Why do people and this game itself hate tanks so much?

drsalvation · November 2021

Tank roles in PvP are completely useless, let's get that out of the way first. If you want to taunt other players, you need to sacrifice a gear set for another gear set that does what you're meant to be doing naturally in a tanking role (Vanguard's challenge), and you also get punished for doing so by taking 35% more damage (I mean, I guess it's a good set, but shouldn't tanks be able to taunt players for 10% with no side-effects and just use Vanguard's Challenge to amplify that effect?) making it the worst possible set to wear in a PvP environment. You also don't get rewarded for that, only for healing and dealing damage, so yeah, screw tanking in PvP.
But let's look back at PvE...
There's really no need for tanking in veteran vanilla dungeons, only DLC and Trial ones (but tanks can still get one-shot, so a DPS can pull aggro and do what the mechanic tells you to do in order to not die). Anyway, not much of an issue there, that's that, but at least they're still useful.

But man... Solo arenas...
Who sat down and thought that adding DPS checks on SOLO arenas would be a good idea?
You wanna do Vateshran and then do dungeons, you'll need to switch your build to a DPS one, and then switch back to Tanking, and in my char, skills cost 15k to change (I remember they used to charge you based on how many skill points you'd change, now they charge you based on how many total skill points you have even tho you're only changing a few skill trees... is it because people were no longer buying skill scrolls from crown store?) I spend around 30k just to do Vateshran and then back to tanking.
And yeah, armory is coming so I wouldn't need to pay every time...

But still, why are solo dungeons only for DPS builds?

And why does battle spirit completely destroys tanking builds as well, making good PvE tank builds completely obsolete in PvP, and yet somehow allowing players to one-shot tanks before they can even break free? I found myself surviving a lot more when I switched to a damage build in PvP than I ever did as a tank. In fact, "tanks" in PvP aren't really tanks, they just have the skills to bump their health regen by an awful lot since healing tends to scale with max magic/stam and weapon/spell damage.

In my opinion, tanking is really a huge waste of potential in this game, you sacrifice so much damage in exchange for mediocre defense, not that I'm expecting 50k DPS on a tank character, of course not, but there's no reason for a tank to be punished for their terrible DPS in vateshran by getting insta-killed in that ring of ghosts even tho you buffed up your best defenses and damage shields, or that the cold water in maelstrom does exponentially increasing damage to a point where you can't bounce back from it and will end up dead (wouldn't that make for a more interesting battle tho? As a tank having to constantly be defending yourself over cold water that does steady constant damage instead of increasing exponentially), if players can one-shot others, why not let tanks be tanks without a hitch on PvP? I mean, the main reason I try to stay alive is because I don't want to lose my tel-var stones in an instant by a sneaky nightblade, but I get punished for trying to not die... Heck, did you even read the notes on Hrothgar's chill?

The reason people don't like tanking is because they're extremely limited on what they can do and will find themselves switching to DPS to enjoy 100% of the game's content instead. We get DPS characters queuing up as tanks to get instantly queued, since there aren't many tanks left, and despite that, they can still run dungeons without problems (vanilla ones at the very least), making that role even more obsolete.

In the end, you just tank for DLC dungeons and Arenas, (but for the latter, you absolutely MUST be in a guild, nobody will ever do a PUG trial group with a random tank) Do you think player roles will ever be relevant in PvP or non-dungeon/trial contents? (Because you can run story mode on a naked lvl 3 char so roles aren't really necessary). Maybe by making tanking less of an inconvenience, more players would be inclined to that role?
Or should players just stick to damage builds to keep getting access all of the game's content? (I switched to damage builds to do everything with the same character, and while it works, I'm simply not enjoying it, especially pvp, it doesn't feel right for me to be a damage character, but now I can't go back to tanking because then I won't be able to grind for gladiator proofs I need for the pet lion, or run solo dungeons for weapons for other characters, or random trials because nobody will take tanks in PUGs -but WILL take DPS in PUGs-)

Hapexamendios · November 2021

At least the new armory system might make it easier to switch between a dps and tank. I don't see myself using that way though as I'll use it to switch between dungeon and trial gear.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Tanking is a role in group content, primarily. The tank taunts the boss so it doesn't target the squishier group members. This is my main role in PVE.

Solo Arenas are meant to be played solo, where you have to be tank, healer, and damage dealer. I'm not sure why you'd expect there to be no DPS checks in what's supposed to be challenging solo content. Somebody's gotta kill the boss, after all, and how much of a challenge is it if every boss can be slowly whittled down by a tank with mediocre damage?

Random trials? If you are PUGing it, keep in mind that they only need one tank and off tank, and eight DDs. Of course the DDs get picked up.

As for PVP...there's no real NPCs to taunt. So the traditional PVE tank that taunts bosses doesn't work unless you really spit fire at the enemy team. Imagine yelling "Come at me, bruh!" in whispers!

That being said, tanky builds with high resistances have done extremely well in PVP. So well, in fact, that ZOS thought Hrothgar's Chill was an appropriate countermeasure, and has been adjusting Battle Spirit to match.

Tanky builds were OP in CP Battlegrounds that ZOS' experiment with that didn't last more than a patch. And Tanky builds, played well, still draw a lot of attention in group battles in Cyrodiil. That's not because they use a taunt skill, but rather because their player knows what they are doing. If you wanna play a tanky character in PVP, be prepared that it's going to take a lot of practice. You won't be borderline unkillable like in PVE, and that's intentional.

-Note: I play a healer in PVP, which does best in a group or guild. Tanky players with a focus on CC can do quite well in guilds, though Hrothgar's Chill may make it less of a winning strategy than it used to be.

(Finally, I think the icy water you are dying to in Maelstrom is the fith Ice Arena? That's not actually a DPS race for most of the fight. The giant matriarch will break the platforms at specific health intervals. So instead, you need to pace yourself on the first two platforms, doing steady damage while killing the adds. Especially the trolls! Learn the mechanics of the health percentages so you can move to the next platform before or when she breaks the one you are on. Try to leave the big platform with two sigils for last. Then grab the Power Sigil to increase your DPS and burn her on the final platform. That IS a DPS race so you don't get dumped in the water, but it's very doable with the Power Sigil. The first time I beat that fight on Vet, I was probably doing around 10k DPS. Good luck!)

Artim_X · November 2021

Vet solo arenas are designed to test everything you got in terms of sustain, dodging, blocking, self healing, and of course damage. Going in there as a full tank/healer is just setting yourself up for a bad time.

Vanguard's challenge is a niche way for a tanky player to support others in a PvP environment, but you're better off going into pvp as a full on troll tank build if tanking is what you want to do. If you stand in the right spot your mere existence of being unable to die acts like aoe taunt for the enemy and can mess up keep/outpost takes. Also can slot a bunch of support skills to help your faction clear the field.

Player roles are absolutely relevant in PvP. With Battlegrounds objectives coming back you'll see plenty of opportunities to tank and as mentioned earlier tanking is present in Cyrodiil.

People in Craglorn at least on PCNA are always looking for pug tanks in zone chat.

DonHardstyle · November 2021

I main an dd, but I do like to tank occasionally. The problem is tho, if I do an random normal of vet dungeon. For some reason I always get grouped up with the lowest dps possible. Where it then takes ages to clear the dungeon.

Normal dungeons ain't fun to tank, just hold block and you're fine.
Vet dungeons if you as unlucky as me, it will takes ages.

Only thing I like to tank are trials. But even then when you pug them you must be lucky.

That's why I rather play my dd, instead of my tank. Cous I know I can carry the group DPS wise.

Thepeug · November 2021

I began ESO as a tank, and have mained the same character for two years now. Yes, I quickly discovered that completing pretty much any content in the game as a tank is exponentially more tedious than doing so as a dps, but I love tanking group content so much that it's been worth the sacrifice.

I will admit, though, that solo arenas as a tank can be a serious pain! Neither DSA nor MA were too tough, but Vatershran is a nightmare with the DPS check. I just beat it tonight on NOMRAL for the first time, and I'm CP 1150 (it's quite possible that I'm just terrible at the game, but still). Trying to deal with the black ghosts once the adds start piling up is intense.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2021

These are my opinions and observations:

I think there's a very good reason why Tanking is the least played out of all roles.. And I think the consistant decrease in QoL every patch is one of the reasons. This patch alone tanks lose soft taunt and mist form.

Proc sets now scale off of max ressource/weapon/spell dmg making it impossible for Tanks to get anywhere close to the dmg that was possible previously, while Tanking. This completely puts you at the mercy of your DDs to perform.

The sustained dmg on Tanks also seem to increase every patch.. Rockgrove HM is an excellent example. Heck even the adds in regular vet RG can melt a blocking tank in seconds.

And yes, for most content a Tank isn't needed. It's like a Tank is either not needed at all or it is REALLY needed. This makes leveling a Tank really brutal. for 80% of the content you don't learn anything and just tag along.. And then you get put into a Vet DLC or Vet Trial where most things one-shots you if you miss a block..

So in summery:

- Leveling Tanks is one of two extremes.. Either you face no resistance and learn nothing or most things outright kill you.
- You're more than ever at the mercy of your DDs to perform their role
- It becomes progressively harder to fulfill the Tank role (QoL)
- Dmg and punishment on Tanks seem to increase in scope every new release (Rockgrove and Dread Cellar are excellent examples)

I can see why we got a massive Tank shortage..

Edit:
As for PvP I remember someone made an excellent quote along the lines of:
"The best way to protect someone in PvP is to kill the ones attacking him"

KhajiitLivesMatter · November 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

Tank roles in PvP are completely useless, let's get that out of the way first. If you want to taunt other players, you need to sacrifice a gear set for another gear set that does what you're meant to be doing naturally in a tanking role (Vanguard's challenge), and you also get punished for doing so by taking 35% more damage (I mean, I guess it's a good set, but shouldn't tanks be able to taunt players for 10% with no side-effects and just use Vanguard's Challenge to amplify that effect?) making it the worst possible set to wear in a PvP environment. You also don't get rewarded for that, only for healing and dealing damage, so yeah, screw tanking in PvP.
But let's look back at PvE...
There's really no need for tanking in veteran vanilla dungeons, only DLC and Trial ones (but tanks can still get one-shot, so a DPS can pull aggro and do what the mechanic tells you to do in order to not die). Anyway, not much of an issue there, that's that, but at least they're still useful.

But man... Solo arenas...
Who sat down and thought that adding DPS checks on SOLO arenas would be a good idea?
You wanna do Vateshran and then do dungeons, you'll need to switch your build to a DPS one, and then switch back to Tanking, and in my char, skills cost 15k to change (I remember they used to charge you based on how many skill points you'd change, now they charge you based on how many total skill points you have even tho you're only changing a few skill trees... is it because people were no longer buying skill scrolls from crown store?) I spend around 30k just to do Vateshran and then back to tanking.
And yeah, armory is coming so I wouldn't need to pay every time...

But still, why are solo dungeons only for DPS builds?

And why does battle spirit completely destroys tanking builds as well, making good PvE tank builds completely obsolete in PvP, and yet somehow allowing players to one-shot tanks before they can even break free? I found myself surviving a lot more when I switched to a damage build in PvP than I ever did as a tank. In fact, "tanks" in PvP aren't really tanks, they just have the skills to bump their health regen by an awful lot since healing tends to scale with max magic/stam and weapon/spell damage.

In my opinion, tanking is really a huge waste of potential in this game, you sacrifice so much damage in exchange for mediocre defense, not that I'm expecting 50k DPS on a tank character, of course not, but there's no reason for a tank to be punished for their terrible DPS in vateshran by getting insta-killed in that ring of ghosts even tho you buffed up your best defenses and damage shields, or that the cold water in maelstrom does exponentially increasing damage to a point where you can't bounce back from it and will end up dead (wouldn't that make for a more interesting battle tho? As a tank having to constantly be defending yourself over cold water that does steady constant damage instead of increasing exponentially), if players can one-shot others, why not let tanks be tanks without a hitch on PvP? I mean, the main reason I try to stay alive is because I don't want to lose my tel-var stones in an instant by a sneaky nightblade, but I get punished for trying to not die... Heck, did you even read the notes on Hrothgar's chill?

The reason people don't like tanking is because they're extremely limited on what they can do and will find themselves switching to DPS to enjoy 100% of the game's content instead. We get DPS characters queuing up as tanks to get instantly queued, since there aren't many tanks left, and despite that, they can still run dungeons without problems (vanilla ones at the very least), making that role even more obsolete.

In the end, you just tank for DLC dungeons and Arenas, (but for the latter, you absolutely MUST be in a guild, nobody will ever do a PUG trial group with a random tank) Do you think player roles will ever be relevant in PvP or non-dungeon/trial contents? (Because you can run story mode on a naked lvl 3 char so roles aren't really necessary). Maybe by making tanking less of an inconvenience, more players would be inclined to that role?
Or should players just stick to damage builds to keep getting access all of the game's content? (I switched to damage builds to do everything with the same character, and while it works, I'm simply not enjoying it, especially pvp, it doesn't feel right for me to be a damage character, but now I can't go back to tanking because then I won't be able to grind for gladiator proofs I need for the pet lion, or run solo dungeons for weapons for other characters, or random trials because nobody will take tanks in PUGs -but WILL take DPS in PUGs-)

did only read the first part its a long wall of text....
so many tanks i know have a dps setup anyway cause there are some raids where u dont need 2 tanks all the time just at the end so one goes for a dd setup which obviously isnt optimised but u can still do alot of dmg with it - the raid guild i joined a long while ago i met randomly and only noticed them cause i was randomly in a raid with them where to offtank did 60k dps(a few years ago this was very much) on a boss

Jeremy · November 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

Tank roles in PvP are completely useless, let's get that out of the way first. If you want to taunt other players, you need to sacrifice a gear set for another gear set that does what you're meant to be doing naturally in a tanking role (Vanguard's challenge), and you also get punished for doing so by taking 35% more damage (I mean, I guess it's a good set, but shouldn't tanks be able to taunt players for 10% with no side-effects and just use Vanguard's Challenge to amplify that effect?) making it the worst possible set to wear in a PvP environment. You also don't get rewarded for that, only for healing and dealing damage, so yeah, screw tanking in PvP.
But let's look back at PvE...
There's really no need for tanking in veteran vanilla dungeons, only DLC and Trial ones (but tanks can still get one-shot, so a DPS can pull aggro and do what the mechanic tells you to do in order to not die). Anyway, not much of an issue there, that's that, but at least they're still useful.

But man... Solo arenas...
Who sat down and thought that adding DPS checks on SOLO arenas would be a good idea?
You wanna do Vateshran and then do dungeons, you'll need to switch your build to a DPS one, and then switch back to Tanking, and in my char, skills cost 15k to change (I remember they used to charge you based on how many skill points you'd change, now they charge you based on how many total skill points you have even tho you're only changing a few skill trees... is it because people were no longer buying skill scrolls from crown store?) I spend around 30k just to do Vateshran and then back to tanking.
And yeah, armory is coming so I wouldn't need to pay every time...

But still, why are solo dungeons only for DPS builds?

And why does battle spirit completely destroys tanking builds as well, making good PvE tank builds completely obsolete in PvP, and yet somehow allowing players to one-shot tanks before they can even break free? I found myself surviving a lot more when I switched to a damage build in PvP than I ever did as a tank. In fact, "tanks" in PvP aren't really tanks, they just have the skills to bump their health regen by an awful lot since healing tends to scale with max magic/stam and weapon/spell damage.

In my opinion, tanking is really a huge waste of potential in this game, you sacrifice so much damage in exchange for mediocre defense, not that I'm expecting 50k DPS on a tank character, of course not, but there's no reason for a tank to be punished for their terrible DPS in vateshran by getting insta-killed in that ring of ghosts even tho you buffed up your best defenses and damage shields, or that the cold water in maelstrom does exponentially increasing damage to a point where you can't bounce back from it and will end up dead (wouldn't that make for a more interesting battle tho? As a tank having to constantly be defending yourself over cold water that does steady constant damage instead of increasing exponentially), if players can one-shot others, why not let tanks be tanks without a hitch on PvP? I mean, the main reason I try to stay alive is because I don't want to lose my tel-var stones in an instant by a sneaky nightblade, but I get punished for trying to not die... Heck, did you even read the notes on Hrothgar's chill?

The reason people don't like tanking is because they're extremely limited on what they can do and will find themselves switching to DPS to enjoy 100% of the game's content instead. We get DPS characters queuing up as tanks to get instantly queued, since there aren't many tanks left, and despite that, they can still run dungeons without problems (vanilla ones at the very least), making that role even more obsolete.

In the end, you just tank for DLC dungeons and Arenas, (but for the latter, you absolutely MUST be in a guild, nobody will ever do a PUG trial group with a random tank) Do you think player roles will ever be relevant in PvP or non-dungeon/trial contents? (Because you can run story mode on a naked lvl 3 char so roles aren't really necessary). Maybe by making tanking less of an inconvenience, more players would be inclined to that role?
Or should players just stick to damage builds to keep getting access all of the game's content? (I switched to damage builds to do everything with the same character, and while it works, I'm simply not enjoying it, especially pvp, it doesn't feel right for me to be a damage character, but now I can't go back to tanking because then I won't be able to grind for gladiator proofs I need for the pet lion, or run solo dungeons for weapons for other characters, or random trials because nobody will take tanks in PUGs -but WILL take DPS in PUGs-)

Good post.

I learned a long time ago that this game hates tanks and have made posts very similar to yours in the past. It's in love with DPS, and caters to them wholesale at the expense of everyone else... especially tanks/defensive characters. It also ignores major issues if it effects tanks in a negative way - such as summons or other graphics that completely block a tank's field of view so he or she can't see when to block. This has been a problem forever. But if it's an issue with tanks supposedly being "OP" and actually putting up a good defense and staying alive, they are quick as lightning to nerf it into the ground. Nothing angers the developers more than a tank that can actually defend against other players and their precious DPS.

And as you mention: the solo arenas in particular are a source of horrid game design because they exclude tanks entirely with their silly DPS checks. You probably won't get much support on this board (probably because most of the full time tanks have already quit) but I hear you, don't worry.

FeedbackOnly · November 2021

How about solo content for tanks or healers?

Aliniel · November 2021

ESO has an issue with the power creep. On higher Champion Points and decent gear, people are able to solo normal/vet dungeons easily. This shouldn't be the case imo.

This creates a huge issue with random dungeons. Imagine a person queuing as tank (even though he's full dps spec) and getting into a DLC dungeon which is much more difficult than the vanilla ones. You can kick the fake tank person and wait 15 minutes for the next one. Fake tanks need to be discouraged.

On the other hand, in a normal dungeon tank is completely useless. BUT the random dungeon cannot start without one!
I have a crafting alt which I do occasional random normal dungeon on. He's tank specced with basic abilities (taunt, protection, etc) and some heavy armor. I just run around like a fool while the big boys bring the Unholy Wrath of Oblivion onto the poor mobs. Also, I barely get healed (or need to be healed) even when I tank a boss and do take some damage.

So, in terms of dungeons, the difficulty needs to be modified in a way where tanks are very much needed.
It could be something as simple as getting a buff/debuff (at least for bosses):
* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.

As for the PvP, taunting players? Am I missing something? Is this a thing? Shouldn't be unless it's a form of short cc. Tanks can still be useful though. Run straight in, go to their healers, interrupt them...

mocap · November 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

Tank roles in PvP are completely useless, let's get that out of the way first

it seems only i see small scale premades with players running perma block, then cast Dark Conv + a lot of ults = melting almost any zerg.

PvP tank with S&B permablock + proc set is current small scale meta.

Rowjoh · November 2021

Get creative with your tank !

Tanks generally speaking, have been much less exciting to play than DD's and Healers.

It's always been easy to quickly swap out a defensive monster set for an offensive one, and vice-versa.

But with all the changes to sets etc this year it's now possible to create much more interesting and totally viable hybrid builds that can still effectively tank in most situations but can also do decent damage and in some cases heal as well.

Also there are 18 character slots on offer and it's pretty quick and easy to level a character, so why not create at least 2 or 3 interesting builds for different scenarios ?

R.I.P boring tank builds !

KhajiitLivesMatter · November 2021

Aliniel wrote: »

ESO has an issue with the power creep. On higher Champion Points and decent gear, people are able to solo normal/vet dungeons easily. This shouldn't be the case imo.

This creates a huge issue with random dungeons. Imagine a person queuing as tank (even though he's full dps spec) and getting into a DLC dungeon which is much more difficult than the vanilla ones. You can kick the fake tank person and wait 15 minutes for the next one. Fake tanks need to be discouraged.

On the other hand, in a normal dungeon tank is completely useless. BUT the random dungeon cannot start without one!
I have a crafting alt which I do occasional random normal dungeon on. He's tank specced with basic abilities (taunt, protection, etc) and some heavy armor. I just run around like a fool while the big boys bring the Unholy Wrath of Oblivion onto the poor mobs. Also, I barely get healed (or need to be healed) even when I tank a boss and do take some damage.

So, in terms of dungeons, the difficulty needs to be modified in a way where tanks are very much needed.
It could be something as simple as getting a buff/debuff (at least for bosses):
* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.

As for the PvP, taunting players? Am I missing something? Is this a thing? Shouldn't be unless it's a form of short cc. Tanks can still be useful though. Run straight in, go to their healers, interrupt them...

how do u wanna interupt a healer stun him? most of them have immo and if u come close u get focused
litterly interupt him? no one uses cast abilities

* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.
* something like this wouldnt solve the problem it would garantee tanks are needed for vet hm but for normal dungoens u still dont need a tank

the fake tank "problem" can hardly be fixed - the problem isnt even someone queing as tank and being a dd the problem is why they do it and this simply is 1. dungoens are faster without tank and 2. waiting for a tank takes forever so u would need to propably give the person queues as tank -99% dmg done/-99%healing done AND u would need to somehow get more players to play tank

how to do the 2. thing no idea stuff like better rewards would be unfair(and would lead to people faking roles again) ...

also what would help is a queue where roles dont matter this would filter alot of people faking roles

and to the stuff about pvp tanks there is a set where if u taunt an enemie he deals 35% less dmg but 35% more to u

hafgood · November 2021

If therr was no dps check in a solo arena then literally everyone could complete them, and thatvkind of defeats the point of them. They are designed to be challenging (yes I know once you are high CP normal is pretty easy, but not everyone is high CP) and so taking out dps checks takes away the challenge.

I'd suggest you went out hunting for skyshards and doing content that grants skill points as I've all the skills I need and 87 spare skill points, which would be more than enough to add the skills needed to be a tank as well as a dd.....

SgtWinnie · November 2021

Why do people hate tanks?

Because we are awesome.

It's a jealousy thing.

Uvi_AUT · November 2021

hafgood wrote: »

If therr was no dps check in a solo arena then literally everyone could complete them, and thatvkind of defeats the point of them. They are designed to be challenging (yes I know once you are high CP normal is pretty easy, but not everyone is high CP) and so taking out dps checks takes away the challenge.

I'd suggest you went out hunting for skyshards and doing content that grants skill points as I've all the skills I need and 87 spare skill points, which would be more than enough to add the skills needed to be a tank as well as a dd.....

There need to be seperate Solos for Tanks, DPS and Healers.
WoW did that one perfectly with the Mage Tower Challenge.
Tankchallenge was all about Soaking Hits, taking Damage and pulling stuff around, in other stuff or away from stuff. It was amazingly fun.

Freakin_Hytte · November 2021

drsalvation wrote: »

Or should players just stick to damage builds to keep getting access all of the game's content? (I switched to damage builds to do everything with the same character, and while it works, I'm simply not enjoying it, especially pvp, it doesn't feel right for me to be a damage character, but now I can't go back to tanking because then I won't be able to grind for gladiator proofs I need for the pet lion, or run solo dungeons for weapons for other characters, or random trials because nobody will take tanks in PUGs -but WILL take DPS in PUGs-)

The reason people don't really find tanks useful in PvP is because tanks are useless in pvp, that have been the case in most mmos I've played, forget the word "tank" when it comes to PvP altogether, that's a PvE thing. A "PvE" style tank in PvP is absolutely trash, however a pvp style support can be very good. Your aim can be to be an unkillable buffing machine helping your group, it can be a debuffer or just a very tanky healer. A good support in a PvP group can make your entire group unkillable.

What do you think they should change to solo arenas in order so that tanks are succesful? The only thing I can think of is a mage tower style arena from Wow during Legion and even if it would be awesome, I don't see that coming.

Parasaurolophus · November 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Aliniel wrote: »

ESO has an issue with the power creep. On higher Champion Points and decent gear, people are able to solo normal/vet dungeons easily. This shouldn't be the case imo.

This creates a huge issue with random dungeons. Imagine a person queuing as tank (even though he's full dps spec) and getting into a DLC dungeon which is much more difficult than the vanilla ones. You can kick the fake tank person and wait 15 minutes for the next one. Fake tanks need to be discouraged.

On the other hand, in a normal dungeon tank is completely useless. BUT the random dungeon cannot start without one!
I have a crafting alt which I do occasional random normal dungeon on. He's tank specced with basic abilities (taunt, protection, etc) and some heavy armor. I just run around like a fool while the big boys bring the Unholy Wrath of Oblivion onto the poor mobs. Also, I barely get healed (or need to be healed) even when I tank a boss and do take some damage.

So, in terms of dungeons, the difficulty needs to be modified in a way where tanks are very much needed.
It could be something as simple as getting a buff/debuff (at least for bosses):
* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.

As for the PvP, taunting players? Am I missing something? Is this a thing? Shouldn't be unless it's a form of short cc. Tanks can still be useful though. Run straight in, go to their healers, interrupt them...

how do u wanna interupt a healer stun him? most of them have immo and if u come close u get focused
litterly interupt him? no one uses cast abilities

* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.
* something like this wouldnt solve the problem it would garantee tanks are needed for vet hm but for normal dungoens u still dont need a tank

the fake tank "problem" can hardly be fixed - the problem isnt even someone queing as tank and being a dd the problem is why they do it and this simply is 1. dungoens are faster without tank and 2. waiting for a tank takes forever so u would need to propably give the person queues as tank -99% dmg done/-99%healing done AND u would need to somehow get more players to play tank

how to do the 2. thing no idea stuff like better rewards would be unfair(and would lead to people faking roles again) ...

also what would help is a queue where roles dont matter this would filter alot of people faking roles

and to the stuff about pvp tanks there is a set where if u taunt an enemie he deals 35% less dmg but 35% more to u

Why the idea of buffs is bad:
1) This will hit the rushers that help humans complete the normal dungeon for weaker players.
2) The balance is already set up. If you give buffs, then the players who are already playing their roles in veteran content will become even stronger.
3) What about those players who effectively deal with difficult dungeons without a healer?

KhajiitLivesMatter · November 2021

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Aliniel wrote: »

ESO has an issue with the power creep. On higher Champion Points and decent gear, people are able to solo normal/vet dungeons easily. This shouldn't be the case imo.

This creates a huge issue with random dungeons. Imagine a person queuing as tank (even though he's full dps spec) and getting into a DLC dungeon which is much more difficult than the vanilla ones. You can kick the fake tank person and wait 15 minutes for the next one. Fake tanks need to be discouraged.

On the other hand, in a normal dungeon tank is completely useless. BUT the random dungeon cannot start without one!
I have a crafting alt which I do occasional random normal dungeon on. He's tank specced with basic abilities (taunt, protection, etc) and some heavy armor. I just run around like a fool while the big boys bring the Unholy Wrath of Oblivion onto the poor mobs. Also, I barely get healed (or need to be healed) even when I tank a boss and do take some damage.

So, in terms of dungeons, the difficulty needs to be modified in a way where tanks are very much needed.
It could be something as simple as getting a buff/debuff (at least for bosses):
* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.

As for the PvP, taunting players? Am I missing something? Is this a thing? Shouldn't be unless it's a form of short cc. Tanks can still be useful though. Run straight in, go to their healers, interrupt them...

how do u wanna interupt a healer stun him? most of them have immo and if u come close u get focused
litterly interupt him? no one uses cast abilities

* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.
* something like this wouldnt solve the problem it would garantee tanks are needed for vet hm but for normal dungoens u still dont need a tank

the fake tank "problem" can hardly be fixed - the problem isnt even someone queing as tank and being a dd the problem is why they do it and this simply is 1. dungoens are faster without tank and 2. waiting for a tank takes forever so u would need to propably give the person queues as tank -99% dmg done/-99%healing done AND u would need to somehow get more players to play tank

how to do the 2. thing no idea stuff like better rewards would be unfair(and would lead to people faking roles again) ...

also what would help is a queue where roles dont matter this would filter alot of people faking roles

and to the stuff about pvp tanks there is a set where if u taunt an enemie he deals 35% less dmg but 35% more to u

Why the idea of buffs is bad:
1) This will hit the rushers that help humans complete the normal dungeon for weaker players.
2) The balance is already set up. If you give buffs, then the players who are already playing their roles in veteran content will become even stronger.
3) What about those players who effectively deal with difficult dungeons without a healer?

so i first spoke about giving some classes debuffs
2.i said the problem can hardly be fixed this was just my idea how it could be possible
3. i dont care anyway cause i know zos wont do anything about it and for me it isnt even a problem

KhajiitLivesMatter · November 2021

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

If therr was no dps check in a solo arena then literally everyone could complete them, and thatvkind of defeats the point of them. They are designed to be challenging (yes I know once you are high CP normal is pretty easy, but not everyone is high CP) and so taking out dps checks takes away the challenge.

I'd suggest you went out hunting for skyshards and doing content that grants skill points as I've all the skills I need and 87 spare skill points, which would be more than enough to add the skills needed to be a tank as well as a dd.....

There need to be seperate Solos for Tanks, DPS and Healers.
WoW did that one perfectly with the Mage Tower Challenge.
Tankchallenge was all about Soaking Hits, taking Damage and pulling stuff around, in other stuff or away from stuff. It was amazingly fun.

dont like the idea of that cause more arenas = more rewards = even dds or healer will than maybe need stuff from the tank arena (and even if only sword and board drops there pvper will need it anyway)
and for me its harder to build 16dd chars to tank to do the arena than to build 2 tanks to dd and do mahlstrom(which i acutally did i got flawless on 11 chars inclusive my tanks and healer)

Elo106 · November 2021

In PVE if you can replace the Tank and/or Healer with another DPS you get the dungeon done faster. Thats reason enough to replace them when possible. On harder content Tanks are obviously a must have.

That being said a good tank will stack everything and DPS can focus on damage making stuff go a lot smoother, sadly most tanks dont really stack stuff or start kiting away in a line, having to recast AOEs all the time is annoying af.

In PVP Tanks are just there to waste your time, they wont ever kill you, its like playing against someone who just wants to stall for time and force a draw. Great to build resources and ultimate though

Eshkerigal · November 2021

Personally i don't like tanking mechanics in this game. Taunt spam to keep aggro is bad mechanic. There is no threat mechanic and no aoe taunt. Corner pulls don't work here too.

KhajiitLivesMatter · November 2021

Eshkerigal wrote: »

Personally i don't like tanking mechanics in this game. Taunt spam to keep aggro is bad mechanic. There is no threat mechanic and no aoe taunt. Corner pulls don't work here too.

aoe taunt would just make it easier and honestly taunting 2-3 enemies is not that hard

Troodon80 · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for PVP...there's no real NPCs to taunt. So the traditional PVE tank that taunts bosses doesn't work unless you really spit fire at the enemy team. Imagine yelling "Come at me, bruh!" in whispers!

That being said, tanky builds with high resistances have done extremely well in PVP. So well, in fact, that ZOS thought Hrothgar's Chill was an appropriate countermeasure, and has been adjusting Battle Spirit to match.

Just a clarification on this. While you don't taunt stuff in PvP as you do in PvE, there are (or can be) tank roles in group play. They generally serve a similar role to PvE in that they buff the group or debuff the enemy. Sets like Arkasis, Drake's Rush, Crimson Oath, and Dragon's Defilement serve a purpose in ball groups and other coordinated groups looking to build ultimate fast and output the most burst damage, while, for example, Vanguard's Challenge (along with Harbinger and Malacath's Band, for example) can be nice in smaller groups. But it is group play. Playing "full" tank solo in either PvE or PvP generally isn't considered fun.

Troodon80 · November 2021

Eshkerigal wrote: »

Personally i don't like tanking mechanics in this game. Taunt spam to keep aggro is bad mechanic. There is no threat mechanic and no aoe taunt. Corner pulls don't work here too.

Corner pulls, or what I assume you're referred to as line of sight pulls, generally do work. There are line of sight positions in almost every dungeon. But a caveat to this is that you would either need to taunt absolutely everything or you need your group to be on the same page as you. One of potentially the most common is in Banished Cells I and II (same position in both), up the stairs right before last boss. In Banished Cells I, there are numerous skeletons that can be stacked neatly in a corner. In BC II, you have the Harvesters boss which can be stacked in the same way.

SickDuck · November 2021

I see how tanking is not lucrative to the masses, since being a dps is so much easier most of the times. But there are so many inaccuracies in the OP.

1.) DPS - if you can't change your clothes and skill bar, probably you got bigger problems in this game anyway. Btw that goes to everyone else - a DPS can have secondary gear and jump in as a heal or tank for most but the hardest content. With the current Armoury system being released it is even much better, because you can switch between complete builds (including stats, CP and everything else) with a click of a button. Finally my main can switch to a hardcore tank mid-dungeon, not just to a mediocre one as before. Definitely a QoL improvement and "love" from ZOS.

2.) PvP - see above. No reason to try and play as a PvE tank in PvP. But that doesn't mean you can't create tanky builds in PvP, as mentioned above.

3.) Pug trials are using random tanks, thank you very much. Many are actually looking for them desperately because the lack of them. If you are a tank it is very easy to get into trial or DLC dungeon runs, or just to start one. Getting DDs is never a problem, only challenge could be to get some good healers - but definitely much easier than to get tanks. While many DDs have a decent healer alt the same could not be said for tanks. Mainly because learning tanking is much harder, mistakes are usually fatal, which cannot be said for DDs or even healers. Recent content is also stretching the abilities of tanks, while there is not much middle-ground for tanks to learn and prepare for the big league. Actually that would be my biggest issue with the whole current state. Although it's worth to mention that the current view is that DDs should never sacrifice their damage and rely on tanks to resolve all the dangerous situations (with some support from the healer maybe). Truth is in some overwhelming situations the DDs could very much help the tank to ease the burden and use 1-2 skills for cc or support.

Eshkerigal · November 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

Eshkerigal wrote: »

Personally i don't like tanking mechanics in this game. Taunt spam to keep aggro is bad mechanic. There is no threat mechanic and no aoe taunt. Corner pulls don't work here too.

Corner pulls, or what I assume you're referred to as line of sight pulls, generally do work. There are line of sight positions in almost every dungeon. But a caveat to this is that you would either need to taunt absolutely everything or you need your group to be on the same page as you. One of potentially the most common is in Banished Cells I and II (same position in both), up the stairs right before last boss. In Banished Cells I, there are numerous skeletons that can be stacked neatly in a corner. In BC II, you have the Harvesters boss which can be stacked in the same way.

Many mobs just stuck on small pebbles, and other textures. For example - spindleclutch. Mobs have no idea how to cross that web bridge. When I was leveling skills in skyreach, casters didn't run to me - they waited behind wall, did nothing until I come to their line of sight. So... sometimes corner pulls work, but mostly they don't.

About harvesters on bc II. I know how to stack them... but last time one harvester didn't come to us but she went downsairs (where last boss boss is) and stuck there XD

Aliniel · November 2021

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Aliniel wrote: »

ESO has an issue with the power creep. On higher Champion Points and decent gear, people are able to solo normal/vet dungeons easily. This shouldn't be the case imo.

This creates a huge issue with random dungeons. Imagine a person queuing as tank (even though he's full dps spec) and getting into a DLC dungeon which is much more difficult than the vanilla ones. You can kick the fake tank person and wait 15 minutes for the next one. Fake tanks need to be discouraged.

On the other hand, in a normal dungeon tank is completely useless. BUT the random dungeon cannot start without one!
I have a crafting alt which I do occasional random normal dungeon on. He's tank specced with basic abilities (taunt, protection, etc) and some heavy armor. I just run around like a fool while the big boys bring the Unholy Wrath of Oblivion onto the poor mobs. Also, I barely get healed (or need to be healed) even when I tank a boss and do take some damage.

So, in terms of dungeons, the difficulty needs to be modified in a way where tanks are very much needed.
It could be something as simple as getting a buff/debuff (at least for bosses):
* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.

As for the PvP, taunting players? Am I missing something? Is this a thing? Shouldn't be unless it's a form of short cc. Tanks can still be useful though. Run straight in, go to their healers, interrupt them...

how do u wanna interupt a healer stun him? most of them have immo and if u come close u get focused
litterly interupt him? no one uses cast abilities

* You're a tank: -20% dmg taken.
* You're not a tank: +20% dmg taken.
* something like this wouldnt solve the problem it would garantee tanks are needed for vet hm but for normal dungoens u still dont need a tank

the fake tank "problem" can hardly be fixed - the problem isnt even someone queing as tank and being a dd the problem is why they do it and this simply is 1. dungoens are faster without tank and 2. waiting for a tank takes forever so u would need to propably give the person queues as tank -99% dmg done/-99%healing done AND u would need to somehow get more players to play tank

how to do the 2. thing no idea stuff like better rewards would be unfair(and would lead to people faking roles again) ...

also what would help is a queue where roles dont matter this would filter alot of people faking roles

and to the stuff about pvp tanks there is a set where if u taunt an enemie he deals 35% less dmg but 35% more to u

Why the idea of buffs is bad:
1) This will hit the rushers that help humans complete the normal dungeon for weaker players.
2) The balance is already set up. If you give buffs, then the players who are already playing their roles in veteran content will become even stronger.
3) What about those players who effectively deal with difficult dungeons without a healer?

1) Not everyone want rushers. They can break the experience for some people. New players would like to actually experience the dungeon the way it's meant to be experienced. Not just run around like lost puppies trying to keep up with ever running rushers who care nothing about other people doing quests.

For example, I wanted to replay some vanilla dungeons - read the quests, explore what's going on. There's no way to do this via Dungeon Finder. You're gonna get people rushing things. I ended up watching YouTube videos! How pathetic is that? Instead of playing the game to experience it (a game I have bought, support with ESO+) I have to watch it on YouTube!

(Save yourself comments about joining a guild. Guilds are optional and shouldn't be necessary to play a normal dungeon when there's a dungeon finder.)

But I'm off topic here.

BXR_Lonestar · November 2021

Idk who your talking to but tanks (good ones) are the rockstars of the game, whereas healers are kind of like second class citizens - useful only "when necessary."

In PVP, I can see where people hate them, but that's mainly because tanks could 1vX and be almost impossible to kill, while slowly whittling away at the group to wipe everyone. Not sure if that is still going to be true with the new armor system though.

deleted220614-000183 · November 2021

SgtWinnie wrote: »

Why do people hate tanks?

Because we are awesome.
It's a jealousy thing.

Well , look at it from the server perspective.
The game server likes chars dealing big damage and dying fast because it saves CPU time.
If fight occurs, let it be short whatever side wins.
In PVE it is obvious, players are the winners nearly all the time so why make the fight unnecessary longer.
In PVP if tank could hide/cover healer, DPS player with his own shield (which is reasonable as all historical battles worked like this) it would be maybe historically OK but probably a bit boring and not earning a lot of money.

Just create and keep big formation for hours and smash everything in it's path like Roman legion did.
What about all those crazy PVP monkeys jumping around and pressing 10 keys at once. They would be very unhappy as they would not have any chance as opponents

And as members they would fall asleep after ten seconds in any formation, just taking orders and doing the same thing from the start till the end.

That's why this game has no usage for tanks.