thumb note.
Even in the game, TES 3 Morrowind, she had like, no personality to her besides a very basic "evil" one. Which was really bad because A: It seemed like she was the ONLY female of any note within that game (unless you can think of anyone else) and B: The writing for all the male characters were all pretty spectacular, so it was painfully obvious in contrast. And disappointing.
But I digress. Clockwork city is a well written storyline about a definitely dystopia society where its creator has hints of trying to remove free will from the people in his petri dish.
I think one of the only things that disappointed me about Clockwork (or that I thought was odd) was the fact
(sorry, it's spoilery)that horrible aspects of this dystopia was ADDRESSED by one of the quest NPCs (Chancellor Gascone)at some point in the questline, and he basically makes the excuse that he was trying to take over Clockwork and rule a little bit kinder than Sil was. But then, the horrible aspects of Clockwork are NEVER brought up ever again after that.
Clockwork IS virtually a prison where people have to withstand torments (I'm thinking about the people of Slag Town, where it appears they do not even have a consistent way to get food or blankets and have to rely on strangers like the player character doing daily quests to get these items). And the people are tormented by Sil's fabricants, who are determined to literally kill anything in their way. It's very much like a shinier version of Coldharbour, just not with the overt torture (instead, the tortures are hidden within subtext or less obvious).
Which always begged the question: we liberated the souls of Coldharbour, and have proven to help people in many other zones in a heroic, "good guy" way. Why aren't we tasked with liberating the poor people in Slag Town? What, so we're just supposed to leave them there?3 -
Lixiviant✭✭✭✭Didn't love CWC when I first went there, but find myself going back now and enjoying it. Go figure!PS4/PS5/NA - And sometimes EU
Daedroth might bite, just letting you know0 -
Yes, yesssss please continue this thread maybe we'll inspire a Clockwork event soon. Very sick of dragons lizards and dark stuff.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »Once again, the woman in the position of power is a cold, hard b*tch with no redeeming qualities.
Ayrenn is a big exception.
The queen in Evermore has other flaws, but not those.
Countess Tamriel ... well she does, actually, but I don't think it was intentional.
Zeira is a big exception.
Captain Kaleen and Larisa are exceptions.
Lyris has a lot of status even if it's not exactly power.
Similarly Valsieren (sp?).0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As for female characters in TES3: The two Telvanni councilors come to mind, esp. Dratha, and the Ashlander Wise Women. But yeah, not too many female characters in positions of power there.
Regarding the living conditions in CWC, I wouldn't see it that harshly. The CWC as a whole is a weird attempt at recreating the real world as an artificial mechanism, and if you take a look at Tamriel presented in the game, there's aggressive wildlife and other dangers all over the place. The Clockwork City replaces them with mechanical versions or factotum stand-ins but the effect is not vastly different from your normal Tamriel overland zone. As such, Sotha Sil isn't trying to create a "utopia", he's mimicking (or simulating) reality.
Similarly with the five people or so who represent Slag Town. I don't think their fate is supposed to be particularly harsh; it's supposed to simulate the outcasts and marginalised classes within the specific premises of the CWC. (It does quite heavily allude to real-world Industrial Revolution era issues, complete with a pseudo-communist revolutionary.)
Although it would be interesting to see how the CWC handles change and mobility. Much of its simulation has the vibe of being a snapshot of reality, played in an infinite loop. That static, never-changing aspect of its society is probably more dystopian than the general living conditions.2 -
Ilsabet✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Clockwork city is a well written storyline about a definitely dystopia society where its creator has hints of trying to remove free will from the people in his petri dish.
That puts an interesting spin on the way Sotha Sil focuses on the Vestige/Prisoner's ability to make choices and see a way out of otherwise inevitable fate. We seem to be an anomaly in his eyes, and he says he envies our ability to be uncertain, but if you're right that he'd rather erase free will then we would be a potential glitch in the system.Ilsabet Menard - DC Breton Nightblade archer - Savior of Pretty Much Everything, Grand Overlord & Empress Nubcakes
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My characters and their overly elaborate backstories
Ilsabet's Headcanon
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Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭As for female characters in TES3: The two Telvanni councilors come to mind, esp. Dratha, and the Ashlander Wise Women. But yeah, not too many female characters in positions of power there.
Ah thank you! I knew I had to be missing some people. It's been a long time.Regarding the living conditions in CWC, I wouldn't see it that harshly. The CWC as a whole is a weird attempt at recreating the real world as an artificial mechanism, and if you take a look at Tamriel presented in the game, there's aggressive wildlife and other dangers all over the place. The Clockwork City replaces them with mechanical versions or factotum stand-ins but the effect is not vastly different from your normal Tamriel overland zone. As such, Sotha Sil isn't trying to create a "utopia", he's mimicking (or simulating) reality.
Similarly with the five people or so who represent Slag Town. I don't think their fate is supposed to be particularly harsh; it's supposed to simulate the outcasts and marginalised classes within the specific premises of the CWC. (It does quite heavily allude to real-world Industrial Revolution era issues, complete with a pseudo-communist revolutionary.)
Although it would be interesting to see how the CWC handles change and mobility. Much of its simulation has the vibe of being a snapshot of reality, played in an infinite loop. That static, never-changing aspect of its society is probably more dystopian than the general living conditions.
I....I am not sure what you're saying here. That's it's OK for these people to suffer because it's a reflection of reality??
That these people must be forced into suffering solely for the purposes of emulating the overworld?
As you yourself said, Clockwork appears to be static with no visible mobility. How horrible would it be if you were to wake up every day of your life, struggle to find food and clothing, and to repeat these steps all over again the next day with the knowledge that you can NEVER improve your conditions beyond this? That you would NEVER be able to have the comfort and security of the Apostles because you happen to be born with "lesser intelligence", to no fault of your own? It's no wonder Slag Town was so obsessed with the Prognosticator.Clockwork city is a well written storyline about a definitely dystopia society where its creator has hints of trying to remove free will from the people in his petri dish.
That puts an interesting spin on the way Sotha Sil focuses on the Vestige/Prisoner's ability to make choices and see a way out of otherwise inevitable fate. We seem to be an anomaly in his eyes, and he says he envies our ability to be uncertain, but if you're right that he'd rather erase free will then we would be a potential glitch in the system.
I just thought of ANOTHER example of Sotha Sil's whole "serve the great wheel" angle (spoilery example):I recall one Apostle slated to be the new keeper of Sotha Sil's memories. If you have her refuse this, she is banished. In other words, it's again reflective of Sotha Sil's suppression of free will and reign. If you want to remain an Apostle, you must give up your own desires, your own free will (and in this case, even your own personality and memories; the very thing that defines your person-hood) and serve as a tool to preserve Sotha Sil's memories and person-hood0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What I wanted to say: It's not the living conditions per se that are the real problem with Slag Town, as I thought you said in your earlier post. (I may have been wrong about that.) The level of dangerous "wildlife" is not extraordinary, and the poverty in Slag Town is not more extreme than comparable fringes in Tamriel society experience. It's that there seems to be no way out.2 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I wanted to say: It's not the living conditions per se that are the real problem with Slag Town, as I thought you said in your earlier post. (I may have been wrong about that.) The level of dangerous "wildlife" is not extraordinary, and the poverty in Slag Town is not more extreme than comparable fringes in Tamriel society experience. It's that there seems to be no way out.
Ah I think I understand now. It isn't the conditions per se that is the most horrible aspect of this, but the fact that there is no escape from them. Just as you mentioned, there is no mobility to ascend the ranks and improve your living conditions. And additionally, the Apostles seem to purposely prevent people from leaving, like jailers or something.
So you do agree that it's bad, just that the lack of freedom and mobility is even worse. That's a fair point, and I think it is ultimately what I was trying to get at. I recognize that there are plenty of suffering people in Tamriel, but it just seemed to me that the Clockwork people were suffering worse just because there is absolutely no hope of escape from whatever fate they have. Other places, like Cyrodiil, have a ton of refugees moving on to better locales. But Clockwork gives you no capability to do this.Edited by Wolf_Eye on March 4, 2020 10:43PM2 -
NeeScrolls✭✭✭✭ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »Hey there @worrallj we're happy to hear that you enjoyed Clockwork City! Thanks for sharing.
So i'm obviously very late to-the-party here.... ( been subbed since BETA , but i always take my time and go thru all content very slowly & methodically....as in , the total opposite of players who RUSH thru everything on Day 1 release and then spend Day 2 complaining about how "i bored nothing to do this game bad!" )I just did CWC for the first time yesterday and I gotta say it was pretty cool! I think it might be the first time ESO has given us a really novel setting, and I thought it was great world building. Lots of things to be intrigued by.
...But i just gotta echo the sentiments in this thread and say: *Clockwork City* was positively AMAZING!
From the: ambient music, to the overall mystery & atmosphere, to the hysterical CROWS lol , to the fantasic ending, to the glowy art & trees, to the subtle Bank NPC who 'perks up' upon use, to those mechanical knight patrols w/ flamethrower:
....ALL OF IT = near perfection imo. Kudos @ZOS_Kevin & @ZOS_GinaBruno to whichever Zenimax Dev Team designed this zone AND especially to whichever WRITING team scripted all the various quest dialogs (in particular, as someone else already mentioned, that epic 'Sotha Sil' final convo sequence & scene) . 5 out of 5 *stars*
I'm almost afraid to begin my next DLC zone , for fear of comparing too much to Clockwork City.
p.s. And....i still have the TRIAL 'Asylum Sanctorium' to attempt for the 1st time too!!Edited by NeeScrolls on November 8, 2021 2:04AM4