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How does ZOS take feedback?
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GetAgrippa✭✭✭✭✭
✭They take it and throw it in the garbage. Because if they actually took feedback, Dark Convergence would've been deleted from the game. Actually it would've never even made it to live.3 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How does Zos take feedback ???
Why would you ask me this ....
when you know All my responses would get me kicked off the list
2 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos - Community Communication has been one sided for a long time, thats why the forums are infested with the same topics over and over, the general consesus is they dont care and lots of negativity towards Zos.
Most of their mistakes were spotted by vet players on day one (malacath 25%, dark convergence, Op CP stars etc) more communication would have solved lots of issues before they go live, sadly its just us talking and Zos not listening
I've been assured by @ZOS_Kevin that feedback does get listened to but not always responded. I just don't think that's acceptable - particularly on event questions and other time-sensitive inquiries, let alone feedback on heavy changes like class balance. I'm not blaming him or @ZOS_GinaBruno specifically, I'm sure they're trying their absolute hardest - but it goes back to processes and management.
Players ask for things, put in hard work detailing how it could be better for US, and then crickets. There has to be some awareness that that causes frustration and animosity from players. If they can staff the many moderators - who react rather quickly - I don't see why they can't staff people who actively engage the community.
I will say they have gotten better, and it's really appreciated when some things finally get acknowledged. Recently there was acknowledgement that some NPCs are bloody annoying and get in the way of the game. While that feedback was initially directed at a newer NPC, it quickly became a wishlist for all NPCs that border on nagware. Those complaints are years old - case in point Stuga - and it takes them how many years to adjust an NPC? I only hope the feedback gets internalized on some of the design decisions that snowball into players complaining.
There needs to be better feedback that's visible to the player community and they need to react sooner. I'm grateful for the hardwork these guys and I'm happy with how much this game has improved over the years. I just can't help but feel it should've happened sooner. I say that not knowing the technological constraints - but again that comes down to communication from ZOS. So many other games have very visible processes, I would think that they'd want that same goodwill from the community that other games enjoy.As far as ESO goes, I think the purpose of the PTS is for bug-catching, not for player-driven game design or change. At least, this has been my observation from watching, listening, and doing some direct community surveys.
Honestly, while it can be used for bug testing, I think it is to see how players respond and to tune. Four weeks is hardly enough time to confirm every bug report and fix it. Only the top bugs, reported early, even have a chance. I figure that it is at least 2 weeks to fix an easy bug found on PTS, and that is for the top bugs. The next lower priority bugs are probablly 4-8 weeks out, and everything else is at least 2 months away.
If a player wants any chance of feedback being considered, the time to mention it is day 1 of PTS. The concrete harden fast.
One thing that ZOS could do is drop the whole "never say never" thing and make it clear when something is nnot going to happen. This will make some people angry, others happy, and will put a period at the end of the sentence. Much better than the "maybe?".
Even with PTS it doesn't always get considered. Case in point, the whole new tutorial that came out. A lot of people stated how it doesn't meet their needs and that it fundamentally missed the point. Nothing changed. They stuck with their vision.
This pretty much sums everything up. The issue is not them not giving players what they want but remaining silent when people ask questions about it. To give some examples of good and bad communication:
During the login issues last week, many people asked if the event could be extended and ZOS_Kevin responded in minutes that he'd ask about. A nice prompt response like that makes players feel like they're being listened to, even if the answer is ultimately no.
This patch Ravenwatch wasn't implemented on the PTS, which means players who play No-Proc can't test sets and skills in Cyrodiil. ZOS employees were pinged several times on the thread but didn't once respond. How long would a response of "We'll look into it" or "I know this disappoints people but this was an intentional decision, sorry" have taken to write out?
Another issue I think is that ZOS appears insecure in their decisions, which gives an impression that the game has no direction. For instance consider the DC issue. If, after reading the feedback on PTS ZOS had said "We know there are some issues but we still want to give it a go." I personally would have given them a bit more credit, because at least they seem confident in their decisions even if it didn't ultimately work out.Edited by neferpitou73 on October 28, 2021 11:18PM8 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anything anyone official says is instantly read into, read between the lines of, projected personal wishes on, taken out of context and used for threatened lawsuits.
Or just death threats on Twitter.
If I was a dev, I wouldn't be caught dead trying to talk to "the playerbase" on forums.5 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Anything anyone official says is instantly read into, read between the lines of, projected personal wishes on, taken out of context and used for threatened lawsuits.
Or just death threats on Twitter.
If I was a dev, I wouldn't be caught dead trying to talk to "the playerbase" on forums.
Have to agree....4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Anything anyone official says is instantly read into, read between the lines of, projected personal wishes on, taken out of context and used for threatened lawsuits.
Or just death threats on Twitter.
If I was a dev, I wouldn't be caught dead trying to talk to "the playerbase" on forums.
This is why ZOS needs to hire someone to do this. Someone who has the classic Timex personality. Expecting ZOS_Kevin to do this by himself isn't healthy.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus6 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭About a year and a half ago a ZOS employee was doing a Q&A on a Twitch streamers stream when the question about feedback came up. To paraphrase the response he considers it nothing more than a bunch of whining and ignores player comments/feedback as he didn't care what they have to say. I think this is well reflected in the game with its history of less than stellar development choices and lack of resolution of long standing problems.8 -
dinokstrunz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah ZoS has a bad history of not handling criticism very well. From straight up censoring, blocking individuals and deleting posts for even the most well constructive feedback.10 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the developers of any game should know their game and with that have a vision for it. While they should not ignore player feedback they need to balance that feedback with what is good for the game and works with their vision as well as what is cost-effective.
In that, it is clear Zenimax does listen to player feedback and work with it. There are a number of examples where it is extremely clear that Zenimax changed things as a direct result of player feedback. Of course, this does not mean they made changes based on all or even most feedback and that may be a good thing overall.
Of course, we have seen other games make massive changes that essentially destroyed the game as we knew it (SWG) which is because of some lost sight of the vision for the game. Ofc, that seems to be marketing people but it still drivers home a point.0 -
Xandreia_✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip]
Seriously though, as far as the pvp community goes, no feedback is ever taken, dark convergence would be gone, lag would be fixed, pvp and pve would be separated via the correct use of the battle spirit passive you get in pvp, things would be balanced and the game would be perfect, but instead the combat team who don't even play their own game, make decisions based on the words of casuals
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 29, 2021 12:42PM1 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Anything anyone official says is instantly read into, read between the lines of, projected personal wishes on, taken out of context and used for threatened lawsuits.
Or just death threats on Twitter.
If I was a dev, I wouldn't be caught dead trying to talk to "the playerbase" on forums.
Is there a history of devs receiving death threats? I personally find this narrative of "devs fear the feedback because it hurts their feelings" quite hard to believe.
If this were true this is a glaring red flag from a management perspective as it demonstrates:
1. Lack of value for customer feedback
2. Intentionally ignoring third party opinions and relying on groupthink
3. Decisions made in an echo chamber without a major stakeholder present (the player)
I doubt people will be able to make death threats, lawsuit claims or any of the ridiculous excuses in this thread, on the forums. We have an invitation based sign up system and very zealous moderation. I find this premise to be a poor argument absolving ZOS of any professional responsibility to the paying customer.4 -
For me everything depends on trust.
ZOS should consider consequences of their actions as trust is hard to obtain and easy to lose.
It was not long ago when all PC/EU megaserver crashed.
ZOS was silent at first and then come out with announcement that "SOME" of the players may experience difficulties when logging in the game.
Well, if you have 90 friends online on discord and all 90 confirms you, that they were kicked and now are on log in screen of the game, it feels a bit ... totalitarian ?
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Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭On one hand i can understand them. [snip] Reasonable posts are few, and those with reasonable discussions or ideas that most of people agreed upon, are even fewer. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 29, 2021 12:45PM0 -
DinoZavr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Adding a monthly AMA with devs to the official forums or Reddit could improve the company's image.PC EU4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is there a history of devs receiving death threats? I personally find this narrative of "devs fear the feedback because it hurts their feelings" quite hard to believe.
The internet is only full of happy, well adjusted, people, right?
Yeah, the "death threat" thing pops up from time to time in social media when some game dev posts about it. I think it is more common to just harass the developers to the point where it is just stressful, though.I doubt people will be able to make death threats [...] on the forums.
They could, and someone probably already has. It would not last long, though.Adding a monthly AMA with devs to the official forums or Reddit could improve the company's image.
A monthly AMA? Probably not. ZOS would get the reputation of holding AMAs, then not answering any questions. People would ask questions that ZOS won't answer. Remember that they already learned the hard way to not talk about status updates, or content and changes beyond the Update that is on PTS. We can't have nice things because of the people who would show up and then complain about the AMA.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
BomblePants✭✭✭✭✭
✭But… they do listen. We have many things we asked for over the years. As for communication it hasn’t always been so bad but certainly it became much less over the years as some of the players on the forums became argumentative and petty…
You cannot possibly please all of the people all of the time… but that doesn’t mean they never listen…0 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Here's an illustration:
"Normal" Company
Customers: <Opinion>
Company: "Thank you for your feedback, we will be sure to pass it along. While we cannot promise any particular change, know that we're always striving to make the best product possible and value our customers!"
"ZoS"
Customers: <Opinion>
Company: <Remains Silent>
So, them following the forums, saying they follow the forums, and actually implementing some things the forums wanted that fit their plans for the game doesn't mean anything? Even when they do things people asked for, if it isn't the exact implementation the person envisioned, there are rants, demands, and outrage because they listened to the WRONG people. Even a boilerplate statement like the one above could be taken the wrong way by someone.
What does 'silence' say then?
ZoS_Kevin really helps the company's image a ton by engaging the community even when he can't make promises. More of that please.
Silence can say "more than once actual physical violence was threatened against a dev and his wife because some "wonderful" person read their own meaning into a casual statement, and when the suggestion wasn't followed rather graphic threats of what would happen to the dev and family followed" so no one is stupid enough to engage with the possibly unbalanced public. That's besides the lawsuits that are threatened when things change. It's nice that ZOS Kevin does interact when he can. Problems may occur however if people expect him to, and he can't for legal reasons.0 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »many years ago i was the father of small children. one of their complaints was that i never listened to them. years later the issue surfaced and i was asked to explain why i never listened to them.
my response was.... i always listened to you but never acted on anything i heard because it was childish and dumb.
You were too busy playing mmo/rpgs, perhaps?
On another note; I think ESO changes/directions are mostly based off trends/past success statistics and conferences the industry has internally.
Edited by Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo on October 29, 2021 12:47PM0 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Devs: "We've been thinking about implementing this possibly at some point in the future."
Portion of playerbase: 'YAY!!!! FEATURE WE'VE BEEN YELLING ABOUT IS COMING WITH THE NEXT UPDATE!!!!!!
Next update arrives without feature X. Because they never said it was ever going to happen, let alone in the next update.
Portion of the playerbase: "TEH DEVS LIED. THEY NEVER LISTEN OR FOLLOW THROUGH.THEY HATE THE PLAYERS AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THE $$$$$$"
Anything anyone official says is instantly read into, read between the lines of, projected personal wishes on, taken out of context and used for threatened lawsuits. If the devs ever took and implemented suggestions from players, there would be instant lawsuits over copyright, demands for payment and all the rest of the happy bs people get up to now. Everyone, including the community mods, are far safer acknowledging ideas, passing on the ones that aren't too ridiculous, and leaving it at that. "We heard you. It may or may not be a good idea. Nothing may ever be done about it. But we did hear you."
So, ZOS doesn't interact with forums because they are scared of players suing them for copyright for any ideas they implement?
Lawsuits wouldn't go too far ... they own everything we say on the forums. We signed ToS.
When has that stopped anyone from threatening and filing a lawsuit? Someone made a thread about how people should file a class action lawsuit because Morrowind wasn't free for subscribers. Someone else wanted to sue because bots and gold spammers when the game was new. People wanted to sue when One Tamriel happened, and they wanted a refund for their sub. People want to sue because of maintenance time "loss of service". Logic and actual reasoning doesn't always exist for some people.4 -
Well you can believe "death threat" explanation or not. The USA country is sick enough but politics asside.
I personally don't buy this explanation.
When all European megaserver players experienced crash and it was down for many hours, you expected some voice from ZOS like this:
"Hey guys, we [snip] up the new update and our HW is broken beyond repair, give us 8 hours to repair it, sorry"
[snip]
So they are afraid to tel us the true and we feel frustrated, it is lose-lose scenario for all of us.
[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 29, 2021 1:23PM1 -
JJOtterBear✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Listening to the playerbase doesn't mean giving them everything they ask for.
exactly. sometimes listening just means listening. it doesn't necessarily mean taking action.4 -
prof-dracko✭✭✭✭✭It's a really irritating but all too common scenario when I see a topic on the forums that might impact me in some way, notice a green ZOS box next to it indicating a moderator comment and go to see what they might have to say on the issue only for it to be a generic "deleted response", "stay on topic" style comment. They need a new indicator that they've actually contributed something to the discussion instead of piquing interest with no result.4 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭prof-dracko wrote: »It's a really irritating but all too common scenario when I see a topic on the forums that might impact me in some way, notice a green ZOS box next to it indicating a moderator comment and go to see what they might have to say on the issue only for it to be a generic "deleted response", "stay on topic" style comment. They need a new indicator that they've actually contributed something to the discussion instead of piquing interest with no result.
Oh yeah this has been requested many times. @ZOS_Kevin Is this possible?0 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »On one hand i can understand them. [snip] Reasonable posts are few, and those with reasonable discussions or ideas that most of people agreed upon, are even fewer. [snip]
[edited for baiting]
Come again?0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS devs don't participate actively in the forums either. All I see are moderators who snip offending comments, etc.
[...]
So whose feedback does ZOS actually consider? It seems to me that the root of ZOS' problems lies in the lack of a transparent feedback and response system.
There is no reason to do this because it would just result in more work with no gain.
The first thing you have to understand here is that "the Devs" dont exist. Like every other company there are departments and individual ppl that are responsible for certain aspects of the product and there is a workflow how ideas, changes and bugs are collected and ranked. You always end up with more work than you are able to do so you have to rank things based on time requirements and workforce available and you also want everyone to work in their time as efficient as possible. The QoL ideas of players alone would be enought to fill months of patches.
With that in mind rethink your idea. Currently you have no official respond that is not a community manager. If other officials would respond it would take time off their work time to read and respond, but it would also open up additional problems. Instead of complaining that noone respons ppl would start complaining why they dont got a response, but others did. They would also start to flood these accounts with pms asking all kinds of stuff, which would just increase the overhead. There would be no gain here, just more frustration. You have to keep in mind that many topics have players with contradicting optinions or details.
The same goes for a transparent feedback system. What would you expect here? Insights into internal ticket systems? What would be the gain and the expectation.
You might not like the current way stuff is handled, but it assures that workflows are working and stuff gets done.2 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS devs don't participate actively in the forums either. All I see are moderators who snip offending comments, etc.
[...]
So whose feedback does ZOS actually consider? It seems to me that the root of ZOS' problems lies in the lack of a transparent feedback and response system.
There is no reason to do this because it would just result in more work with no gain.
The first thing you have to understand here is that "the Devs" dont exist. Like every other company there are departments and individual ppl that are responsible for certain aspects of the product and there is a workflow how ideas, changes and bugs are collected and ranked. You always end up with more work than you are able to do so you have to rank things based on time requirements and workforce available and you also want everyone to work in their time as efficient as possible. The QoL ideas of players alone would be enought to fill months of patches.
With that in mind rethink your idea. Currently you have no official respond that is not a community manager. If other officials would respond it would take time off their work time to read and respond, but it would also open up additional problems. Instead of complaining that noone respons ppl would start complaining why they dont got a response, but others did. They would also start to flood these accounts with pms asking all kinds of stuff, which would just increase the overhead. There would be no gain here, just more frustration. You have to keep in mind that many topics have players with contradicting optinions or details.
The same goes for a transparent feedback system. What would you expect here? Insights into internal ticket systems? What would be the gain and the expectation.
You might not like the current way stuff is handled, but it assures that workflows are working and stuff gets done.
I'd just like to someone like @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_GinaBruno to give us an overview of the feedback process so we can all decide if these forums are even worth our time.0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »How does Zos take feedback?
Maybe with a grain of salt?
^ yup, nail on the head there.0 -
Tigertron✭✭✭✭I’d rather have devs working on the job they were hired to do than chit chatting on forums with wannabe developers.
My guess is there are probably not allowed to anyway by policy. When you are working on something that is internal and may or may not ever see the light of day it’s easy to accidentally say something and not be able to take it back.4 -
I’d rather have devs working on the job they were hired to do than chit chatting on forums with wannabe developers.
My guess is there are probably not allowed to anyway by policy. When you are working on something that is internal and may or may not ever see the light of day it’s easy to accidentally say something and not be able to take it back.
Policy here is strict no doubts about it.
If you think that devs could accidentaly leak source code of the server side of the game, company finance or strategy or some industrial secrets on this forum accidentally ... I don't believe it is the case .
IMHO people redacting forum are hardly developers or HW engineers or people from the company management as they are valuable assets for the company and they will hardly waste their time here on the forum.
But if you ever worked for any big international company you probably know what means non disclosure agreement.
For example if some ZOS moderator on this forum knows about upcoming ESO+ trial and leaks this information accidentaly and prematuraly on this forum, it could postpone ESO+ subscribtions of many players and cause substantial financial damage for the company and the particular person could be held responsible I suppose.
It is just an example.
So yes, policy is strict. For me as a player it feels like an obstacle in communication as the only reaction here is like
snip, redacted, edited ...
0