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Larcomar
Larcomar
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2 quick questions....

1) I've been playing around with a maelstrom 2h on my necro's back bar and quite liked it. If only to make a change from everyone dropping endless hail off a maelstrom bow. It's feels pretty fluid for casual play. But I forgot to take a parse before I switched him so not sure how much DPS Im losing. Yeah.... Does anyone have rough numbers on how a maelstrom 2h with stampede compares to a maelstrom bow with endless hail?

2) This got me interested in how a duel wield backbar would work. As I understand it (not tested) you can use blade cloak to proc your BB enchant. I thought that might synergise quite well on stamsorc with hurricane but.... Ive never really used duel wield before. From what ive read, bladecloak will keep your berseker enchant proccing when you bar swap, but as its 2 weps its only half strength? How does the enchant work exactly. Is each enchant only half strength; do they proc at the same time or one one turn, the other the next. Do you have to put a beserker enchant on each wep to get it up 100%? And if you're only getting say 225 wep dmg, how does the dps compare? Sounds interesting - but not sure if it wd work in practice.

cheers larc
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Can't comment on exact numbers but when it comes to enchantments when one of a certain kind is triggered it puts a cooldown on all enchantments of the same type. (I.E. Flame damage glyph puts a cooldown on other Flame glyphs, Poison glyphs put a cooldown on other Poison glyphs, etc.) Enchantments placed on one handed weapons have reduced effectiveness and are not as powerful as those places on two handed weapons. Another thing of note is the weapon/spell damage glyph has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds unlike other glyphs of 5 seconds making an infused damage glyph 5 seconds.

    Due to these issues dual wield isn't a good platform for a damage glyph as you won't be able to have two weapon damage glyphs ongoing at the same time, and each glyph will have reduced effectiveness. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this conclusion.
    Edited by Vevvev on September 25, 2021 4:59AM
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Nord_Raseri
    Nord_Raseri
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    I run the blackrose duel wield back bar on my nord stamsorc( AY 2h front bar). I'm only hitting 78k-80k but I also only hit about 81 with maelstrom bow. It's especially great for fights where nothing sits still.
      Edit: Thats with the Quick Cloak morph, you'll get a bit more with Deadly Cloak
      Edited by Nord_Raseri on September 25, 2021 5:06AM
      Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.
    • EF321
      EF321
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      You might want to look at vate 2h as well, stampede to proc enchant, momentum for extra weapon damage from set.
    • EF321
      EF321
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      EF321 wrote: »
      You might want to look at vate 2h as well, stampede to proc enchant, momentum for extra weapon damage from set.

      Actually, same applies to bows, you still use hail to apply backbar enchant, but can use master's or BRP backbar for their effects.
    • Ippokrates
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      Well, it is not so easy because you have basically two different skills used in two different situations BUT i checked this on PTS and because i got the same ration of crits, i can show you dmg input PURELY from perfected Maelstrom Weapon:

      Maelstrom Bow
      YW7rkE3.png

      Not Maelstrom Bow (Asylum)
      LD9boEx.png

      Maelstrom Maul
      yOXiJ7F.png

      Enjoy ;)
      Edited by Ippokrates on September 25, 2021 12:32PM
    • Larcomar
      Larcomar
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      Wow, thanks all. That's really handy feedback. It looks like maelstrom 2h is probably pretty close to maelstrom bow; marginally below maybe, but a lot more fluid to use in casual content, plus you only need one skill line. I may open that up as an option for some of my other toons.

      Duel wield sounds less doable; if Im reading Vevvev's post right, youre basically going to cripple your beserker glyph going that route, both 50% effect and duration. Given how key that enchant is - I mean, its 452 I think, thats significantly more than a fifth set bonus - I think a hard pass. *Unless* youve got the blackrose duel wield- I'm guessing the 6% is compensating for the loss in wpn dmg. Or, very possibly on Raseri's numbers, exceeding the loss - my guess is extra dmg from deadly cloak would put his DW numbers over his bow numbers, it's quite a big difference.

      Awesome. Thanks all

      Larc

      edit - i *really* can't type. Signed off as Lard :(
      Edited by Larcomar on September 25, 2021 9:27AM
    • EF321
      EF321
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      Larcomar wrote: »
      Duel wield sounds less doable; if Im reading Vevvev's post right, youre basically going to cripple your beserker glyph going that route, both 50% effect and duration. Given how key that enchant is - I mean, its 452 I think, thats significantly more than a fifth set bonus - I think a hard pass. *Unless* youve got the blackrose duel wield- I'm guessing the 6% is compensating for the loss in wpn dmg. Or, very possibly on Raseri's numbers, exceeding the loss - my guess is extra dmg from deadly cloak would put his DW numbers over his bow numbers, it's quite a big difference.

      edit - i *really* can't type. Signed off as Lard :(

      It is only 50% less effect, but not duration.
      Another thing, is that DW enchants are alternating. So You trigger berserk, which has 5 second CD, next you you trigger other hand enchant, that should be some damage enchant, or maybe resource if you want that.

      AFAIK, with DW and how cooldowns align with alternating enchants, there is still some issue with uptimes of berseker, but it is not 50% less for sure.
    • Ippokrates
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      Well, TBH choose what fit your playstyle. Difference always will be but they are ultimately not so massive to broke the game.


      Bow in general is great as backbar weapon.

      2h excel in solo content.

      DW is probably the best dps option for group content due to passives.

      S&B is great not only for tanks but for def in general (for example in pvp).

      My main stamplar is using all of the skill lines, depending on content. And sometimes even Resto ;)
      Edited by Ippokrates on September 25, 2021 12:43PM
    • Vevvev
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      My bad on the wording, I was talking about enchantment cooldown so how long it takes before you can proc the enchantment again. The enchantment that gives weapon and spell damage has a twice as long cooldown compared to other glyphs, and if you run an infused version it's cooldown becomes equal to normal glyphs at 5 seconds. Means with a constant damage ability in effect the glyph can be active for close to 100% of the time as long as you have the enchantment immediately proced after it ends.

      This is why the Maelstrom weapons are so nice because of how great they are as back bar weapons with how they buff the abilities that make for great enchantment procing platforms.
      PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
    • MashmalloMan
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      Maelstrom 2H as a backbar is slightly weaker than Endless Hail currently, however, next patch it will probably be more even because proc sets can crit.

      MA Bow buffs the base ability while MA 2H has a seperate dot proc which is why it's a bit behind.

      The other thing is MA Bows 14s duration allows for more space to cast front bar heavy hitting skills. It's a great back bar weapon by allowing you to do ranged damage when you can't be in melee as some fights force on you.

      As someone mentioned, DW's plus side is that you can be more mobile, you no longer waste a cast if the boss moves.. you are the "tornado" so to speak. DW works well for mobile classes like Stam Sorc that want to be on the target for thei Hurricane. It also offers Major Evasion for beter defense.

      I like Stampede as your back bar encanting skill though because it allows you to be more mobile. Normally a pure melee build would miss out on issues with not being able to attack from ranged, but Stampede allows you to close that distance.

      At the end of the day, each option is within like.. 2-3k dps of each other at the highest level (eg. 105k vs 103k) so it doesn't really matter what you choose, but instead works best for your playstyle. As I mentioned, it's also getting a noticable buff next patch.
      PC Beta - 1900+ CP

      Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
      Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


      Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
    • MudcrabAttack
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      Endless hail and arrow barrage take around 3/10ths-4/10ths of a second longer to cast than literally every other ground AOE skill. (When weaving light attacks). Stampede is instantly cast. You could look at the number of casts divided by time from esologs as a check, bow back bar tends to be around 1-2 casts per minute slower.

      Just going off the difference in cast time, if you have a 14 second rotation for both options, then you waste 0.4/14 x 100 = 2.9% of your time waiting on endless hail to land, it might represent 2-3% of your potential dps going in the can. It doesn’t explain all the difference between the two, but don’t just read the dps of one skill vs another, endless hail also slows down every other dps skill by a certain amount by making you wait.
      Edited by MudcrabAttack on September 27, 2021 3:49AM
    • Ippokrates
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      Endless hail and arrow barrage take around 3/10ths-4/10ths of a second longer to cast than literally every other ground AOE skill. (When weaving light attacks). Stampede is instantly cast. You could look at the number of casts divided by time from esologs as a check, bow back bar tends to be around 1-2 casts per minute slower.

      Just going off the difference in cast time, if you have a 14 second rotation for both options, then you waste 0.4/14 x 100 = 2.9% of your time waiting on endless hail to land, it might represent 2-3% of your potential dps going in the can. It doesn’t explain all the difference between the two, but don’t just read the dps of one skill vs another, endless hail also slows down every other dps skill by a certain amount by making you wait.

      But in the real fight (except some static boss fights), EH doesn't pull aggro, so you can cast it, use another aoe (like Caltrops) and then Charge - when all skills land at once at unexpected enemy you can have really nice punch.
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