jaws343 wrote: »

It isn't about rewards. It's about difficulty and chance/time of clear.

Why would anyone run the random on vet when the likelihood of ending up in a dungeon with players who cannot clear it exists. No one wants to waste their time ramming their head against vet dlcs which a bunch of randoms. And I doubt rewards would make this better.

My random vet completion rate is probably around 95%. I queue for vet all the time. I don't remember the last time the group disbanded. It's not completely about rewards but it can be about rewards. The extra crystals are worth queueing for vet.

You'll be just advised to find some friends. I hate this advice. It is very difficult to play even with my spouse because every player has his/her own needs, interests and understanding of speed run, slow run, story and so on. There's another MMO we are playing together with my spouse and for 3 years we can't find one more player for regular team activities. Now in ESO I need to find 3 players who share my view of playstyle and are ready to do it exactly when I'm up for a dungeon? This is a joke, really.

I also tend to rush through random-normal dungeons. Why? Because I've experienced this dungeon probably a couple hundred times already and item wise I only need a small choice for completing my collection. If it wasn't for the transmute crystals, I wouldn't probably run dungeons at all anymore. Sure, running dungeons is usually a fun experience but may also lead to plenty of frustration. Depending on the group. I.e. DLC vet dungeons usually require some communication, especially when you have not that much experience with the encounters.

Unless you run with a premade group, you don't know what you get. You might have a jackpot and get a very good group but most of the time you hit the zonk and as a tank you are the DD of the group. Just queued for random-vet yesterday in the hopes to land in a daily pledge but I got Fang Lair. The group clearly hasn't had much of experience with this dungeon but we managed to get to the 2nd boss, the zoo event how I call it. Before the first pull I didn't say anything to the group, except that I was unsure if our dps will be enough to clear the dungeon, as I had the hope that these players are just not top-DPS but at least know the mechanics of this fight. But as soon as they were running like headless chickens through the room, noone interrupted the cat and so on, it was pretty obvious that this might get a tough challenge. On the second pull I asked them to stay a bit closer so we can interrupt the cat when needed and focus it first. What happend was, people ran even more crazier than before through the room and focusing the tiny bomb-adds and the guar. I was the only one interrupting (running through the room constantly) and kept ressing players left and right. Before the 3rd pull I asked whether things are still unclear. One of the players just typed something in Russian I couldn't understand and an other guy called my out as toxic. I was a bit buffled here as I clearly wanted to explain them how to play this encounter. Some tries later we actually managed to kill this boss (roughly 20 minuts fight and us being lucky that the cat always jumped someone other in the group than me, the only one interrupting the cat). Ok, we progressed to the third boss where the boss sommoned his totem and the group was still focusing the boss that didn't take any damage at all. At one point I asked the group to focus the totem as more and more mobs flooded the room. But regardless of what I said, the group kept doing the exact opposite. We wiped and before the second pull I wanted to ask why they didn't focus the totem but kept pushing the boss (which was >90% before he summoned his totem, so far away from burning him down). But before I was able to finish my sentence I was typing, the DD who accused me for being toxic just pulled the boss with the same strategy they used before. I managed to kill like 3 totems on my own with the group being fully on the boss before I was last man standing with the boss at like 85%. Before the 3rd pull a discussion between the "oh, you're so toxic" player and me started to break loose that's when I quit the group as my time wasn't worth spending on that guy further. Calling someone out as toxic just for providing help to obviously inexperienced players and behaving even more toxic and resisting to take advice was a barrier I couldn't accept further. The group for vet Bloodroot Forge that I got afterwards wasn't good in DPS also, but at least was able to play mechanics properly. I've spent like 1 1/2 hours+ in Fang Lair and got nothing except for repair costs. Blootroot Forge took us like 35-40 minutes and at least yielded 10 crystal stones at the end.

Especially communication with people from differenct cultures is already a challenge in itself. I.e. I didn't know what the Russian guy said in the Fang Lair group at all. Not sure whether the others did understand him/her and I was the only one not understanding Russian. But even when i.e. English is used to communicate, there might still be cultural differences. I.e. Germans and people from Eastern Europe tend to be more direct than people from Southern and Western Europe. This all plays together in how someone experience communication. Sometimes I wish ESO had an option to queue only with people you are able to communicate with so that people that only speak Russian can group up with people that only speak Russian or don't care about what the others speak. This at least could guarantee that players can communicate with each other. Whether the cultural differences and how such messages exchanged by others it though yet a different story.

But back to topic: One thing you did not mention in your post was that new players and the ones leveling alts also benefit from the current system. I.e. without the crystals one might get for queuing in random normal way less normal dungeon groups would form and thus less dungeons would open up for new players/alts to join and thus longer waiting times for dungeon groups and less experience gained in terms of leveling undaunted or other skill-lines and so forth. Also, I have never seen a player being kicked on random-normal because he did his quest or the group not accepting that s/he is doing the quest. Usually a short statement at the start of the dungeon like "I'm having a quest here" is enough so that people wait at certain bosses needed for the quest. However, what I regularly see is that people start to loot everything then suddenly stopping to sell the whole junk to the vendor and continuing looting everything. I remember that after waiting like 10 (!) minutes for 2 guys to come by (just to the boss waiting in the next room) as they were looting/selling all the stuff they could get a grip on, I quit that group as did the healer.

MrBrownstone wrote: »

My random vet completion rate is probably around 95%. I queue for vet all the time. I don't remember the last time the group disbanded. It's not completely about rewards but it can be about rewards. The extra crystals are worth queueing for vet.

Which extra crystals do you mean? Completing normal or vet random yields 10 crystals. Only daily pledges give 1 on normal, 3 on vet and 5 on vet with hardmode combining up to 25 crystals per day at max. (3x5 for the daily pledges + 10 for random). With 18 chars at max of 450 crystals per day though I guess you'd need a full-day job to do this every day. Even if you'd double the crystals you can obtain by running vet randoms, the overall yield could be higher if you still rush through normal as vet DLCs, if run in random PUGs, is probably more time-consuming and thus the return on investment in total lower.

As we don't know what random-dungeons you are running, i.e. do you have every DLC/chapter and do you have enough CPs to get queued for all of the newer DLCs? Running non-DLC dungeons on vet isn't usually an issue. However, as outlined in my short Fang Lair example above, when it comes down to DLC dungeons things quickly can change.

Another option, instead of trying to bribe people to run Vet, is to make a "stop here to gather your party" spot before each boss fight. You can't start the boss fight til everyone is in the circle. (I think Neverwinter does this). That'll keep people from blasting through without the rest of their group.

(well, or at least only let them blast through each set of trash between bosses)

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Another option, instead of trying to bribe people to run Vet, is to make a "stop here to gather your party" spot before each boss fight. You can't start the boss fight til everyone is in the circle. (I think Neverwinter does this). That'll keep people from blasting through without the rest of their group.

(well, or at least only let them blast through each set of trash between bosses)

Next patch the whole group will be auto ported to the boss

One way of incentivizing normal speed dungeon runs is to Calculate the average time it takes to clear a dungeon without significant rushing, this is the baseline reward that has extra loot over what we have now. This excludes important set items on final boss. The faster you go beyond this the lower the reward (again ignoring set items on final boss). If you repeat a dungeon this suffers from diminishing returns. In addition you can scale this based on relative cp level. Lower CP players get more that high CP players where scaling is active.

Lately I noticed that when I do pledges it is much better to queue for vet dlc as I mostly get decent party and clear. Queueing for norm dlc will end up with newbie fake tank sorc who dies instantly aggroing all the trash, bunch of rushers, and no one will know mech or listen, as in dlc dung sometimes you must do them even on normals. So my choise are vets nowadays, something really changed

The idea will not solve the issue and will just create more issues.

You assume that everyone that is rushing through is just doing their daily dungeon for the crystals. Whats about the ppl doing them for the XP? What about the ppl that farm gear or do their pledges on normal? You wont reach them with your idea in any way.

Besides that flaw you also have a general attraction issue because you would attract everyone to the higher difficulty, not only capable veterans, but also incapable players that make up a huge amount of the randoms. You already see that happening with pledges.
I play only tanks and i already have to drop groups for normal DLC dungeons because even CP1200 players are regularly completely uncapable. When i queue for vet DLC i regularly see groups that are barely able to go anywhere and it just takes ages to get anything done, if they can do it at all. So if you like to do random vets than think about again if you would still like them with <10k DPS DDs or healers that die from every AoE.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Another option, instead of trying to bribe people to run Vet, is to make a "stop here to gather your party" spot before each boss fight. You can't start the boss fight til everyone is in the circle. (I think Neverwinter does this). That'll keep people from blasting through without the rest of their group.

(well, or at least only let them blast through each set of trash between bosses)

And then you come into a dungeon with Joe that decides that he wants to crawl and explore every corner and loot every wooden crate while you wait for 5-10mins at every boss for him to come and you realize that this is not such a great idea.

redspecter23 wrote: »

As soon as you add extra rewards to vet, you increase the number of people queueing for vet that have no clue what they are doing. They just want the shinies. I like it how it is now. The rewards are the same for norm and vet so the only ones doing vet actually want to be there for the challenge or existing dungeon rewards.

That is what we can already see happening with Pledges where players barely contributing anything insist of getting the vet HM for the bigger reward.

Xebov wrote: »

The idea will not solve the issue and will just create more issues.

You assume that everyone that is rushing through is just doing their daily dungeon for the crystals. Whats about the ppl doing them for the XP? What about the ppl that farm gear or do their pledges on normal? You wont reach them with your idea in any way.

Besides that flaw you also have a general attraction issue because you would attract everyone to the higher difficulty, not only capable veterans, but also incapable players that make up a huge amount of the randoms. You already see that happening with pledges.
I play only tanks and i already have to drop groups for normal DLC dungeons because even CP1200 players are regularly completely uncapable. When i queue for vet DLC i regularly see groups that are barely able to go anywhere and it just takes ages to get anything done, if they can do it at all. So if you like to do random vets than think about again if you would still like them with <10k DPS DDs or healers that die from every AoE.

Been there and done that myself. I use to only solo que on my tank for all pledges. And I've had plenty of dlc runs that shared the usual "nightmare fuel" that is regurgitated on the forms. It never dissuaded me though, if anything it only taught me patience and helped me hone my tanking skills and I had to learn all the mechanics to an intuitive level. It also taught me very important self resource management and self-reliance that is independent of any gear I build for at a given time.

I do understand, don't get me wrong. And everyone has different tolerance levels naturally, but there also comes a point where a negative rhetoric only feeds and bleeds into a narrative that dissuades potential players from experiencing content and getting that drive to improve themselves. I believe increasing the overall population pool for vet ques is a good thing overall. A small-nit dungeon running guild that i'm in, the guild is literally formed due to all of us meeting each other in one time or another in pug groups. The majority of my first dlc hm clears, were also done through the group finder. And boy was that a challenge in itself, but it is possible. These positive interactions should be emphasized, rather then only passing the terror stories and just calling it quits and never trying again. I guess is what I'm trying to get at. To each their own though.

I can see the potential risk of vet ques being flooded with the bad sort with a better reward incentive, but I'm not convinced. I think it can only help make the que population more healthy. The usual bad and toxic behavior we all see in random normals, cannot survive in veteran content for long in my opinion. They will naturally be weeded out.

CP disabled option for normal dungeon runs. No elite player looking for a quick rush will use it. No new player will have CP to loose.

And now you have a place for new people to learn at their own pace.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

The idea will not solve the issue and will just create more issues.

You assume that everyone that is rushing through is just doing their daily dungeon for the crystals. Whats about the ppl doing them for the XP? What about the ppl that farm gear or do their pledges on normal? You wont reach them with your idea in any way.

Besides that flaw you also have a general attraction issue because you would attract everyone to the higher difficulty, not only capable veterans, but also incapable players that make up a huge amount of the randoms. You already see that happening with pledges.
I play only tanks and i already have to drop groups for normal DLC dungeons because even CP1200 players are regularly completely uncapable. When i queue for vet DLC i regularly see groups that are barely able to go anywhere and it just takes ages to get anything done, if they can do it at all. So if you like to do random vets than think about again if you would still like them with <10k DPS DDs or healers that die from every AoE.

Been there and done that myself. I use to only solo que on my tank for all pledges. And I've had plenty of dlc runs that shared the usual "nightmare fuel" that is regurgitated on the forms. It never dissuaded me though, if anything it only taught me patience and helped me hone my tanking skills and I had to learn all the mechanics to an intuitive level. It also taught me very important self resource management and self-reliance that is independent of any gear I build for at a given time.

I do understand, don't get me wrong. And everyone has different tolerance levels naturally, but there also comes a point where a negative rhetoric only feeds and bleeds into a narrative that dissuades potential players from experiencing content and getting that drive to improve themselves. I believe increasing the overall population pool for vet ques is a good thing overall. A small-nit dungeon running guild that i'm in, the guild is literally formed due to all of us meeting each other in one time or another in pug groups. The majority of my first dlc hm clears, were also done through the group finder. And boy was that a challenge in itself, but it is possible. These positive interactions should be emphasized, rather then only passing the terror stories and just calling it quits and never trying again. I guess is what I'm trying to get at. To each their own though.

I can see the potential risk of vet ques being flooded with the bad sort with a better reward incentive, but I'm not convinced. I think it can only help make the que population more healthy. The usual bad and toxic behavior we all see in random normals, cannot survive in veteran content for long in my opinion. They will naturally be weeded out.

I understand you too. I just doubt that your idea will get the intended result. If your goal is to create a betetr environment for new players, why not group them together? The dungeon finder should be modifyable in a way that low level players or ppl with the quest are grouped together. It always strikes me as odd that iam pulled togetehr with 3 level 10 guys while iam CP1800.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I can see the potential risk of vet ques being flooded with the bad sort with a better reward incentive, but I'm not convinced. I think it can only help make the que population more healthy. The usual bad and toxic behavior we all see in random normals, cannot survive in veteran content for long in my opinion. They will naturally be weeded out.

I somehow disagree. I think what will happen is that people will queue for vet dungeons and hope for a non-dlc one and leave the group instantly when it is one of the newer DLC dungeons which require some DPS but also coordination. The root problem here is that vet dungeons do not have the same base difficulty level. Non-DLC vet dungeons are way easier compared to more recent DLC ones.

BejaProphet wrote: »

CP disabled option for normal dungeon runs. No elite player looking for a quick rush will use it. No new player will have CP to loose.

And now you have a place for new people to learn at their own pace.

New players will have a hard time finding groups to do these dungeons then actually if you try to "exclude" players with CPs that way. I've talked to some new players, espeically former WoW players, and they actually enjoy running dungeons. From what I noticed is that they do not care that much about the lore and do not take the time to listen to what the NPCs said but want to reach level 50 as fast as possible to play with "the big guys". Sure, there will be plenty of people out there who are enjoying the game for its quests and solo-playability, though removing CPs from normal dungeons will hurt new players more than it will provide any benefits, even though they might not benefit from such directly yet.

I'd simply add different queues to accommodate how players want to play & then I'd add a mentor type system that you can choose to be notified when players are looking to run certain dungeons certain ways & if you take time to help get extra rewards. Like maybe a points system like pvp has tiers the more you help the better your extra rewards can be at end of month

I would never queue for a vet random. It's just not worth the stress of dealing with people who can't perform their role.

At least on normal I can hard carry an instance. I always make an effort to go at the pace of the group and not skip anything that's aggroed. In my experience, most players appreciate the fast run as long as I go at their pace.