ZOS: Please clarify how Hrothgar is supposed to work

fred4 · September 2021

This set is just stupidly inconsistent. It IMO promotes bad gameplay that is random and unearned. Yeah, I'm salty. Why? Because I just got killed by some stamden who ran in with his Subterranean (5K) and Dawnbreaker (7K) and a big fat 14K Hrothgar proc. Where? In Imperial City. Was I grouped? No. Were there are other players around? Yeah, but loosely spread out. I don't think there were many in 8m range, but I could be wrong. Were there NPCs around? Most definitely. Did I have high resistances? Nope. Medium resistances. 26K each on the back bar, buffed.

My main gripe is with the unpredictability of the set. How exactly does the above happen? Don't you think a 14K proc or the even higher values I have read about are excessive? Or the 8m range for that matter?

When you hit a bunch of players with Dawnbreaker and they all get stunned, on which player(s) does Hrothgar proc? Can it proc on multiple players simultaneously?
Can Hrothgar proc on NPCs in IC as well? Do the NPCs in IC have resistances for that matter, other than the bosses?
I have seen it suggested that Hrothgar sums up the resistances of everyone in the area surrounding the target and that is why it hits so hard. Is this true?
Does Hrothgar scale properly with Battle Spirit, e.g. hit for 13% of resistances rather than 26%? I guess it does not, since the tooltip does not change in PvP areas. Can you clarify?
Is Hrothgar mitigated by armor? By other mitigations, such as Major Evasion?
As I've read elsewhere, Hrothgar can proc simply by firing on a stunned target, enabling the target to be hit by Hrothgar from multiple players at once. Is this true?

Everyone I know is scratching their head as to how this set works exactly. Come on, ZOS, please explain how this is "as intended" or tidy up the code.

fred4 · September 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0K-SQiw-kA

Still clear as mud to me. Why is he talking about two parts of damage? So everyone in an AOE stun procs Hrothgar on themselves, but only one explodes? How does that add up to 23K in the final example?

Most importantly: As the templar is hit for 9.4K and the surrounding player with 23K due to his much lower resistances, doesn't that imply that everyone has an incentive to build tanky now? Or to build equally tanky as your surrounding group? I just don't get it.

fred4 · September 2021

Dark Convergence has clearly understandable counterplay. How am I supposed to account for Hrothgar in my playstyle as (a) a solo player or (b) in a PuG. I have no idea what my faction mates are running. I can stay away from templars doing the healing ult, from werewolves, from people with other high resistance ults. I suppose I can throw myself into the fight and make sure I'm the one that's hit and exploding, since that seems safer for both me and my faction mates as a lower resistance player. Alas I can't tell who is wearing Hrothgar and against who that would, therefore, be prudent.

Sun7dance · September 2021

Major Evasion doesn't decrease the Hrothgar damage.
At least not if you get the stun.

Daffen · September 2021

Theres single target damage to the one who gets stunned, he procs the aoe damage portion around him based on his resistances. The problem is the damage of that aoe is ignoring battle spirit mitigation. So he takes 5k damage where ~50% is mitigated from battlespirit and around ~50% if hes max resists. The others doesnt get mitigation from battlespirit so only their resistances are mitigating it. So if they have 30% mitigation from resists they only mitigate 30% instead of 30% + 50% from battlespirit.

One thing to note, the more resists you have, the more damage you mitigate from hrothgar than it increases. More resists = less damage from hrothgar. More resists = more damage to other players within the aoe proc which ignores battlespirit.

divnyi · September 2021

Daffen wrote: »

One thing to note, the more resists you have, the more damage you mitigate from hrothgar than it increases. More resists = less damage from hrothgar. More resists = more damage to other players within the aoe proc which ignores battlespirit.

Not true, damage increases, but dead slow.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlT6myEhHmGuj4Ptz_92bb_1jALHy4adGSh9QffYzQg/edit?usp=sharing

Joy_Division · September 2021

fred4 wrote: »

This set is just stupidly inconsistent. It IMO promotes bad gameplay that is random and unearned. Yeah, I'm salty. Why? Because I just got killed by some stamden who ran in with his Subterranean (5K) and Dawnbreaker (7K) and a big fat 14K Hrothgar proc. Where? In Imperial City. Was I grouped? No. Were there are other players around? Yeah, but loosely spread out. I don't think there were many in 8m range, but I could be wrong. Were there NPCs around? Most definitely. Did I have high resistances? Nope. Medium resistances. 26K each on the back bar, buffed.

My main gripe is with the unpredictability of the set. How exactly does the above happen? Don't you think a 14K proc or the even higher values I have read about are excessive? Or the 8m range for that matter?
When you hit a bunch of players with Dawnbreaker and they all get stunned, on which player(s) does Hrothgar proc? Can it proc on multiple players simultaneously?

Can Hrothgar proc on NPCs in IC as well? Do the NPCs in IC have resistances for that matter, other than the bosses?

I have seen it suggested that Hrothgar sums up the resistances of everyone in the area surrounding the target and that is why it hits so hard. Is this true?

Does Hrothgar scale properly with Battle Spirit, e.g. hit for 13% of resistances rather than 26%? I guess it does not, since the tooltip does not change in PvP areas. Can you clarify?

Is Hrothgar mitigated by armor? By other mitigations, such as Major Evasion?

As I've read elsewhere, Hrothgar can proc simply by firing on a stunned target, enabling the target to be hit by Hrothgar from multiple players at once. Is this true?

Everyone I know is scratching their head as to how this set works exactly. Come on, ZOS, please explain how this is "as intended" or tidy up the code.

Why bother? Even if ZOS were to be able to provide accurate answers to all of these questions (which I doubt they can, since they cant even communicate to me what sets work in Ravenwatch), how is that going to make your time playing ESO any better? You're just out there around some other people in your alliance in a alliance oriented PvP game and you got deleted by a piece of gear set. That's not going to change unless you alter your play style to 100% of the time gank by yourself and never going near any objectives or any players, and even then you're still going to have to deal with other gear sets ZOS puts into the game to solve PvP problems and entice its customers to buy the DLCs.

gamma71 · September 2021

There not gonna clarify anything, that would intail them having a clue.

RevJJ · September 2021

Today I got hit by a 24k Hrothgar proc, through the floor of the upper floor of a keep tower. I was on the middle floor, there was nobody else near me and I only got hit by the Hrothgar proc. Neither death recap nor combat metrics showed anything that actually set off the Hrothgar damage.

Doesn’t seem broken or bugged at all. /s

Jaraal · September 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

This set is just stupidly inconsistent. It IMO promotes bad gameplay that is random and unearned. Yeah, I'm salty. Why? Because I just got killed by some stamden who ran in with his Subterranean (5K) and Dawnbreaker (7K) and a big fat 14K Hrothgar proc. Where? In Imperial City. Was I grouped? No. Were there are other players around? Yeah, but loosely spread out. I don't think there were many in 8m range, but I could be wrong. Were there NPCs around? Most definitely. Did I have high resistances? Nope. Medium resistances. 26K each on the back bar, buffed.

My main gripe is with the unpredictability of the set. How exactly does the above happen? Don't you think a 14K proc or the even higher values I have read about are excessive? Or the 8m range for that matter?
When you hit a bunch of players with Dawnbreaker and they all get stunned, on which player(s) does Hrothgar proc? Can it proc on multiple players simultaneously?

Can Hrothgar proc on NPCs in IC as well? Do the NPCs in IC have resistances for that matter, other than the bosses?

I have seen it suggested that Hrothgar sums up the resistances of everyone in the area surrounding the target and that is why it hits so hard. Is this true?

Does Hrothgar scale properly with Battle Spirit, e.g. hit for 13% of resistances rather than 26%? I guess it does not, since the tooltip does not change in PvP areas. Can you clarify?

Is Hrothgar mitigated by armor? By other mitigations, such as Major Evasion?

As I've read elsewhere, Hrothgar can proc simply by firing on a stunned target, enabling the target to be hit by Hrothgar from multiple players at once. Is this true?

Everyone I know is scratching their head as to how this set works exactly. Come on, ZOS, please explain how this is "as intended" or tidy up the code.

Why bother? Even if ZOS were to be able to provide accurate answers to all of these questions (which I doubt they can, since they cant even communicate to me what sets work in Ravenwatch), how is that going to make your time playing ESO any better?

Agreed.

Even if you had the answers to all your questions, what would you do differently?

fred4 · September 2021

Jaraal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

This set is just stupidly inconsistent. It IMO promotes bad gameplay that is random and unearned. Yeah, I'm salty. Why? Because I just got killed by some stamden who ran in with his Subterranean (5K) and Dawnbreaker (7K) and a big fat 14K Hrothgar proc. Where? In Imperial City. Was I grouped? No. Were there are other players around? Yeah, but loosely spread out. I don't think there were many in 8m range, but I could be wrong. Were there NPCs around? Most definitely. Did I have high resistances? Nope. Medium resistances. 26K each on the back bar, buffed.

My main gripe is with the unpredictability of the set. How exactly does the above happen? Don't you think a 14K proc or the even higher values I have read about are excessive? Or the 8m range for that matter?
When you hit a bunch of players with Dawnbreaker and they all get stunned, on which player(s) does Hrothgar proc? Can it proc on multiple players simultaneously?

Can Hrothgar proc on NPCs in IC as well? Do the NPCs in IC have resistances for that matter, other than the bosses?

I have seen it suggested that Hrothgar sums up the resistances of everyone in the area surrounding the target and that is why it hits so hard. Is this true?

Does Hrothgar scale properly with Battle Spirit, e.g. hit for 13% of resistances rather than 26%? I guess it does not, since the tooltip does not change in PvP areas. Can you clarify?

Is Hrothgar mitigated by armor? By other mitigations, such as Major Evasion?

As I've read elsewhere, Hrothgar can proc simply by firing on a stunned target, enabling the target to be hit by Hrothgar from multiple players at once. Is this true?

Everyone I know is scratching their head as to how this set works exactly. Come on, ZOS, please explain how this is "as intended" or tidy up the code.

Why bother? Even if ZOS were to be able to provide accurate answers to all of these questions (which I doubt they can, since they cant even communicate to me what sets work in Ravenwatch), how is that going to make your time playing ESO any better?

Agreed.

Even if you had the answers to all your questions, what would you do differently?

Out of the stuff I've read, I suspect Hoarcrux' video is closest to the truth. In that case what I would do differently is:

(1) Limit Hrothgar to 1 target when an AOE stun / immobilize is used. It currently appears as though multiple targets are hit by the initial hit, but only one explodes. I am actually not sure whether Hoarcrux has this correct or whether the scaling on the targets hit by the explosion is just really extreme.

(2) Make sure the explosion damage is reduced by Battle Spirit.

(3) Make it impossible for Hrothgar from multiple players to hit a single target from a single CC.

Jaraal · September 2021

ZOS > Dark Convergence:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, just wanted to give a quick update around Dark Convergence. We've heard your feedback and will have some changes in Monday's PTS patch notes around this set. Keep an eye out for that.

ZOS > Hrothgar's Chill:

*crickets*

ResidentContrarian · September 2021

It's supposed to randomly 1-shot players and make the wearer chill if they have previously been beaten by the player that randomly got one-shotted.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2021

Is it the bugs that people hate about hrothgar or is it the armor countering part people hate? I can't tell sometimes because as much hate as the bugged parts get it seems that there is another equally frustrated portion that hates the damage it deals. When it doesn't bug out it hits acceptable damage for a set that is meant for punishing passive defense. A thing that I always felt was too difficult to quickly counter and it doesn't deserve to be that hard to counter considering its passive. Look at the forms of active defense and you can find many good counters.

Defensive buffs -> strike when they are down and use offensive buffs/debuffs(maybe they could add an offensive purge ability)
Shield spells -> strike when they are down with burst
Blocking -> Dots and unblockable abilities
Rolling -> Aoe effects, dots, and undodgeable abilities
Stealth -> Many abilities, sets, and a potion that turns it off completely
Line of sighting -> Melee range burst and stuns
Healing -> Healing reduction debuffs

Stacking huge HP, armor, crit resistance is always active/passive and countering all three requires very specific glass cannon set ups. Those same setups hit WAY too hard on normal players and cause grief. Hrothgar gets around all three by not critting and dealing high hp damage that scales off armor. In a fairer world abilities like piercing mark should also do something like add X% max hp damage to pvp attacks on the effected target and major fracture/breach would remove X amount crit resistance as well. We have to settle for a set and its likely going to get giga nerfed soon. It will become as useless as knight slayer and passive defense will continue to be hard to counter without making your character 1 GCD(yes 1 GCD I am not exaggerating) normal players.

Its those normal players that suffer the most from the war between passive defense and strong burst/offence. Not enough offense or burst to even tickle a tank and not enough defense to survive the builds that can kill tanks. Getting 1 shotted from standing too close to a hrothgar target....... Yeah they really should remove the aoe part, that is insanely stupid. Normal dps builds are the most common, so its no surprise most players don't pvp at all.

fred4 · September 2021

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO: Look at Hoarcrux video. The player who gets punished with extreme (23K) damage is not the tank. It's the squishier player next to the tank.

There are already counters to high resistance builds. Corrosive Armor and Onslaught. Both nerfed so no one talks about them anymore. Same will happen to Hrothgar as you say. Some of it's behavior seems like outright bugs or inept programming though. I can't believe it's what the designers intended. Then again, leaving their programmers to their own devices, because, "eh", the playerbase will test for us and it doesn't matter if it's implemented exactly as intended, that's been par for the course too.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2021

fred4 wrote: »

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO: Look at Hoarcrux video. The player who gets punished with extreme (23K) damage is not the tank. It's the squishier player next to the tank.

There are already counters to high resistance builds. Corrosive Armor and Onslaught. Both nerfed so no one talks about them anymore. Same will happen to Hrothgar as you say. Some of it's behavior seems like outright bugs or inept programming though. I can't believe it's what the designers intended. Then again, leaving their programmers to their own devices, because, "eh", the playerbase will test for us and it doesn't matter if it's implemented exactly as intended, that's been par for the course too.

Right its bugged and hits the tanks team harder then the tank itself. The aoe component is hilariously stupid anyways and should just go away completely. When it doesn't bug out though it hits an acceptable amount of damage against high resist builds. Was trying to figure out if its only the bug people have a problem with or is their high resistance players sneaking in here and lobbying to nerf the thing that counters them. Never personally played a patch where I could more easily remove tank, so I assume they come here to lobby for its removal.

I think the problem with onslaught and corrosive armor is that only removes resistance from the equation and they are excluded to one class and weapon type. Does nothing to high hp or crit resist. Chances are if you stack resistance, you are also stacking Hp and crit resistance as well. Hrothgar is actually pretty good against all three as I said.

fred4 · September 2021

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO: Look at Hoarcrux video. The player who gets punished with extreme (23K) damage is not the tank. It's the squishier player next to the tank.

There are already counters to high resistance builds. Corrosive Armor and Onslaught. Both nerfed so no one talks about them anymore. Same will happen to Hrothgar as you say. Some of it's behavior seems like outright bugs or inept programming though. I can't believe it's what the designers intended. Then again, leaving their programmers to their own devices, because, "eh", the playerbase will test for us and it doesn't matter if it's implemented exactly as intended, that's been par for the course too.

Right its bugged and hits the tanks team harder then the tank itself. The aoe component is hilariously stupid anyways and should just go away completely. When it doesn't bug out though it hits an acceptable amount of damage against high resist builds. Was trying to figure out if its only the bug people have a problem with or is their high resistance players sneaking in here and lobbying to nerf the thing that counters them. Never personally played a patch where I could more easily remove tank, so I assume they come here to lobby for its removal.

I think the problem with onslaught and corrosive armor is that only removes resistance from the equation and they are excluded to one class and weapon type. Does nothing to high hp or crit resist. Chances are if you stack resistance, you are also stacking Hp and crit resistance as well. Hrothgar is actually pretty good against all three as I said.

Crit resist is hard to come by. I'm not sure that anyone is still stacking that. Outside of wearing Impregnable and, maybe, a Critical Riposte backbar, there isn't any way to even get to 3K as a solo player these days.

Building for everything, high health, high crit resist and high resistances leaves you with the usual problems. How do you still do damage and how do you have decent heals. One answer lies in Hrothgar itself. You just run that set and, if you're organized, maybe you play with equally tanky players. ZOS shot themselves in the foot by breaking their new rules and making that set scale from something other than weapon / spell damage.

I don't doubt that major imbalances remain. I don't play stamden nor necro (either flavor). That's where I'd look for balance issues. In the most general terms, though, I find that outright tanks can be killed by pressure builds. They don't tend to have enough healing to withstand sustained pressure. Many PvPers don't cop on to this, because most play burst builds. That said, I'm not trying to defend builds that have it all. Arctic Blast healing wardens from past patches come to mind. Since I do not play all classes (see my signature) I don't know exactly where everything stands.