Please answer honestly

XiokroDarc · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

moleculardrugs wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

But the mystery could reveal actually more questions than answers, adding to the lore and to TES universe

No not really. If it said for a fact that of what happened to the dwemer, it would ruin every other theory that goes against the 'canon' of it. Some mysteries are meant to be left unsolved. For example, if we discovered 100% that the Garden of Eden was on earth for a fact, and say was submerged underneath the Persian Gulf due to the great flood, it would start to deny anything that went against that theory. It may open up *some* questions, but there are a lot more without the question being answered. (I'm not religious I just brought that up as an example)

XiokroDarc · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Urvoth wrote: »

So speculating is better than story telling and ignorance > knowledge for you? Why even care about the lore at all if it's just "imagination" or hypothesis? You can have quality stories with room for interpretation, you know. Would you really like a lazy "oh they disappeared" explanation over some epic quest chain or discovery process with actual implications and significance?

Given that me and my other friends in real life have sat down for HOURS speculating the lore of the elder scrolls KNOWING that there is no 'true answer' because if it isn't in the game it doesn't exist. We still talk about it and theorize about them TO THIS DAY, to some people, we like to PRETEND that this is a real universe and not some game and therefore there is knowledge out there that we don't know of just makes the whole universe more realistic to us. Despite it still being fantasy game.

Now I'm not against opening up new theories on how they disappeared by adding delves in say hammerfell that can elude to more possibilities to be brought up, but they should never state how it's was done.

Call_of_Red_Mountain · October 2021

Yes we need to know where are they!!!

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes... I want to know. Just me. Not the rest of you. I promise not to tell.

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

ZeroDPS wrote: »

As we all know Dwemers disappeared long ago and NOBODY knows why and how. So do you really want to know how they disappeared, what was the cause. Who wiped them, or maybe they still alive(in which I strongly believe).

So do you guys want to know this in upcoming chapters?

ZOS was going to explore the dwemer but they were told not to by executives over at parent company

I don't know if it was exactly like that, but yes, Dwemer is off the table. Scuttlebutt says that Todd Howard knows and won't tell anyone.

I hope they'll show us one day. In TES.

But... Aedra artifacts (hey, Lorhan's Heart) and mortals = big baraboom. Dwemers was too greedy and denied divines powers. And Tribunal liars... their story... well, you know how it ended.

Vylaera · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

VaranisArano wrote: »

Only if you accept that making a reference to C0DA canonized the entire work.

It did. C0DA is now part of the lore of the universe. A possible end to the timeline that will most likely be avoided. The lore therein is part of the lore of the universe, and we have an answer for what happened to the Dwemer.

VaranisArano wrote: »

See also "The Many-headed Talos." Heimskr quotes part of it in Skyrim.

Then obviously that lore exists in-universe for him to find it, learn it, and preach it. Him being perceived as a crazy priest adds to the fact that it is esoteric knowledge that no one knows about, which is why we aren't tripping over it everywhere else and only have the one character who talks about it. It's not good worldbuilding for everyone to have encyclopedic knowledge of the most obscure lore. There really only should be one or two sources in the entire series that reveals it for it to actually be believable from an observer's beyond-the-fourth-wall point of view. Ask a religious Jewish person how much they know about Simon bar Kokhba and you'll see this exact concept in real life. This example isn't nearly as esoteric, but it's in the same vein that Bar Kokhba's revolt probably isn't taught often in Synagogue. But I'm Catholic so I don't have firsthand experience.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I say that the part that Heimskr quotes in-game is Canon. The parts he doesn't are not. If Bethesda wanted the other parts to be Canon, they could've included them. They didn't.

By your apparent standards, by quoting some of it, Bethesda canonized all of the Many Headed Talos.

Yes, they did.
If the part of the text he quotes exists in the universe for him to find, then that means the rest of the text is also in the universe. Why does Heimskr need to quote the entire text for it to all be canon? When a priest in real life reads from the Bible, is only the verse He's reading canon? Of course not, there's the entire rest of the book plus the Apocrypha and the Catechism which instructs accurate interpretation. He doesn't need to read every page every service for us to know the rest of the text exists nor does he need to remind everyone the Apocryphal texts exist every service or that his understanding of these are informed by the Catechism. It goes without saying.

VaranisArano wrote: »

it's only a reference.

Did you read it? It's a plot summary of the story of C0DA like if Sparknotes was worded incomprehensibly in faux esoteric language that you would only understand if you've already read and understood the text the webpage covers. In any case, how does a story from the 5th era about people with television heads and the Numidium being defeated and genderbent Vivec marrying an Incarnate and lorkhan getting his heart back and Akavir being birthed as a new Dream make its way into a game any other way than a reference from Vivec?

VaranisArano wrote: »

The substance of C0DA is not yet included in the actual games.

Probably because it's a graphic novel that takes place in the 5th Era. We haven't seen the events of Infernal City in a game before, and I don't believe it's ever actually been referenced in a game yet unless there's something in Legends. So there's more in-game validity for C0DA being canon than Infernal City, by that standard.

And for the record, I'm not even keen on C0DA or Kirkbride. I think a lot of C0DA was unnecessary and it almost feels like a different universe. But it's canon, and I'm not going to pretend it isn't because there's some things I don't like about it, and I'm not going to pretend that Kirkbride's writings aren't canon because I don't like him.

Hymzir · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Raideen wrote: »

I for one would like to see them have a larger footprint in game. I crave truth more than mystery, so none of that means anything to me. In fact I think people arguing about the events of something 60 years from now is pointless because the lore was never created in the first place. The "answer" to the dwemer question in truth is "the lore was never created", so any and all speculation is just that, player speculation, which is not cannon which holds no water. I find this neither exciting, nor interesting, nor mysterious.

You are quite right in your assessment - there is no answer to the Dwemer mystery and there never was. It was never created, it wasn't part of the design. All the statements about their disappearance over the years are just speculations. Nothing concrete has been stated about the issue.

However, the conclusion you draw from it is incorrect. At least in my mind. I mean, there is no real answer to whether or not the mystery should be solved or not. There is a large personal subjective slant on the topic. Some will most certainly like it more if there was a definite answer to it. Others will not.

But if we think about it, the fact of the matter is, that ultimately it cannot be answered, for the very reason that there never was an answer for it. It was never established, and the people who came up with it have long since left the company. Therefore, any "official" answer, that a future game might present, will be in essence just another "fan" theory.

Despite having an official seal, it would be just as much of a conjecture and interpretation of "facts" established in previous games, as are any of the theories, that the fandom has created, that are floating about the internet. I highly doubt there being a secret folder in a safe down at Beth headquarters holding the truth about their fate. If there was, someone would've leaked it by now.

I mean, I suppose it's possible, that someone could come up with an explanation that was truly good enough to be elevated to the status of "the official answer", but I doubt it. And I think the people at Beth, and ZOS as well, realize this. The mystery is worth more to them as a mystery. They can use their favorite trope of the unreliable narrator to add in stuff and ideas about the issue, and never commit to a single interpretation. Gives them much more creative space to work around, and it gives the IP a distinct and marketable identity.

As others have noted, Beth has stated in the past, that the Dwemer question will never be answered. The mystery itself is part of the product identity for Elder Scrolls. Interpretations on how the Dwemer looked, what their cities and creations looked like, and what people in universe wrote about them or think about their disappearance can change as needed by the needs of the current game in production. Exploring the issue, without saying anything absolute about it, will help to enhance the overall appeal of the IP. Answering a question, that never had any real answer, with whatever fan theory the current devs happen to lean towards, will just end up diminishing the overall value of their creation and restricting their future options.

And answering it would cause a fracture in their customer base. Some would accept any "official" answer, regardless on how lame it was. Others would reject it in favor of their own pet theory, even if the official one was pure genius.Answering the question would lead to a disgruntled customer base and factional feuding, and that really is not good for business.

Hence it should never be answered, and why it probably will never be answered. However, if they do... Well, that is the point you know that they've truly ran out of ideas.

I mean, if it makes money...that is the real end goal, is it not?

Yeah, and leaving the question unanswered generates more money in the long run. It makes their IP more distinct and it drives discussion and interest about the game and its lore. It also means, that cramming the Dwemer into every game they ship, is a priority for them. Just like like Super Mutants and Brotherhood of Steel have to be in every Fallout game for it feel like a Fallout game, so too must the mystery of the disappearance of the Dwemer, and their empty halls full of mechanical men, be present in every TES game moving forward for it to feel like a proper TES game.

If Oblivion was made now, and not when it was almost 20 years ago, back when the product identity of TES was still in formative phase, I bet you they would add some Dwemer ruins in the mountains east of Cheydinhal just have some Dwemer ruins in Oblivion. Regardless of whether their presence in Cyrodiil made any sense or not.

If TES 6 takes place in parts of Hammerfell, as is generally believed, there is gonna be ton of new details introduced about them, and lot of new Dwemer stuff to discover. And along with all that new stuff, there will be plenty of new theories about their disappearance.

Even if the game took place in the south, where there are no Dwemer strongholds, I bet they would find a way to include some anyway. A lost colony on an island or something. They'd have to retcon the hell out of things, but not as if that has stopped them before. In fact am genuinely quite surprised that Blades doesn't seem to feature any Dwemer ruins. It does make sense from lore perspective, and it does run on a much more limited system, so I guess omitting them makes sense. But a mainline game going forward with no Dwemer ruins? I find that quite unlikely. At the very least, they would add in a DLC prominently featuring Dwemer dungeons. 'Cause you know... Dwemer stuff makes plenty of money, and they really like money.

But a definite answer to the mystery of their disappearance... Yeah, wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

etchedpixels · October 2021

Yes we need to know where are they!!!

It would be interesting to see an actual "Dwemerfall" game as it's trivial to build such a game into the lore and make it fit the standard ESO trope machine. but I can see why they never will.

It's not hard to imagine how to make it into an ESO game

Trope 1: moral tale around daedric prince and lust for something causing downfall - Dwemer want to steal from apochrypha, Sheo sets them up because it'll be "funny" and they steal forbidden soul gem knowledge
Trope 2: end of world - evil dwemer plot to build a giant soul gem and suck in all non dwemer souls to power their machine)
Trope 3: player starts locked in a cell having discovered hints of the plot, saves the world, warps the soul gem, all the dwemer get sucked in instead and Hermaeus won't let them back out until everyone of them agrees to give up the forbidden knowledge - ie never)

Oh and a quest to rescue someones lost dog.

Jamdarius · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Most probably they just ceased to exist due to failing to achieve CHIM after trying to use Heart of Lorkhan to create Numidium and make Dwemer race immortal, they simply disappeared because of that. 1 Dwemer survived because he was visiting some kind of Outer Realm (my guess is it could be outside of Aetherius) to which the power affecting entire Dwemer race could not reach him.

Or you know, do not tamper with things you do not fully understand or you will turn into ash and become a summonable shade like Arniel Gane from College in Winterhold during TES V Skyrim.

newtinmpls · October 2021

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Sometimes the mystery is better than actually knowing all of the details of what happened. It promotes thought, speculation, and theory crafting. The key part of the story we know, the dwemer made a discovery and all but one disappeared from nirn. Leaving all of their constructs behind. That's all that we really need for much of the overall stories so far in Tamriel.

Not to mention that leaving gaps in the lore and history of Tamriel is convenient for future games. Look how the Interregum (a gap in the lore) was used to implement the setting of ESO. If everything is explained now then what is there to explore in future tales? Do we really want to have to deal with more drastic retconing? Or a reset of the cannon lore?

I agree. One of the great things about Morrowind (the TES III, not the ESO chapter) was that there were many things that were unexplained or contradictory.

Personally I think that the Dwemer found a way to collectively pass beyond the ancestral event horizon (and a tip of the hat to anyone who watched the original Babylon 5).

LonePirate · October 2021

Yes we need to know where are they!!!

Wasn't this somewhat explained or strongly hinted at during the quest line for the Nchuthnkarst public dungeon in Blackreach?

Dean340 · October 2021

Yes we need to know where are they!!!

etchedpixels wrote: »

Oh and a quest to rescue someones lost dog.

and a quest to kill 10 rats

Alpharos7 · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Whilst I word love to see a dwemer automaton inspired chapter, I really don't want the dwemer mystery solved. I would have no issue with a future chapter skirting around the mystery like they did in Skyrim, without tackling it head on.

Nanfoodle · October 2021

Yes we need to know where are they!!!

This is something I have always wanted to know but I am also a huge fan of Dwarves. So I am bias. Could of ways to go with this, they are dead and gone and what made the flee or kill them off comes back to get the rest of us.

Other option is a small or large population of Dwarves come back with untold power to recapture power. Small faction of Dwarves break off to help us and share they knowledge and power to save us. So opened new skill lines or classes with said expansion.

TwiceBornStar · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Sotha Sil, Vivec and Almalexia totally know what happened to the Dwemer, but nobody wants to listen to what an Ashlander has to say!

Living Gods my butt!

Supreme_Atromancer · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Are the people who think that Dwemer automata just means mechanical reskins of regular animals to pump through the crown store the right people to handle something as sacred and iconic to the lore as the disappearance of the Dwemer?

MerguezMan · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

Nanfoodle wrote: »

This is something I have always wanted to know but I am also a huge fan of Dwarves. So I am bias. Could of ways to go with this, they are dead and gone and what made the flee or kill them off comes back to get the rest of us.

Other option is a small or large population of Dwarves come back with untold power to recapture power. Small faction of Dwarves break off to help us and share they knowledge and power to save us. So opened new skill lines or classes with said expansion.

Sorry but this is complete nonsense regarding the lore.

- The Dwemer instantly disappeared at the use of Kargenac's tools on the heart of Lorkhan.
- Also take note the Dwemer were kind of thelepathically connected to each other, which is not the case of other races
- Kagrenac's tools then came into the hands of the ALMSIVI Tribunal, which used them to get godlike powers.
- Azura cursed the dark elves for that.
- The heart of Lorkhan is still in Vvardenfell's red mountain.

The thing that made the Dwemer gone cannot "return", it's already on Nirn. The conditions that allowed Dwemer race to vanish cannot be reproduced. On top of that, one would have to face the Tribunal (and Dagoth Ur, and probably daedras too) to get the tools of Kagrenac, and use them on the heart of Lorkhan.

Assuming some Dwemer survived the thing, they wouldn't return before at least 3E427, when Yagrum Bagarn - the last living known Dwemer - tells you he found nothing. Let's consider Dwemer return, they'd be imbued with godlike powers just like the Tribunal, and would all instantly know that one of them turned against the group, because thelepathy... which sounds quite lame for a plot.

So, unless writers completely negate TES 3 and Dwemer lore, it makes no sense to have such plot.

VaranisArano · October 2021

BroughBreaux wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Only if you accept that making a reference to C0DA canonized the entire work.

It did. C0DA is now part of the lore of the universe. A possible end to the timeline that will most likely be avoided. The lore therein is part of the lore of the universe, and we have an answer for what happened to the Dwemer.

VaranisArano wrote: »

See also "The Many-headed Talos." Heimskr quotes part of it in Skyrim.

Then obviously that lore exists in-universe for him to find it, learn it, and preach it. Him being perceived as a crazy priest adds to the fact that it is esoteric knowledge that no one knows about, which is why we aren't tripping over it everywhere else and only have the one character who talks about it. It's not good worldbuilding for everyone to have encyclopedic knowledge of the most obscure lore. There really only should be one or two sources in the entire series that reveals it for it to actually be believable from an observer's beyond-the-fourth-wall point of view. Ask a religious Jewish person how much they know about Simon bar Kokhba and you'll see this exact concept in real life. This example isn't nearly as esoteric, but it's in the same vein that Bar Kokhba's revolt probably isn't taught often in Synagogue. But I'm Catholic so I don't have firsthand experience.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I say that the part that Heimskr quotes in-game is Canon. The parts he doesn't are not. If Bethesda wanted the other parts to be Canon, they could've included them. They didn't.

By your apparent standards, by quoting some of it, Bethesda canonized all of the Many Headed Talos.

Yes, they did.
If the part of the text he quotes exists in the universe for him to find, then that means the rest of the text is also in the universe. Why does Heimskr need to quote the entire text for it to all be canon? When a priest in real life reads from the Bible, is only the verse He's reading canon? Of course not, there's the entire rest of the book plus the Apocrypha and the Catechism which instructs accurate interpretation. He doesn't need to read every page every service for us to know the rest of the text exists nor does he need to remind everyone the Apocryphal texts exist every service or that his understanding of these are informed by the Catechism. It goes without saying.

VaranisArano wrote: »

it's only a reference.

Did you read it? It's a plot summary of the story of C0DA like if Sparknotes was worded incomprehensibly in faux esoteric language that you would only understand if you've already read and understood the text the webpage covers. In any case, how does a story from the 5th era about people with television heads and the Numidium being defeated and genderbent Vivec marrying an Incarnate and lorkhan getting his heart back and Akavir being birthed as a new Dream make its way into a game any other way than a reference from Vivec?

VaranisArano wrote: »

The substance of C0DA is not yet included in the actual games.

Probably because it's a graphic novel that takes place in the 5th Era. We haven't seen the events of Infernal City in a game before, and I don't believe it's ever actually been referenced in a game yet unless there's something in Legends. So there's more in-game validity for C0DA being canon than Infernal City, by that standard.

And for the record, I'm not even keen on C0DA or Kirkbride. I think a lot of C0DA was unnecessary and it almost feels like a different universe. But it's canon, and I'm not going to pretend it isn't because there's some things I don't like about it, and I'm not going to pretend that Kirkbride's writings aren't canon because I don't like him.

While I don't ever expect to convince someone with different ideas of how they interpret "canon", I will stand by that neither Bethesda nor Zenimax have locked themselves into C0da's statement, or any of Kirkbride's other references to what happened to the Dwemer.

Certainly, if it weren't expected to be a mystery still, they could just point to it and say, "Look, a former writer for us already told you what happened." That's basically what the "Kirkbride said what happened to the Dwemer" argument amounts to, but notably, it's fans making that argument. Not the people who actually own the IP.

And I think it's kinda funny that, in a world of unreliable narrators, so many fans assume that Vivec's sermons contain the complete truth. So what if Vivec summarizes c0da in sermon form for ESO? So what if he tells people to go read it? He's a liar who helped found the Tribunal faith based on lying to the Dunmer people about the source of his powers. It sure would be handy for Vivec if C0da were canon in entirety, since it mostly works out for him in the end, as opposed to being a washed-up former God who's lies and delusions of grandeur eventually wrecked Morrowind...

(I like Kirkbride's writings more than I used to, but boy is Vivec ever a villain with good publicity!)

On The Infernal City/Lord of Souls

As for "The Infernal City", you couldn't be more wrong about the lore it established having no references. It works out a fair bit of the early 4th Era that shows up later in Skyrim, including the Penitus Oculatus, the Medes, the invasion of Morrowind by the Saxheel, and the dissolution and replacement of the Mages Guild with the Synod and College of Whispers. There's a reference to the flying Umbriel in Ysolda's Sleeping Tree Sap dialogue, "I've also heard that it was a spore that fell from an island floating in the sky, but that just sounds like nonsense."

Plus there's a ton of lore that we've seen in other works including ESO. Stuff like "Xuth" being an argonian swear word. Consider this description of Elsweyr's landscape: “Earlier that day the short-grass prairie had abruptly dropped off into one of the strangest landscapes Attrebus had ever seen. It looked as if a massive flood had stripped everything away but the dirt, and then cut that up into a labyrinth of arroyos and gullies. ...vibrant rust, umber, olive and yellow strata of the soil were exposed."

That sounds a lot like what we see in certain areas of Northern Elsweyr! If you want a list of lore from the books that may or may not have been used in other works: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/infernal-city-lore-notes

On my understanding on Canon, which as noted is not intended to convince you, but rather to explain my own interpretation:

If you want to know what I consider Canon, check out Todd Howard on fan theories: "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview

Infernal City/Lord of Souls sits at priority 3 for me. They are official, but out of the games. Future, or past, games take priority. In the future when we talk about the geography of Elsweyr, ESO takes priority 1 right now until future games touch on that part. When we talk about the Argonian language, ESO will take priority 1. When we talk about the Medes, we primarily talk about what we've seen in Skyrim. Where there are contradictions, the games and in-game lorebooks take priority.

The 37th Sermon of Vivec is priority 2. I read it in game, so the work itself exists. But due to the prevalence of unreliable narrators, I have no idea if it's actually correctly describing what it says it is. And I certainly have no way of knowing that it's correctly describing all the things it doesn't say but that are included in C0da.

C0da, in contrast is, in the words of Todd Howard, "If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right!" (And since C0da itself was in part a rejection that there was a "truth" to the "canon" and included an encouragement that fans should write their own, I'm not sure that Kirkbride would mind C0da being disregarded by fans who don't agree with his interpretation as canon.)

Just because the ESO writers included a summary of Vivec's side of C0da in the 37th Sermon does not elevate ALL of C0da to priority 1 or even priority 2. Nor does it lock them into using C0da's explanation of what happened to the Dwemer. Instead, what we've seen from developers' comments and in game is that no one knows what happened to the Dwemer.

You make a lot of jumps from "Vivec describes parts of c0da in a lore book in ESO" to "therefore all of C0da is included in a game" to "everything in C0da is thus correct and Vivec would certainly never be lying or mistaken" to "thus we know exactly what happened to the Dwemer and that's the truth."

Afraid I'm not in agreement, nor is more argument likely to change my mind.

We know Kirkbride's answer to "What happened to the Dwemer?" They became the skin of the Numidium.
We know Vivec's answer from the 37th sermon: "Go read c0da." (Though it's kinda awkward that the link is broken now, and sort of makes the 37th Sermon unintentionally hilarious in that light.)

We don't know what the Canon answer, as seen in game by all TES players, to what happened to the Dwemer. Bethesda hasn't done it yet.

I'm happy to discuss any of this, but I suspect we're likely to end up agreeing to disagreeing on whether the question of "What happened to the Dwemer?" We just don't share the same definition of canon and aren't likely to convince each other. And that's okay!

Cundu_Ertur · October 2021

No, I prefer to live in ignorance

MerguezMan wrote: »

So, unless writers completely negate TES 3 and Dwemer lore, it makes no sense to have such plot.

When you put it that way, I guess we can expect this to be the theme for the next year.