Economy rigged

deleted220614-000183 · November 2021

I think developers really hate golds as a currency.
[snip]

Let me say it short way.
Golds were created out of nothing, they are not good for anything and their value is somewhere between zero and even bigger zero as devs are changing rules and destroying market on everyday basis.
This has the consequences as guild owners have to bid every week on guildtraders and they need to earn golds for it, otherwise hundreds of people will have not acess to the game market.

But the competition between guilds in gold currency economy is not about trading skills of guild members and their taxes and donations as gold market is something ugly and stinking you don't want to touch even with one meter long stick and crowns currency is the only king of the economy.

Some examples from EU/PC server

gold prices now / month ago / inflation (deflation) percent
___________________________________________________________
Daedra heart -2k golds / 20 golds / 10.000 percent inflation
___________________________________________________________
Heartwood - 600 golds / 1k golds / 66 percent inflation
___________________________________________________________
Yellow motif 63 Dremora /3M golds / 1M golds -300 percent deflation
________________________________________________________________

Now the problem with the golds as a reward is, that the value is not fixed to anything really valuable
The market tends to create fair gold prices for everything but every new event, DLC/ furniture etc breaks anything existing so fast and dramatic way, that you needn't just earn gold, but you must all of them reinvest the very same day you earn it. And you need to do it on everyday basis or golds lose their value very fast.

I think this is really bothering players - gold owners including me.

What's the point to do the daily quests, writs, farming and earn some 3k golds per minute when anybody just looking on daedra hearth prices can earn 1M on single trading transaction in a minute an laugh on you as you earn the very same 1M six hours hardworking . Is it fair ?

And what about daily reward 15k golds ? [snip]
Hmm, what about puting golds to luxury furniture merchant as a commodity, with the price zero ? The golds problem would be solved finally and once forever.

[edited for bashing]

spartaxoxo · November 2021

The economies vary dramatically between platforms and apparently even between pc servers, which proves they aren't rigged.

Treeshka · November 2021

Well for Daedra Hearth it was expected since new furniture recipes requires this material.

deleted220614-000183 · November 2021

Yes. Increase of the price of Daedra heart was predictable but it is annoying still watch what market is doing and how it is (over)reacting and still try to be one step ahead of others.
I made 2 millions just on daedra but it doesn't make me happy.

My point is that devs just can't make such huge artificial high demand on some existing/ cheap / slow farming item as Daedra heart and not increase droprate 1000x to get chance market replenish and adjust without shocks.
Heartwood is similar problem just not so painful.

Or they can do that and eat it on the forum because it suggests they don't understand the most basic rules of the economy and the market in their own game.
The rule is demand/offer if devs are unsure what I'm talking about.

FluffWit · November 2021

I don't see any problem with any of this.

Fairly sure Heartwood spikes with the last event because of the writs for the title. People who don't normally craft furniture use it.

You already explained the Daedra Hearts. 2k is still pretty reasonable and I doubt it'll last. At least they're worth something now.

Dremora motifs.... lol, gold books. Just silly collectors items really.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Where do you think the gold comes from? It was all generated by players at some point by the same methods as everyone else: killing mobs, doing daily writs, etc. Even bots generate their gold by killing stuff. Yes, prices are really inflated on PCs but I have a feeling that's more due to people who had tons of gold they weren't using trading it for Crowns to people who are now spending that previously stored gold.

When a new zone drops, Supply is small and Demand high for new items, so prices are high. There's nothing "artificial" about it. As players play the new zone, supply increases and prices eventually drop. The Devs don't design supply to be generous immediately - I mean, they do want players to go out and play the content to get the new items.

Funny thing is, inflation hits everything in the player -to-player trade. If you want to make lots of gold, sell the results of those writs to other players. Brand new players fresh out the tutorial can farm and sell Alchemy reagents and even run Craglorn loops for Nirncrux. It's not really "rigged". Well, unless you want to avoid selling goods to other players and skip farming for your own stuff if the price is too high, in which case that sucks.

Finally, we're getting a big house reward at the same time the New Life Festival Writs might require more furnishing materials. Both of those usually cause a big spike in demand when they happen seperately so don't be surprised if Heartwood and Mundane Runes get eyewatering expensive soon.

SimonThesis · November 2021

The problem is the gold sinks aren't strong enough. We've had rampant inflation for a while, opposite problem of NW.

xeNNNNN · November 2021

it isn't that the economy is rigged, its that people simply don't shop around which just allows inflation to sit where it is (one reason anyway). For example in EP EU the average player will either go to Craglorn or Deshaan, the reason being is;
1) Deshaans guild traders on top of the wayshrine
2) The reason for Craglorn is its a well known trading hot spot even for those who really don't use the market that often.

This allows for the sellers to sell at a higher price knowing they will sell regardless, meaning that it doesn't matter if the item is actually worth how much it is sold for, it only matters that it sells.

The other thing is that, when a new item comes out - depending on its rarity, demand and ease of acquisition, people will sell those items initially for an exorbitant price, however once the big spenders have what they want the price comes down because the people using the market at that point simply dont have the gold or are unwilling to pay for it. The exception to this rule is probably knights of the circle motifs that ultimately take a very very very long time to acquire and other things like aetherial dust which has something akin to a 0.01% drop rate lol However those prices only come down a bit and then they will just sit there, basically forever because nothing is changing to warrant a price drop.

The same happens for existing items as well, until an event comes along or something spikes demand of those existing items.

All in all, while ZoS could put measures in to rebalance the economy so to speak it would be unwise because the moment the devs start manipulating the market in that way then the market will come screeching to a halt most likely and all of a sudden all that gold you have will be even more worthless than you perceive it to be now.

The biggest issue is inflation, however because as you pointed out people have more sources of gold than purchases it does mean that prices will get beefed up to exploit that and thus they will exceed what they're worth. The only thing that would change prices right now is if the drop rates and harvested nodes drop count was dramatically increased which would force prices down. Even the average player doesn't want to spend more than they need to.

What we need is a lot of people to undercut the lowest price so that it sells immediately if enough people did that for virtually all inflated items, the prices would drop significantly. But it would take time. Take Alliance Spell pots for example, If the price is 40,000g for 200 then I will sell 200 at 38,000g because it will sell quicker. Do I technically take a lost in the transaction? yep. Does it matter to me? No because gold is only as useful as it needs to be when you actually need something.

Ultimately the source of the problem is both the buyers and sellers not the lack of action from the developer in this case.

wolfie1.0. · November 2021

xeNNNNN wrote: »

it isn't that the economy is rigged, its that people simply don't shop around which just allows inflation to sit where it is (one reason anyway). For example in EP EU the average player will either go to craglorn or deshaan, the reason being is 1 deshaans guild traders on top of the wayshrine, the reason for craglorn is its a well known trading hot spot even for those who really use the market that often.

This allows for the sellers to sell at a higher price knowing they will sell regardless, meaning that it doesn't matter if the item is actually worth how much it is sold for, it only matters that it sells.

The other thing is that, when a new item comes out - depending on its rarity, demand and ease of acquisition, people will sell those items initially for an exorbitant price, however once the big spenders have what they want the price comes down because the people using the market at that point simply dont have the gold or are unwilling to pay for it. The exception to this rule is probably knights of the circle motifs that ultimately take a very very very long time to acquire and other things like aetherial dust which has something akin to a 0.01% drop rate lol However those prices only come down a bit and then they will just sit there, basically forever because nothing is changing to warrant a price drop.

The same happens for existing items as well, until an event comes along or something spikes demand of those existing items.

All in all, while ZoS could put measures in to rebalance the economy so to speak it would be unwise because the moment the devs start manipulating the market in that way then the market will come screeching to a halt most likely and all of a sudden all that gold you have will be even more worthless than you perceive it to be now.

The biggest issue is inflation, however because as you pointed out people have more sources of gold than purchases it does mean that prices will get beefed up to exploit that and thus they will exceed what they're worth. The only thing that would change prices right now is if the drop rates and harvested nodes drop count was dramatically increased which would force prices down. Even the average player doesn't want to spend more than they need to.

What we need is a lot of people to undercut the lowest price so that it sells immediately if enough people did that for virtually all inflated items, the prices would drop significantly. But it would take time. Take Alliance Spell pots for example, If the price is 40,000g for 200 then I will sell 200 at 38,000g because it will sell quicker. Do I technically take a lost in the transaction? yep. Does it matter to me? No because gold is only as useful as it needs to be when you actually need something.

Ultimately the source of the problem is both the buyers and sellers not the lack of action from the developer in this case.

No one wants to admit this, but a hard cap of what can be stored in the craft bag would create such a flood. As players would need to liquidate mats. It would probably also cause ZOS to lose a bunch of IRL money as people cancel plus as a result.

Nanfoodle · November 2021

Supply and demand. Every time content is added people will want the new and shinny and will pay more for it. This is mmo 101 since EQ 1999.

deleted220614-000183 · November 2021

Hey people, some of you don't see economy problem and some of you are speaking about gold sinks. It is not what I'm speaking about. The problem is the (un)stability of the economy and problematic gold market as golds are losing value very quickly.
If you put them in the bank and let them alone, their value is halved every 2 months because of golds/crown inflation.

I already explained you, nothing motivates me to farm resources, make quests, do writs with the reward 3k gold per minute as watching tamrieltradecenter webpages with autorefresh 45 seconds on daedra heart (or similar hot articles because devs are making these loopholes in economy everyday) makes 2M-10M golds per day without any extra work or grind or risks.

Now the REALLY HUGE problem is that those 2M-10M golds per day ends in the hands of very few players and these are in some "god level" comparing to others .
I think less then 1 percent players are able to exploit 99 percent of the whole economy on the whole server !!!!!!
It matters when running any expensive project, for example running a trading guild, decorating a lot of houses with high end rare furniture etc. because it is the 1 percent who dictates the prices for the others.

For example mediocre guild trader on PC EU costs 6-12M golds per week and top up to 100M per week because of easy golds everywhere and because of 1% of the super rich..

It doesn't make any sense to farm, do writs, quests because you can't compete like this.
You must be very tough among other tough guys and you can't be10 seconds later when running to the guildshop for 1M deal , because 10 seconds is the difference between gettinhg millions or getting nothing.

Game with such crappy economy is frustrating and annoying.
So why we have these problems ?
Because economy is rigged and get you 2 options only.
Speculate and become a tough guy or be poor forever (and became even poorer because of inflation).

I think it is not fair and the first think to do is let the market stabilize itself and stop changing rules day by day.

Raideen · November 2021

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

redspecter23 · November 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

Raideen · November 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

That information is HOW they control the market. If they cant find out where to buy the cheap items so easily, it corrects that problem.

Kiralyn2000 · November 2021

Meh. Not sure how this is any different than any other MMO (where prices change over time, gold gets inflated as people farm more and more of it, and "big traders" buy low & sell high on the auction houses to make piles).

Nothing new here.

(and yeah, people who go to the trouble to farm "valuable" things and sell them on the market, get more gold than people who just farm mobs & quest rewards. Also nothing new there. That's how it's been in every MMO I've played over the last 15 years.)

edit: and I say this as someone who doesn't do the Big Trader thing, and has always been basically "poor" in all the MMOs I've played. Them's the breaks. /shrug

Raideen · November 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Meh. Not sure how this is any different than any other MMO (where prices change over time, gold gets inflated as people farm more and more of it, and "big traders" buy low & sell high on the auction houses to make piles).

Nothing new here. /shrug

(and yeah, people who go to the trouble to farm "valuable" things and sell them on the market, get more gold than people who just farm mobs & quest rewards. Also nothing new there. That's how it's been in every MMO I've played over the last 15 years.)

Except its not people "farming".

I am watching people list 3000 decorative wax, mundane runes, heartwood WEEKLY...you cant farm that much, its impossible, literally impossible for one person.

They are not amassing this stuff through farming. Althoguh there are a couple prominent guild traders who seem to be the only source for uber rare items that they list weekly for millions and millions of gold. I guess they found that ONE spot in the game that gives them these uber rare items.

Secondly. The whole idea behind guild traders/stalls is to eliminate the "central market" we see in other MMO's, except that MM and TTC combine all this data into one central market.

VaranisArano · November 2021

trpajzla wrote: »

Hey people, some of you don't see economy problem and some of you are speaking about gold sinks. It is not what I'm speaking about. The problem is the (un)stability of the economy and problematic gold market as golds are losing value very quickly.
If you put them in the bank and let them alone, their value is halved every 2 months because of golds/crown inflation.

I already explained you, nothing motivates me to farm resources, make quests, do writs with the reward 3k gold per minute as watching tamrieltradecenter webpages with autorefresh 45 seconds on daedra heart (or similar hot articles because devs are making these loopholes in economy everyday) makes 2M-10M golds per day without any extra work or grind or risks.

Now the REALLY HUGE problem is that those 2M-10M golds per day ends in the hands of very few players and these are in some "god level" comparing to others .
I think less then 1 percent players are able to exploit 99 percent of the whole economy on the whole server !!!!!!
It matters when running any expensive project, for example running a trading guild, decorating a lot of houses with high end rare furniture etc. because it is the 1 percent who dictates the prices for the others.

For example mediocre guild trader on PC EU costs 6-12M golds per week and top up to 100M per week because of easy golds everywhere and because of 1% of the super rich..

It doesn't make any sense to farm, do writs, quests because you can't compete like this.
You must be very tough among other tough guys and you can't be10 seconds later when running to the guildshop for 1M deal , because 10 seconds is the difference between gettinhg millions or getting nothing.

Game with such crappy economy is frustrating and annoying.
So why we have these problems ?
Because economy is rigged and get you 2 options only.
Speculate and become a tough guy or be poor forever (and became even poorer because of inflation).

I think it is not fair and the first think to do is let the market stabilize itself and stop changing rules day by day.

Do you need to compete with that?

Motivation aside, what's stopping you from farming daedra heart and selling it, thus staking out your piece of the speculation pie? Anyone can farm that item, join a guild, and list it for their desired price.

It's not exactly rigged when anyone can play. My fortune was built on perfect roe, nirncrux, and Alchemy reagents; stuff that level 3 players fresh from the tutorial can get.

Just because you don't want to farm for your own stuff or for stuff to sell doesn't mean it's not a viable and indeed quite profitable option. This business of blaming players for not setting prices low enough for you, then refusing to go farm your own items so you don't have to pay anything just befuddles me.

The reason we're talking about gold sinks is because that's how you combat inflation when gold is literally generated out of thin air by players playing the game. You have to take gold out of the economy. That's a gold sink.

For a long time, the trader bid was an extremely effective gold sink. But over the last year and a half, inflation has been creeping up to pretty high levels.

Why now? It's probably not new gold. There's no new source of gold generation that's extreme enough to explain what we're seeing. PC has always generated more gold than consoles due to more players doing writs with addons. But until the last year and a half, most of that gold was sitting in player banks, not being spent and thus not contributing to inflation.

So what happened? My theory is that the pandemic made it a lot more worthwhile to spend gold for Crown Items. Players who would buy crowns in the past decided to save their money and spend gold instead. Combine that with a Steam exploit for cheap Crowns, and suddenly there's a lot more gold changing hands. The people who got the gold didn't stick it in their bank and forget about it - they've been spending it. A lot of that stored gold is back in the economy now, and inflation is the result.

Solution? Take some of that gold out of the PC economy. The easiest way to do so? New gold sinks that actually remove large chunks of gold from the economy, because the trader bid isn't cutting it.

In other words, if you want to fix the inflation caused by too much generated gold flowing around, you should really consider gold sinks as a solution.

Kwoung · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

trpajzla wrote: »

Hey people, some of you don't see economy problem and some of you are speaking about gold sinks. It is not what I'm speaking about. The problem is the (un)stability of the economy and problematic gold market as golds are losing value very quickly.
If you put them in the bank and let them alone, their value is halved every 2 months because of golds/crown inflation.

I already explained you, nothing motivates me to farm resources, make quests, do writs with the reward 3k gold per minute as watching tamrieltradecenter webpages with autorefresh 45 seconds on daedra heart (or similar hot articles because devs are making these loopholes in economy everyday) makes 2M-10M golds per day without any extra work or grind or risks.

Now the REALLY HUGE problem is that those 2M-10M golds per day ends in the hands of very few players and these are in some "god level" comparing to others .
I think less then 1 percent players are able to exploit 99 percent of the whole economy on the whole server !!!!!!
It matters when running any expensive project, for example running a trading guild, decorating a lot of houses with high end rare furniture etc. because it is the 1 percent who dictates the prices for the others.

For example mediocre guild trader on PC EU costs 6-12M golds per week and top up to 100M per week because of easy golds everywhere and because of 1% of the super rich..

It doesn't make any sense to farm, do writs, quests because you can't compete like this.
You must be very tough among other tough guys and you can't be10 seconds later when running to the guildshop for 1M deal , because 10 seconds is the difference between gettinhg millions or getting nothing.

Game with such crappy economy is frustrating and annoying.
So why we have these problems ?
Because economy is rigged and get you 2 options only.
Speculate and become a tough guy or be poor forever (and became even poorer because of inflation).

I think it is not fair and the first think to do is let the market stabilize itself and stop changing rules day by day.

Do you need to compete with that?

Motivation aside, what's stopping you from farming daedra heart and selling it, thus staking out your piece of the speculation pie? Anyone can farm that item, join a guild, and list it for their desired price.

It's not exactly rigged when anyone can play. My fortune was built on perfect roe, nirncrux, and Alchemy reagents; stuff that level 3 players fresh from the tutorial can get.

Just because you don't want to farm for your own stuff or for stuff to sell doesn't mean it's not a viable and indeed quite profitable option. This business of blaming players for not setting prices low enough for you, then refusing to go farm your own items so you don't have to pay anything just befuddles me.

The reason we're talking about gold sinks is because that's how you combat inflation when gold is literally generated out of thin air by players playing the game. You have to take gold out of the economy. That's a gold sink.

For a long time, the trader bid was an extremely effective gold sink. But over the last year and a half, inflation has been creeping up to pretty high levels.

Why now? It's probably not new gold. There's no new source of gold generation that's extreme enough to explain what we're seeing. PC has always generated more gold than consoles due to more players doing writs with addons. But until the last year and a half, most of that gold was sitting in player banks, not being spent and thus not contributing to inflation.

So what happened? My theory is that the pandemic made it a lot more worthwhile to spend gold for Crown Items. Players who would buy crowns in the past decided to save their money and spend gold instead. Combine that with a Steam exploit for cheap Crowns, and suddenly there's a lot more gold changing hands. The people who got the gold didn't stick it in their bank and forget about it - they've been spending it. A lot of that stored gold is back in the economy now, and inflation is the result.

Solution? Take some of that gold out of the PC economy. The easiest way to do so? New gold sinks that actually remove large chunks of gold from the economy, because the trader bid isn't cutting it.

In other words, if you want to fix the inflation caused by too much generated gold flowing around, you should really consider gold sinks as a solution.

100% agree with everything you said, all of these so called "exploits", aren't, and they are available to any player that wishes to engage in that activity. It is no different than any other part of the game. PVP rewards require you PVP or pay the guy who does. Writ Voucher rewards, require you do Master Writs, or pay the guy that does. Vet Trials Motifs, do vet trials or pay the guy that does. Become a multi-billionaire so you can easily afford end game activities like high end housing decorating, get good at the trade game or sell crowns, both activities of which are available to anyone who opens the game client.

Your last statement/sentence pretty much nailed it though, there needs to be considerably more gold sinks. That said, I would rather experience this, than what is going on over in NW right now, which is massive deflation, and is considerably more destructive to a game than inflation ever could be.

Vevvev · November 2021

Raideen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

That information is HOW they control the market. If they cant find out where to buy the cheap items so easily, it corrects that problem.

Only how the lazy ones do it. The true dedicated ones will sift through all the data they collect by visiting every single guild trader. TTC and MM are usually out of date and are going off of information collected by people using the addon and saving said data to the shared database. They do not have a direct connection to ESO's database with full real time data.

Raideen · November 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

That information is HOW they control the market. If they cant find out where to buy the cheap items so easily, it corrects that problem.

Only how the lazy ones do it. The true dedicated ones will sift through all the data they collect by visiting every single guild trader. TTC and MM are usually out of date and are going off of information collected by people using the addon and saving said data to the shared database. They do not have a direct connection to ESO's database with full real time data.

This is patently incorrect. I myself have used TTC to get data and have bought up many items that were super cheap (I dont flip, I use them for decorating).

The data is not really "out dated", in as much as the data might be 10 minutes old before someone with an addon visits the trader which then uploads the data.

The times when items are bought out ASAP making the data "outdated" is when a fellow guildie of the guild who has listed the item who also uses MM, gets notified of items that are below market value. Again, the addon allows for this data. the addons undoubtedly make the combing through of data much faster. This is undeniable.

redspecter23 · November 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

That information is HOW they control the market. If they cant find out where to buy the cheap items so easily, it corrects that problem.

Only how the lazy ones do it. The true dedicated ones will sift through all the data they collect by visiting every single guild trader. TTC and MM are usually out of date and are going off of information collected by people using the addon and saving said data to the shared database. They do not have a direct connection to ESO's database with full real time data.

This is patently incorrect. I myself have used TTC to get data and have bought up many items that were super cheap (I dont flip, I use them for decorating).

The data is not really "out dated", in as much as the data might be 10 minutes old before someone with an addon visits the trader which then uploads the data.

The times when items are bought out ASAP making the data "outdated" is when a fellow guildie of the guild who has listed the item who also uses MM, gets notified of items that are below market value. Again, the addon allows for this data. the addons undoubtedly make the combing through of data much faster. This is undeniable.

MM and TTC can track things that are happening or have already happened. As mentioned in the post that you call "patently incorrect", the dedicated players are out there looking at the prices themselves. MM can very much be out of date or maybe out of touch, especially if someone doesn't know how to interpret the data or anticipate trends.

Kwoung · November 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the API that MM and Tamriel Trade Center use and the economy will fix. Those addons allow for data that goes far beyond the scope of what the devs intended. They allow for too much flipping. The richest players in the game just flip all day. This maintains inflation. Buying low and selling high is one thing, but when a small handful of players can control the market because the markets reach is so limited buy buying ALL of the cheaply listed stuff and flipping it...well you get what we have today, a broken system.

Last year I watched my guild trader leadership buying up mundane runes and pushing their prices up to 400 a rune (which is CHEAP by todays standards). The economy in ESO is simply not large enough to allow for addons that allow a small group of people to control the market.

This is why you dont see the same issue on consoles.

I can't see how removing information from people removes the problem. The rich players will still do what they do as they will have an eye on the market and know the potential value of items. The masses will have no clue, making the issue even worse.

That information is HOW they control the market. If they cant find out where to buy the cheap items so easily, it corrects that problem.

Only how the lazy ones do it. The true dedicated ones will sift through all the data they collect by visiting every single guild trader. TTC and MM are usually out of date and are going off of information collected by people using the addon and saving said data to the shared database. They do not have a direct connection to ESO's database with full real time data.

This is patently incorrect. I myself have used TTC to get data and have bought up many items that were super cheap (I dont flip, I use them for decorating).

The data is not really "out dated", in as much as the data might be 10 minutes old before someone with an addon visits the trader which then uploads the data.

The times when items are bought out ASAP making the data "outdated" is when a fellow guildie of the guild who has listed the item who also uses MM, gets notified of items that are below market value. Again, the addon allows for this data. the addons undoubtedly make the combing through of data much faster. This is undeniable.

MM and TTC can track things that are happening or have already happened. As mentioned in the post that you call "patently incorrect", the dedicated players are out there looking at the prices themselves. MM can very much be out of date or maybe out of touch, especially if someone doesn't know how to interpret the data or anticipate trends.

You are both correct really, while yes there are the dedicated traders and always will be. The addons make it so easy that anyone with little to no market knowledge or skills can do it to earn many millions at the drop of a hat. Removing those addons would IMHO help stabilize the movement of money around the game instead of funneling to those doing it the easy way... While those dedicated to that part of the game and are willing to do it based on their personal research, travelling to most all traders in the game searching for deals, those players will still make their millions. Console vs PC is the easiest way to see this in action, yes they have some very rich players, but none of them did it overnight by simply loading an addon or two and joining a few trade guilds, they put in the effort and worked for it the old fashioned way.

Personally, I like the addons and ease of finding stuff they offer, but I can't deny they are causing a huge impact on the economy.

Kiralyn2000 · November 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Except its not people "farming".

I am watching people list 3000 decorative wax, mundane runes, heartwood WEEKLY...you cant farm that much, its impossible, literally impossible for one person.

Bots isn't a problem with a "rigged economy", it's a problem with bots not being stomped on. That's a separate thread.

Also, if bots are flooding the market with goods, shouldn't their price go down? More supply, after all.

Secondly. The whole idea behind guild traders/stalls is to eliminate the "central market" we see in other MMO's, except that MM and TTC combine all this data into one central market.

No central market means more opportunity for the big wheeler dealers to dominate & jack prices. Because no-one is going to take the time to go through 52 load screens and two hours to check all the locations by hand. So it's all down to the prime locations. MM and TTC seem like a great opportunity for the little guy to actually find cheaper goods.

(but what do I know, I don't bother trading at all in this game because of the guild trader system. Even in games with central houses, I don't do much - they're wonderful for the person who might only buy or sell two items in a week, unlike the convoluted mess here. It's just not worth bothering with this whole 'trade guild' thing. /shrug)

Xebov · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Solution? Take some of that gold out of the PC economy. The easiest way to do so? New gold sinks that actually remove large chunks of gold from the economy, because the trader bid isn't cutting it.

Gold sinks are hardly ever working. If everyone is forced into them it can get bad for less wealthy/new players. If its cool stuff then you end up with even more gold farming because players want to get it.

Xebov · November 2021

trpajzla wrote: »

It doesn't make any sense to farm, do writs, quests because you can't compete like this.

The millions i make each week by doing daily writs and collecting the surveys tell me you lie.

Sylvermynx · November 2021

I don't use MM because I don't do the trader/guild thing. I don't use TTC because I'm not willing to mess with a site that's full of garbage ads. When I need something (not all that often) I run around the traders at Vivec and usually have no problem finding whatever it is. I buy from whichever guild has it cheapest. I have enough gold, and I'm not wasting my time running around the world to shave a few gold off the price.

Komputerheld · November 2021

Assuming, the overall amount of tradebable goods in the game stays the same, so how does the total amout of gold per player develop over time?
Increase by players action like daily rewards, quest rewards, chests, etc all per players populations...
Decrease by payment to traders like repair or... weekly payment to guild traders.
If total amount of gold increasea the decrease of gold, -> inflation.

xeNNNNN · November 2021

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

it isn't that the economy is rigged, its that people simply don't shop around which just allows inflation to sit where it is (one reason anyway). For example in EP EU the average player will either go to craglorn or deshaan, the reason being is 1 deshaans guild traders on top of the wayshrine, the reason for craglorn is its a well known trading hot spot even for those who really use the market that often.

This allows for the sellers to sell at a higher price knowing they will sell regardless, meaning that it doesn't matter if the item is actually worth how much it is sold for, it only matters that it sells.

The other thing is that, when a new item comes out - depending on its rarity, demand and ease of acquisition, people will sell those items initially for an exorbitant price, however once the big spenders have what they want the price comes down because the people using the market at that point simply dont have the gold or are unwilling to pay for it. The exception to this rule is probably knights of the circle motifs that ultimately take a very very very long time to acquire and other things like aetherial dust which has something akin to a 0.01% drop rate lol However those prices only come down a bit and then they will just sit there, basically forever because nothing is changing to warrant a price drop.

The same happens for existing items as well, until an event comes along or something spikes demand of those existing items.

All in all, while ZoS could put measures in to rebalance the economy so to speak it would be unwise because the moment the devs start manipulating the market in that way then the market will come screeching to a halt most likely and all of a sudden all that gold you have will be even more worthless than you perceive it to be now.

The biggest issue is inflation, however because as you pointed out people have more sources of gold than purchases it does mean that prices will get beefed up to exploit that and thus they will exceed what they're worth. The only thing that would change prices right now is if the drop rates and harvested nodes drop count was dramatically increased which would force prices down. Even the average player doesn't want to spend more than they need to.

What we need is a lot of people to undercut the lowest price so that it sells immediately if enough people did that for virtually all inflated items, the prices would drop significantly. But it would take time. Take Alliance Spell pots for example, If the price is 40,000g for 200 then I will sell 200 at 38,000g because it will sell quicker. Do I technically take a lost in the transaction? yep. Does it matter to me? No because gold is only as useful as it needs to be when you actually need something.

Ultimately the source of the problem is both the buyers and sellers not the lack of action from the developer in this case.

No one wants to admit this, but a hard cap of what can be stored in the craft bag would create such a flood. As players would need to liquidate mats. It would probably also cause ZOS to lose a bunch of IRL money as people cancel plus as a result.

Yep because it would become 'limited' extra space instead of infinite, which would mean that there would be almost no real reason for people to bother with a crafting bag, which will force ZoS to then sell "extra" bag slots as a crown purchase. They'd recoup their losses but the player would still lose.

etchedpixels · November 2021

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't use MM because I don't do the trader/guild thing. I don't use TTC because I'm not willing to mess with a site that's full of garbage ads.

Use an ad blocker. I didn't even know TTC had ads until you said that 8)

hafgood · November 2021

The thing is though the whole argument is bogus. Yes somethings go up and down in value, heartwood, mundane runes, etc and new plans / motifs are expensive but those same plans / motifs drop in value as more and more come to market.

Prior to and at the start of the witches festival I was selling Hollowjack motifs for 25k, chests for 50k (PS EU) because these items were rare. Now you can fall over them at every guild trader and get them cheap, in 30 days time they will probably increase in value as those who didn't sell them will either bank them or give them away, come next September I'll start selling mine again ready for the next influx of must have everything nows.

The economy runs on market forces, its all about supply and demand, look at the amount of Dremora motifs for sale now, page after page of them and often at giveaway prices - I know the bulk of these are worthless, these will all disappear from the market once people realise their value

Heartwood goes up with events with writs and ehn there is a free house, it's going to be expensive for the rest of the year now, the problem is a limited supply and high demand, so prices go up.

Gold sinks won't change any of this, to be effective gold sinks have to affect every player on a server, its no good if it only affects a proportion of the player base as the ones unaffected will still have as much gold as they did before. So saying gold sinks will solve the inflation problem (which is a PC problem, not a console problem) is an out and out lie. Gold sinks do not solve anything, they just tax those that are interested in whatever the gold sink is aimed at.

People just need to get a grip, stop being entitled and accept that other time prices change. Some go up, some go down, some fluctuate. That's called an economy.

And remember this non problem is a PC non problem. So you can keep your solutions away from consoles as we don't have the same issues.

MatarRebel · November 2021

This probably goes without saying, but if anyone is interested in as close of an independent model of an MMO economy that exists is in EveOnline. If the mechanics (and yes, occassional GM interference but mostly hands-off) are of interest one should study how is was crafted, maintained, and exploited in EveO. It's an education to say the last. Lots of good intentioned posts above, but several who just don't understand how in-game economies can work. Just my 4.02 (played EveO for around 10 years, heavy in industry at the time).