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The real problem with DC and my proposed solution(s) (from a pro fg player + DC abuser's POV)

GypsyKing22
GypsyKing22
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If you play on PC EU you may have come across me in BGs in the last couple of days. I'm fairly new to ESO PVP, but I have years of experience playing competitive fighting games at pretty high level (got a few top 3 and top 8 placings at international tournaments and managed to get a top 8 at an LCQ for the world tour of dragonball fighterz) and also a crapton of hours in dota (albeit definitely not as high of a level as in fighting games) so as far as basic pvp mechanics go that are transferable across any two pvp game, I'm quite ok, but I definitely have a lot more to learn and improve in ESO.

If you also played dota, then the concept of a blink + disable should be quite familiar to you, and also how integral they are to get a good teamfight going. Dark convergence could do anywhere between 0 to 99999 tooltip damage and it wouldn't matter, the real problem with it (and why it's so strong) is the fact that it pulls AND stuns from such a huge AoE AND that it procs via damage skills, which means the stun + pull itself will already be doing damage.

The reason this is an issue is because of the ability to stack burst damage by adding a bunch of delayed proc skills and proc set effects on top of each other, allowing me (and anyone else too) to basically do insane amounts of unavoidable damage, solo. Let's take my setup for example:

Haunting Curse (~11000 tooltip damage)
Endless Fury (~13000 tooltip damage)
DoS (~16000 tooltip damage)
Sellistrix proc (~5000 tooltip damage)
Rushing Agony proc (~9000 topltip damage)
Stampede (~6000 tooltip damage with guaranteed crit)
Crystal frag (~9500 tooltip damage)

All this if performed correctly will hit in the same ~1 second span in which your opponent is within the pull of the DC proc and is under the effects of the stun. That's ~70000 tooltip damage not even factoring in any crits, any additional damage competent teammates would be doing to the people in the pull, or damage from DC itself. All this after resistances and battlespirit and all that junk factored in will still be a guaranteed kill on a crapton of builds even if they are at full hp (which in BGs, most people often aren't)

So what could be done about this set to let it keep its usefulness, but so that it stops completely sucking the fun out of most people's pvp experience?

1. Reduce the radius

I understand that DC by design is meant to disrupt zerg groups in big pvp areas, which is why it having a big radius was seen as a good idea. Reducing the size of the pull so that it only affects 1 dodge roll's worth of area from the radius (meaning if you get sucked in the center you could get out with exactly 1 dodge roll + walking a pixel) would make this set a lot less abusive in a battlegrounds setting, while still affecting a large enough space to not make it useless in cyrodill pvp.

2. Separate the pull and the stun effects by 0.5 seconds

This would mean people with good reactions can get out of the otherwise guaranteed burst combos, while less skilled players would still get hit.

The fact that they are removing the second pull effect is also a change in the right direction. As i said at the start of my rant, I feel the damage is irrelevant so that change is whatever.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    Only issue I have with the set is the yo-yo'ing which they are nerfing to a single pull next patch. Stun/snare isn't an issue.

    DC + other damage can hit at the same time for 25k+ after battle spirit and mitigation. I'm okay with that.

    In WoW you could do something similar with Shaman Fire Nova Totem + Frost Shock + Auto Crit Chain Lightning + Instacast Lightning Bolt and drop a player from 100% -> 20% in 2 seconds.

    I fully support this playstyle.

    Edited by SkaraMinoc on October 18, 2021 10:25PM
    RIP Deathmatch Queue, September 2021 - March 2022, You Will Be Remembered
  • thesarahandcompany
    thesarahandcompany
    ✭✭✭
    If you play on PC EU you may have come across me in BGs in the last couple of days. I'm fairly new to ESO PVP, but I have years of experience playing competitive fighting games at pretty high level (got a few top 3 and top 8 placings at international tournaments and managed to get a top 8 at an LCQ for the world tour of dragonball fighterz) and also a crapton of hours in dota (albeit definitely not as high of a level as in fighting games) so as far as basic pvp mechanics go that are transferable across any two pvp game, I'm quite ok, but I definitely have a lot more to learn and improve in ESO.

    If you also played dota, then the concept of a blink + disable should be quite familiar to you, and also how integral they are to get a good teamfight going. Dark convergence could do anywhere between 0 to 99999 tooltip damage and it wouldn't matter, the real problem with it (and why it's so strong) is the fact that it pulls AND stuns from such a huge AoE AND that it procs via damage skills, which means the stun + pull itself will already be doing damage.

    The reason this is an issue is because of the ability to stack burst damage by adding a bunch of delayed proc skills and proc set effects on top of each other, allowing me (and anyone else too) to basically do insane amounts of unavoidable damage, solo. Let's take my setup for example:

    Haunting Curse (~11000 tooltip damage)
    Endless Fury (~13000 tooltip damage)
    DoS (~16000 tooltip damage)
    Sellistrix proc (~5000 tooltip damage)
    Rushing Agony proc (~9000 topltip damage)
    Stampede (~6000 tooltip damage with guaranteed crit)
    Crystal frag (~9500 tooltip damage)

    All this if performed correctly will hit in the same ~1 second span in which your opponent is within the pull of the DC proc and is under the effects of the stun. That's ~70000 tooltip damage not even factoring in any crits, any additional damage competent teammates would be doing to the people in the pull, or damage from DC itself. All this after resistances and battlespirit and all that junk factored in will still be a guaranteed kill on a crapton of builds even if they are at full hp (which in BGs, most people often aren't)

    So what could be done about this set to let it keep its usefulness, but so that it stops completely sucking the fun out of most people's pvp experience?

    1. Reduce the radius

    I understand that DC by design is meant to disrupt zerg groups in big pvp areas, which is why it having a big radius was seen as a good idea. Reducing the size of the pull so that it only affects 1 dodge roll's worth of area from the radius (meaning if you get sucked in the center you could get out with exactly 1 dodge roll + walking a pixel) would make this set a lot less abusive in a battlegrounds setting, while still affecting a large enough space to not make it useless in cyrodill pvp.

    2. Separate the pull and the stun effects by 0.5 seconds

    This would mean people with good reactions can get out of the otherwise guaranteed burst combos, while less skilled players would still get hit.

    The fact that they are removing the second pull effect is also a change in the right direction. As i said at the start of my rant, I feel the damage is irrelevant so that change is whatever.

    Thanks for coming to my ted talk

    They're already fixing this next patch with the pull and radius.

    The only thing I wish they'd do is make it a 45s to 1 minute cool down on the set so it can't be spammed.
    Sarahandcompany
    She/Her/Hers
  • Shomenuchi
    Shomenuchi
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    According to the initial purpose of this set (catching and destroying big groups) I would suggest the next fix of the DC:
    Make the damage curve (that depends on number of players in a middle) more exponential. Like if you were caught alone you got little damage, you can even not blocking. Two players - so-so damadge. Three - well, it's hurt. Four - yeah that one was hard. Five - hell yeah. Six - RIP.
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Shomenuchi wrote: »
    According to the initial purpose of this set (catching and destroying big groups) I would suggest the next fix of the DC:
    Make the damage curve (that depends on number of players in a middle) more exponential. Like if you were caught alone you got little damage, you can even not blocking. Two players - so-so damadge. Three - well, it's hurt. Four - yeah that one was hard. Five - hell yeah. Six - RIP.

    They're also doing that already next patch.
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