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Why Magma Incarnate set is almost useless (and won't be BiS for most groups in hardest PVE content)

Paramedicus
Paramedicus
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Magma Incarnate

(1 item) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery, Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(2 items) When you heal yourself or a group member with a single target heal ability, grant the lowest Health group member within 28 meters Minor Courage and Minor Resolve, increasing their Weapon and Spell Damage by 215 and Armor by 2974 for 10 seconds. Daedric Energy will then bounce to a nearby group member within 8 meters, up to 3 times, applying Minor Courage and Minor Resolve for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


Magma Incarnate seems like cool option for tank in mixed DD group in 4-man content. Encratis's Behemoth is considered BiS for mag DD group and Tremorscale - for stam, so it seems like Magma could have its use in PUGs or mixed groups. Unfortunately it's proc mechanic will make it proc on tank in most cases and with short range of bounce mechanic (only 8 meters) ranged players may often not get the buff. To be clear: I'm excluding trash pools (esp in tight corridors) and tank n' spank bosses - this set will work just fine there if team is hugging each other.

It's tooltip desription isn't very clear, so here is how it really works.
Magma Incarnate procs on group member who is being healed and has lowest Health. Important thing to note is that mechanic works on person with lowest relative HP (%). So if tank and DD is being healed then one with bigger perentage of missing HP will get the buff. In other words, if in given moment tank has 30k HP (with 50k max) and DD has 19k HP (with 20k max) then tank will get the initial buff. It is also important to rememeber that proc will start on person who is being healed. So in case where tank has 49k HP (with 50k max) and DD has 5k HP (with 20k max) and only tank is being healed then tank will get the intitial buff.

Bounce mechanic works immediately (and only once per player) and it's short range (8m) makes it problematic. Initial proc will most likely happen on tank (since he will be one with "lowest HP" in most times) and mag DD/healer will be often too far to get the buff from the bounce (there is no way of knowing if you are in range). Stam groups will prefer Tremorscale because it is easier to get and is has 100% uptime. Magma Incarnate max uptime is 66% and will be even lower in real-use because of procs conditions (someone needs to be actually healed).

So ATM Magma seems like really niche set and maybe some coordinated groups will use it in fights where you can stack (8m is really short). It wont be good option for healer either because most single target heals are smart (so usually tank will be healed too). Radiating Regeneration, Breath of Life, Sorc Pet will most likely proc first buff on tank since tank will be one with biggest % of missing HP.



So how to fix it? Easiest way would be to make it proc on person with lowest Max HP regardless if he is being healed or not. Initial conditions would still have to be fulfilled (someone would have to be healed) so set wouldn't behave in much different way than it does now. Short range of bounce would still be problematic, but at least tank would never get the intial buff and It's easier (and more natural) for DDs/healer to stay together...


UPDATE

There is some redeeming quality of that bounce mechanic that I didnt consider in first post. That 8 meter distance is counted everytime the "buff ball" bounces from one group member to another. So if you line up 4 people that they are 8 meters apart (the line has 24 m in total) and tank is first in the line, then everyone will get the buff (ball should bounce from tank to 2nd player, then from 2nd player to 3rd player, and then to 4th). [I didnt actually line up anyone like that, but it seems it would work that way :p ]

So in real case scenario if there is stam DD on the opposite side of boss from tank (tank is facing boss away from group) and he is 4 meters from tank, then this stam DD gonna serve as link that extends the reach of buff up to 12 meters. Still, people would need to be up-to-8m aprat from each other and, as @karekiz mentioned, in harder content (many HMs, but vet arenas also) people wont be able to do that consistently (not talking about some really well coordinated groups). Keep in mind that people wont have any way of knowing if they are in buffs range (no in-game way and no addon that could help with that).



So while maybe I can't call this set useless, I still think it is pretty unreliable (to the point of being useless). You dont have much control over proc (while you have 100% with tremor or encrantis). Some semi-reliable way would be to cast ability that cost HP (ie Balance) and then self-heal. However, if there is another source of healing (ie aoe or healer) then you may be too slow to proc it... Also you may be not too eager to debuff yourself all the time (with Balance) in harder fights, just to proc minor damage buff.

So if you wont be able to proc buff on whole team consitently, then - why bother with this set? Wouldnt it be better to just pick Tremor for that one stam DD? Then you can live a happy life of tank who doesnt need to care about timing balance/self-heal and way-too-short-buff-distance. Or maybe get bloodspawn for ulti reg or go 'selfish' with guardian? Just pick something that is reliable?


UPDATE 2 (solution for fixing the set)

i noticed my original solution is stupid (there would be big chance that 4 th person wouldnt get the buff). I got fixated on that HP idea for some reason. So the solution would be that initial proc should happen on player who is furthest away from person who is wearing the set. This would cause chain reaction that would go back to the tank (if tank is wearing the set ofc). People would still need to care about proper distances (8m) but at least in worst case scenario buff would always hit some DD/healer and not the tank only. This solution would also encourage tanks to use smart heals to "maintain" the proc (ATM one may be afraid that proc will happen when there is no DD around who could get the bounce buff).
Edited by Paramedicus on October 14, 2021 8:17AM
PC EU
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  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    8m is fairly large and DPS should be stacking behind bosses anyways, which is usually right next to tanks.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    i know that there are some bosses that let you stack on each other, press auto-attack and go fetch some snack from kitchen, but im thinking about ones that are bit harder (wont let squishes stay close or require some movement). I wouldnt bother to test that set and write this long post if i was choosing best gear for base dungs.

    PC EU
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  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    i know that there are some bosses that let you stack on each other, press auto-attack and go fetch some snack from kitchen, but im thinking about ones that are bit harder (wont let squishes stay close or require some movement). I wouldnt bother to test that set and write this long post if i was choosing best gear for base dungs.

    There are very few bosses in this game that do not allow a tight stack behind them or at least within 8 meters of the tank. Very very few. It isn't about auto attacking. Most fights are far more efficient if the DPS aren't running around like chickens and just stacking and burning and letting the healer and tank do their jobs.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    i guess devs used same logic while designing this set
    PC EU
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  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    So to sum it up (for tanks reading):

    1) keep in mind that this set has same range as lord warden and will most likely proc on you

    2) your team has no way of knowing if they are in buffs range (no lord warden's blue circle showing it)

    3) even if they get back into range they wont get the buff (bounce mechanic works just once per player, so they will have to wait ~ 15s for next proc if it happens)

    4) buff ball bounces from one team member to another expanding reach of buff for another 8m (which is good), but it doesnt always chooses shortest way (ie wont target player who is between two others) which adds some choas (that seems like devs work, so everyone have bigger chance to get the buff)

    5) it takes time for buff ball to bounce from one member to another, so even if team was well positioned during initial proc, it is easy for them to break "the 8 meter chains" (because of aoes, mechs etc).

    6) buff will have uptime lower than 66% - you need to be actually healed by single target skill (overhealing and aoe heals wont trigger it)


    So.. yea, good luck with using it on bosses that arent stack and burn and/or with teams that arent well coordinated

    Edited by Paramedicus on October 13, 2021 10:49AM
    PC EU
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    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • GRXRG
    GRXRG
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    At least the set is solid in PvP.

    It's nothing overpowered, but very balanced and maybe could even see a buff for sure without becoming broken.

    I like it for Battlegrounds to help team mates even if I don't run a support, and it's solid in solo as well because wd/sd and resistances are always good to have.

    Now it's basically the "cannot go wrong" monster helm, like Bloodspawn used to be.

    Don't know much a use in PvE for it tho.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    sure, seems pretty good for small scale cooridanted pvp


    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    8m is fairly large and DPS should be stacking behind bosses anyways, which is usually right next to tanks.

    8 meters really isn't that large when you consider a lot of HM DLC mechanics force you from stack and whack. Not to mention Boss hit boxes count towards that 8 meters.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    UPDATE

    There is some redeeming quality of that bounce mechanic that I didnt consider in first post. That 8 meter distance is counted everytime the "buff ball" bounces from one group member to another. So if you line up 4 people that they are 8 meters apart (the line has 24 m in total) and tank is first in the line, then everyone will get the buff (ball should bounce from tank to 2nd player, then from 2nd player to 3rd player, and then to the 4th). [I didnt actually line up anyone like that, but it seems it would work that way :p ]

    So in real case scenario, if there is stam DD on the opposite side of boss from tank (tank is facing boss away from group) and he is 4 meters from tank, then this stam DD gonna serve as link that extends the reach of buff up to 12 meters. Still, people would need to be up-to-8m apart from each other and, as @karekiz mentioned, in harder content (many HMs, but also vet arenas) people wont be able to do that consistently (not talking about some really well coordinated groups). Keep in mind that people wont have any way of knowing if they are in buffs range (no in-game way and no addon that could help with that).



    So while maybe I can't call this set useless, I still think it is pretty unreliable (to the point of being useless). You dont have much control over proc (while you have 100% with tremor or encrantis). Some semi-reliable way would be to cast ability that cost HP (ie Balance) and then self heal. However if there is another source of healing (ie aoe or healer) then you may be too slow to proc it... Also you may be not too eager to debuff yourself all the time (with Balance) in harder fights, just to proc minor damage buff.

    So if you wont be able to proc buff on whole team consitently, then - why bother with this set? Wouldnt it be better to just pick tremor for that one stam DD? Then you can live a happy life of tank who doesnt need to care about timing balance/self-heal and way-too-short-buff-distance. Or maybe get bloodspawn for ulti reg or go 'selfish' with guardian? Just pick something that is reliable?
    Edited by Paramedicus on October 12, 2021 12:44AM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    UPDATE 2 (solution for fixing the set)

    i noticed my original solution is stupid (there would be big chance that 4 th person wouldnt get the buff). I got fixated on that HP idea for some reason. So the solution would be that initial proc should happen on player who is furthest away from person who is wearing the set. This would cause chain reaction that would go back to the tank (if tank is one who is wearing the set ofc). People would still need to care about proper distances (8m) but at least in worst case scenario buff would always hit some DD/healer and not the tank only. This solution would also encourage tanks to use smart heals to "maintain" the proc (ATM one may be afraid that proc will happen when there is no DD around who could get the bounce buff).
    Edited by Paramedicus on October 12, 2021 12:46AM
    PC EU
    /script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")
    
    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    I've had great success with the set because I get to maintain very high decent uptimes in content while using a more beneficial set then Yolo. Now in 12 man, nothing can replace yolo+encratis or tremorscale, but the benefits of drakes rush+PA+MI outpace them.
  • Paramedicus
    Paramedicus
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    @ke.sardenb14_ESO
    PA has 10m range so requires team to stack and have good coordination in fights where stacking is punished or where is lotta mechanics that force team to split up. You probably don't have healer in group because his heals would lower uptime of MI. Your group also don't have stam DDs or is at least mixed, because you would favour Tremorscale.

    You probably can see where I'm going with my logic? I agree that I can't call this set totally useless (I also changed tone of first post) but this set requires some very specific conditions to work better than other sets. Working "sometimes" won't be enough. It's kinda like using olorime in 4-man content. I know that some people have fetish for tanks/healers wearing it, but how many teams are really able to maintain good uptime of it's buff on all group members during hard fights?

    So MI seems just like another set for very specific setup and for well coordinated groups. For me it's disappointment because there is shortage of (more generic) support sets for tanks for some time.
    PC EU
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    ↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or Trial Dummy with buffs (look for Harrowing Reaper) ↑↑↑
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    @ke.sardenb14_ESO
    PA has 10m range so requires team to stack and have good coordination in fights where stacking is punished or where is lotta mechanics that force team to split up. You probably don't have healer in group because his heals would lower uptime of MI. Your group also don't have stam DDs or is at least mixed, because you would favour Tremorscale.

    You probably can see where I'm going with my logic? I agree that I can't call this set totally useless (I also changed tone of first post) but this set requires some very specific conditions to work better than other sets. Working "sometimes" won't be enough. It's kinda like using olorime in 4-man content. I know that some people have fetish for tanks/healers wearing it, but how many teams are really able to maintain good uptime of it's buff on all group members during hard fights?

    So MI seems just like another set for very specific setup and for well coordinated groups. For me it's disappointment because there is shortage of (more generic) support sets for tanks for some time.

    That's good though. Sets should be situational and not one size fits all. You should have to make a decision on the best set to wear for an encounter when it comes to support. And group comp and group experience plays into that. It's ok if you don't think the set will work for whatever group you are putting together and that there are other options. Other groups will use the set just fine.
  • Paramedicus
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    @jaws343

    Hey, I would agree 100% with you (it is good when game promotes theorycrafting and builds diveristy) but this set is just another tool for 3 DD stack 'n' burn teams (and that feels like old theme in eso).

    Mine disappointment came probably from my misunderstanding of tooltip description. That 'grant the lowest Health group member within 28 meters' sounded so promising.

    Maybe I got that set totally wrong? Maybe it is for healers to provide tank with Minor Courage and Minor Resolve buffs? : >
    Edited by Paramedicus on October 12, 2021 4:55PM
    PC EU
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  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    @Paramedicus
    The benefits of PA+MI+DR are that they provide universal buffs to every 4 man comp under the sun.
    1. Tremorscale is still useless if a stamDD brings their own source of pen. Sometimes my group will have someone with alkosh or a sharpened maul.
    2. Encratis is not nearly as valuable if you only have 2 DDs, and neither are DKs, it is very likely that only 30% of their overall rotation will be fire damage.
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    @jaws343

    Hey, I would agree 100% with you (it is good when game promotes theorycrafting and builds diveristy) but this set is just another tool for 3 DD stack 'n' burn teams (and that feels like old theme in eso).

    Mine disappointment came probably from my misunderstanding of tooltip description. That 'grant the lowest Health group member within 28 meters' sounded so promising.

    Maybe I got that set totally wrong? Maybe it is for healers to provide tank with Minor Courage and Minor Resolve buffs? : >

    In my experience, the tank usually will be the source of minor courage. And since tanks are more likely to have single target heals, MI will be more effective there. This is also why symphony of blade it usually better for healers.
  • Paramedicus
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    The benefits of PA+MI+DR are that they provide universal buffs to every 4 man comp under the sun.
    That's why i liked MI - until I realized that half of the time only tank and maybe next person to him will get the buff (ast least in my imaginary scenario).
    1. Tremorscale is still useless if a stamDD brings their own source of pen. Sometimes my group will have someone with alkosh or a sharpened maul.
    Keeping uptime of alkosh in hard 4-man must be quite hard? Anyway, I don't think most 4-man teams are concerned about overpenetration (and most builds available online are made to avoid overpen)... so this just proves my point (niche set).
    3. Encratis is not nearly as valuable if you only have 2 DDs, and neither are DKs, it is very likely that only 30% of their overall rotation will be fire damage.
    This is true: not much fire damage out there, so I'm not going to call Encrantis best set ever. But it is super easy to use, getting 100% isnt any problem and is very reliable (team sees it s range). And this needs to be taken into account when you are evaluating set piece. Some build may seem great on paper, but if it requires so much maintenance that you gonna loose half of buff's uptimes during hectic fights, then - why bother with that build? Ofc there gonna be peepz that will train hard with team to make that build work, but that's "niche".


    BTW that last part about MI being healer set was me trying to be funny. But who knows, maybe devs really wanted it to be.
    PC EU
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  • FeedbackOnly
    FeedbackOnly
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    Thing is you are wrong and a lot of people are using the set.
  • Paramedicus
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    I'm using it too. Just not as often or in places I would like to.
    PC EU
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  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    @Paramedicus
    In order:
    1. I regularly use MI, I can confirm that it hit all of my party.
    2. I've actually been using Alkosh on my StamDK for 4 man content. I've had no issues keeping full up time, and now that it crits, sometimes it just melts things on its own.
    3. So MI can proc out of combat giving it the benefit of prebuffing the party, something that encratis and tremorscale can't. It is also can proc simply by running a single target hot(vigor for pa)and swapping from you staff to your shield bar, something you do just by kind of existing.
    4. Tank club calculated that a even a full 4 man mag comp with MI+DR+PA, outperformed EB+Yolo+PA, so I don't know why we are really talking about it.
  • MentalxHammer
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    Magma Incarnite is the most exciting and useful monster helm for PvP that has been introduced since Balorgh, it’s ok that it’s not a minmax set for PvE builds ;)
  • EF321
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    [quote="Paramedicus;c-7417429" And since tanks are more likely to have single target heals, MI will be more effective there.

    Radiating Regeneration is single target heal that procs MI. It is just three single target HoTs when you cast it. Nobody sees it as single target skill, but it technically is.

    It procs off pretty much anything, for example sorc can proc it with crystal proc (skill tree passive heal) or crit surge, matriarch, which is again multiple single target heals, warden procs it with lotus, etc etc.
  • ThePedge
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    Absolutely amazing set for PvP, used by almost everyone solo, and at least 1 in group
  • FeedbackOnly
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    ThePedge wrote: »
    Absolutely amazing set for PvP, used by almost everyone solo, and at least 1 in group

    PvE too
  • katorga
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    EF321 wrote: »
    [quote="Paramedicus;c-7417429" And since tanks are more likely to have single target heals, MI will be more effective there.

    It procs off pretty much anything, for example sorc can proc it with crystal proc (skill tree passive heal) or crit surge, matriarch, which is again multiple single target heals, warden procs it with lotus, etc etc.

    This. Sorc passive heals, radiating regen, intensive mender, lotus, all keep it up almost all the time.

    Great pvp set, with a nice split between damage and defense. Great pve set, imo, I' ve enjoyed it pugging through the undaunted event.

  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    As a support tank set, spaulder of ruin may out perform MI now, but I have not gotten my hands on it to be sure.
    @EF321 I have not tested that but that is interesting. The coolest thing I've found so far is that MI can proc from the heal you get from puncturing remedy, meaning it breaks the whole proc can't procs procs rule.
  • EF321
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    The coolest thing I've found so far is that MI can proc from the heal you get from puncturing remedy, meaning it breaks the whole proc can't procs procs rule.

    Oh no, don't start this :) I posted about it too many times on these forums. There really is no such rule, people got it from some very vague patch notes from three years ago, that weren't even specific about what changes. It is all in the wording of sets usually, some say "when you do direct damage with an ability" some say "when you do damage" - second one would proc of some damage proc. Say, syvarra's can trigger pillar of nirn, and pillar of nirn can trigger syvarra's, as all they need is any damage. Syvarra + pillar + sellistrix = you can do one LA, sit back and watch percursor dummy die slowly. Trinimac as it says only procs of abilities that shield (even ice staff wall of elements), but won't proc of combat physician, but Infernal guardian would proc of any set that shields, any ability, even from block shield passive.

    My favorite example of proc chain is: cast unmorphed circle of protection - it does nothing else but provides two named buffs for allies in a circle. Circle is a ground effect -> trigger winter respite. Winter respite tries to heal you, but you are full on health -> Triggers Prayer's shawl shield. Now that you got a shield on you, there is a 50% chance your infernal guardian will start firing. In that way I killed some overland mobs by casting ability that only provides buffs and chain triggers 3 sets.


    However, after recent proc set can crit update, I could not trigger "on crit" set by proc's crit, but I only tested one set.
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    I never thought of that
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