PvM2-player versus mouse 2

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

How do we solve the m2 epidemic?

But seriously how? Surely enough time has passed and we can talk about this now right. Oh don't play dumb, you know block has been mega op this patch. Sure dark convergence and hrothgar were the big stinkers for a while, but we can't just keep ignoring this.

When people are weaving block in their rotations, we got a problem.
When people are macroing block into every button press, we got a problem.
When the average tanklet can hold block against 10 people, we got a problem.
Block casting EVERY SINGLE TIME!
EVEN nbs are running around with sword n shield now!

What is the solution though?

Oblivion damage? LOL
Stuns that go through block? Yeah try doing any meaningful damage to a tanklet in 1 second.
Out sustain them? Do I have all year to fight them?

Idk about you guys but I want to pvp, not PvM2.

milllaurie · October 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How do we solve the m2 epidemic?

But seriously how? Surely enough time has passed and we can talk about this now right. Oh don't play dumb, you know block has been mega op this patch. Sure dark convergence and hrothgar were the big stinkers for a while, but we can't just keep ignoring this.

When people are weaving block in their rotations, we got a problem.
When people are macroing block into every button press, we got a problem.
When the average tanklet can hold block against 10 people, we got a problem.
Block casting EVERY SINGLE TIME!
EVEN nbs are running around with sword n shield now!

What is the solution though?

Oblivion damage? LOL
Stuns that go through block? Yeah try doing any meaningful damage to a tanklet in 1 second.
Out sustain them? Do I have all year to fight them?

Idk about you guys but I want to pvp, not PvM2.

Do not target tanks that is it. A point about tanks - they are useless apart from wasting your time. Do not let them waste your time. Solved.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

milllaurie wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How do we solve the m2 epidemic?

But seriously how? Surely enough time has passed and we can talk about this now right. Oh don't play dumb, you know block has been mega op this patch. Sure dark convergence and hrothgar were the big stinkers for a while, but we can't just keep ignoring this.

When people are weaving block in their rotations, we got a problem.
When people are macroing block into every button press, we got a problem.
When the average tanklet can hold block against 10 people, we got a problem.
Block casting EVERY SINGLE TIME!
EVEN nbs are running around with sword n shield now!

What is the solution though?

Oblivion damage? LOL
Stuns that go through block? Yeah try doing any meaningful damage to a tanklet in 1 second.
Out sustain them? Do I have all year to fight them?

Idk about you guys but I want to pvp, not PvM2.

Do not target tanks that is it. A point about tanks - they are useless apart from wasting your time. Do not let them waste your time. Solved.

Its blocking that is op right now, tanks just happen to also spam block. No there is plenty enough people abusing block on damage focused builds right now. Its pretty disgusting watching all your damage go to below 1k from a guy flashing block between button presses and then proceeds to burst you hard.

gariondavey · October 2021

Slot fear, use cost increase poisons. There if 10 people are attacking what you say is an average tanklet, and not killing them, those players do not have high damage, optimized builds.
10 competent players should be able to kill anything except for perhaps a very very good perma block perma cc immunity build. The thing is, average tanklets are not that.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

Slot fear, use cost increase poisons. There if 10 people are attacking what you say is an average tanklet, and not killing them, those players do not have high damage, optimized builds.
10 competent players should be able to kill anything except for perhaps a very very good perma block perma cc immunity build. The thing is, average tanklets are not that.

They do have good damage though. Look I don't run those kind of builds so idk how they are doing it, but its happening. They probably wouldn't even call themselves tanks, but they are very effective at blocking. Trying to figure out what cp/build shenanigans are enabling this right now, so maybe we can get this sorted out by zos. All too often certain builds are just too good at too many roles. Gone are the days of making significant sacrifices in your build to bolster another aspect.

Let me make this clear I am not talking about perma blocking tanks. That is another issue that should get sorted, but I am seeing block being way too effective on non tank builds.

Everyone knows you can fear someone out of block and that isn't a solution. They will just break free and go right back to blocking while their hp instantly shoots back to full. We can't put enough sustained pressure on a guy who is abusing M2 and they are too tanky to burst in that 1 second break free period. I said in the Op to not play dumb specifically to avoid the copy paste answers. Its disrespectful because I know anyone who has pvping a lot lately should be seeing these players pretty commonly now(at least on pc).

gariondavey · October 2021

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

What are you doing when you pvp then? The front line of nearly every fight has block monsters. If you look for it you will see it. I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone or something. I see something super obvious and there is this strange paranormal phenomenon that makes everyone else unable to see it. Maybe it really is too early to call this out and the player base hasn't become aware yet. Or you all are just trolling me and don't want your builds getting attention.

rbfrgsp · October 2021

They have directional attack in the game in the form of Flanking.

Blocking should not work against flank attacks. It's obvious. It's plain and simple. It would have a massive positive effect on PvP (no more turtlettes holding block against 10 attackers). It would barely impact PvE in that you should always face a boss and block as tank if your party is standing correctly anyway.

And it could open the door for some more interesting boss mechanics, where attacks can attempt to blindside the tank and they have to use reactions a little more.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

What are you doing when you pvp then? The front line of nearly every fight has block monsters. If you look for it you will see it. I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone or something. I see something super obvious and there is this strange paranormal phenomenon that makes everyone else unable to see it. Maybe it really is too early to call this out and the player base hasn't become aware yet. Or you all are just trolling me and don't want your builds getting attention.

I'm on console, and I block cast stuff - but I don't have a modded controller. Are you complaining about perma block tanks? OR are you complaining about some block or bash cancelling in between moves? - That this cancelling is scripted not entered real time?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

rbfrgsp wrote: »

They have directional attack in the game in the form of Flanking.

Blocking should not work against flank attacks. It's obvious. It's plain and simple. It would have a massive positive effect on PvP (no more turtlettes holding block against 10 attackers). It would barely impact PvE in that you should always face a boss and block as tank if your party is standing correctly anyway.

And it could open the door for some more interesting boss mechanics, where attacks can attempt to blindside the tank and they have to use reactions a little more.

Yes it seems so obvious. Should have always been this way! This would be an amazing change to help curb the tank meta.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

What are you doing when you pvp then? The front line of nearly every fight has block monsters. If you look for it you will see it. I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone or something. I see something super obvious and there is this strange paranormal phenomenon that makes everyone else unable to see it. Maybe it really is too early to call this out and the player base hasn't become aware yet. Or you all are just trolling me and don't want your builds getting attention.

I'm on console, and I block cast stuff - but I don't have a modded controller. Are you complaining about perma block tanks? OR are you complaining about some block or bash cancelling in between moves? - That this cancelling is scripted not entered real time?

Idk exactly what they are doing, but anytime I fight one of these players they are like blocking for a split second at all times. Doesn't impact their damage at all and allows them to reduce the damage you deal to them considerably. Its absolutely cancer. Almost every single meta abuser is doing this now. This on top of the tank meta is just ridiculous.

Fennwitty · October 2021

Perhaps a naive question but shouldn't their stam regen be close to zero if they're almost always holding block?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · October 2021

Fennwitty wrote: »

Perhaps a naive question but shouldn't their stam regen be close to zero if they're almost always holding block?

Not exactly holding it like a perma blocker would, just sort of flashing it on and off. Its really hard to get any kinda damage on someone that is doing this. I would describe it as a stam dps who instead of rolling for survivability they are blocking. Unlike rolling though you can't exactly do anything about block. If someone is staying alive because they are rolling I can just aoe them and finish them off quick. Blocking stalls fights out and has no strong counter. Oblivion damage is a big stinky and fear doesn't make a big enough burst window to finish off an all ready very tanky player. I am sure they are loving having both stupidly strong defense and damage, but its making fighting a massive headache.

Dark convergence and Hrothgar got their nerfs, really hoping zos can fix tank meta next. Sad, hrothgar was actually kinda good for dealing with these players, but they got it nerfed into oblivion. Totally unresistable damage that scales off of armor is the perfect counter to this non sense and it gets nerfed even before DC did. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?!?!

Iriidius · October 2021

Blocking costs much stamina, reduces your movement speed so you cant run away while blocking, prevents you from using dizzy swing or jabs and you still get partial damage from direct damage skills and full damage from dots.

If i block burst from a strong player they just continue to attack until i am out of stamina without a break where i can stop blocking and attack without getting instakilled. The damage i get after block is still too much to outheal, sometimes it kills me even before the stamina is empty. If i dont use sword&shield and build tanky block is useless.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · November 2021

Alright Zos listen up, I know how to address tank meta without nerfing tanks in pve content. This game has a ton of mitigation sources that aren't armor related and penetration only works on armor. We got major/minor protection, blocking, major/minor evasion, Cp, battle spirit, and various other sources that are immune to penetration.

I am thinking you should change penetration so that if you over pen a target that additional penetration starts to eat away at the non armor related mitigation sources. If someone had like 10k armor and the attacker had 25k penetration he would be taking full damage even with his buffs up.

Either that or create a new minor/major buff that gives you X% irresistible damage for x seconds(doesn't work against shield spells). Hey people can stack mitigation all they want, but give us a way to counter act their passive defense with our own passive offense. Game favors defense way too much right now.

katorga · November 2021

Block has been around since release. Periodically, the pvp meta shifts to make it more useful, or it shifts to make it less useful. No changes necessary.

Right now it is more useful because ZOS has shifted from regen to skills, sets, passives that return fixed amounts of resource even while blocking. ZOS has added all sorts of sets and mechinics like Dark Convergance that require block to defend against. So in this meta blocking is more useful.

With the patch today, some classes will be able to truly permablock again.

gariondavey · November 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

What are you doing when you pvp then? The front line of nearly every fight has block monsters. If you look for it you will see it. I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone or something. I see something super obvious and there is this strange paranormal phenomenon that makes everyone else unable to see it. Maybe it really is too early to call this out and the player base hasn't become aware yet. Or you all are just trolling me and don't want your builds getting attention.

No trolling. I've not seen this happen in bgs. I have seen 1 or 2 block tanks in cyro, but still, they are almost always killable with a negate, fear, cost increase poison, heal absorption and burst combo from a few geared and competent players.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · November 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I play on pc na and I don't see this happening very often. Like almost never.

What are you doing when you pvp then? The front line of nearly every fight has block monsters. If you look for it you will see it. I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone or something. I see something super obvious and there is this strange paranormal phenomenon that makes everyone else unable to see it. Maybe it really is too early to call this out and the player base hasn't become aware yet. Or you all are just trolling me and don't want your builds getting attention.

No trolling. I've not seen this happen in bgs. I have seen 1 or 2 block tanks in cyro, but still, they are almost always killable with a negate, fear, cost increase poison, heal absorption and burst combo from a few geared and competent players.

Oh they are completely killable it just takes too long. I personally don't enjoy high ttk in my eso pvp. You know I mostly see these people in Cyrodiil in elite small groups or taking flags in Imperial city. I am not having anywhere near as much issue with killing them now that procs can crit, but my lord it was a pain last patch. Now if I can strike when their block is down I can usually take them out no problem. They aren't exactly squishy without block up, but they are not real tanks so they still can die if they slip up on their m2 game. Actually pretty good this patch so far but I still would like to see a oblivion rework for dealing with the real perma block tanks.