It took the Devs a long time to really understand what the "Elder Scrolls atmosphere" even meant.

ESO originally didn't have a proper 1st person mode at all, and as a player who started out in 1st person, this game's combat is totally better designed for 3rd Person POV. Skyrim didn't really have red circles of stupid, you know?

But at the point where we're talking about remaking ESO, I figure we're in "If wishes were fishes, I'd have more perfect roe" territory. I enjoy ESO as an MMORPG with features of both genres - it's never going to perfectly match what I want out of the singleplayer TES games. And I don't need it to, any more than I need the singleplayer TES games to change to give me a real endgame, PVP, or social interactions with other players.


(Ironically, Fallout 76 is so far from what I want out of the singleplayer Fallout games that I never even considered giving it a try. I liked Fallout 3 & 4, but 76 is far enough removed that I'm personally not interested.)

Iccotak wrote: »

The armor and clothing in Blades actually look like something you are wearing as opposed to something that is painted onto your character body.

Honestly, I don't really notice this. Possibly because I'm very used to the way MMOs frequently do that (or, at least, did in the past).

But what do you think?

Mostly, I think that you have different expectations of the game than "MMO" will allow for, and you're comparing it to games that aren't really similar at all.

In the end, this game is an MMO first. That will color & limit what it can do - it's not going to give you the same thing that a single player game can or will.

(and Fallout 76 - which I play and enjoy - is really FO4 made multiplayer. It's not a "Fallout MMO", designed as MMO first. Different design requirements, etc. If it were like ESO, it'd be all of the US slowly built up out of zones, no construction of camps/workshops, less clutter & physics, etc. Whereas ESO made like FO76 would be... Skyrim, but made multiplayer.)

I actually started Blades very recently, too. Honestly, I got to level 9 over a couple of sessions and just lost all motivation. Honestly, for a mobile game, the visuals are great, but that game has absolutely no soul. For all their faults in a modern context, Daggerfall and the old mobile games are better. As a mobile game, and one built on a revenue-making model, a lot has to be forgiven, but no meaningful lore, no effort into a compelling story or good writing and exploration that amounts to one shallow gimmick is pretty much unacceptable for anything parading as an Elder Scrolls game.

I agree with you, @Iccotak , that aesthetic, and *especially* atmosphere are really important. As @VaranisArano pointed out, it took them a long time to understand what these things meant in terms of Elder Scrolls, and I think they still listen very closely to their players regarding these things. I also think its natural to look around at other stuff, especially stuff in the same franchise and look at what ESO got right and wrong. But I also think they're working with a completely different format with a different engine, with resources that need to be dedicated to much more robust, much higher-fidelity play, all on an engine made before 2014.

I think given what we have, the directions they have available to push for Elder Scrolls "feel" are not limited by engine - quality and depth of story writing, integrity with the lore and a genuine feel for its nuance, meaningful exploration and a world that is worth being invested in. Inasmuch as they continue to improve in those directions (and they do), I don't think that visuals matter quite as much. Especially when, as @tsaescishoeshiner pointed out, those visuals amount largely to low-effort knock-off of Skyrim stuff (though I think ESO could take a few more cues from armour/clothing styles from previous games).

What we DO have, and continue to get, is a FAR superior, far more beautiful, infinitely more explorable world. Beyond all the MMO caveats and compromises like grind and balance, keep connecting the zones, and give us reasons just to BE in the world, read the world, explore the world, and I think they're getting it right. If 25 years of Elder Scrolls has taught us anything, its that visuals are ephemeral, and its depth of the lore and exploration of Tamriel that are core.

Iccotak wrote: »

Even the developers have acknowledged it. ESO is not an Elder Scrolls game that’s also online, it’s an MMO that takes place in Elder Scrolls. It’s a subtle but very noticeable difference.

The developers 100% state that it is an Elder Scrolls game, first and foremost and an MMO second.

The degree to which they get that right is definitely a good topic, but they are absolutely intentional in making this as an Elder Scrolls game first.

Because of insane scale difference and lack of systems /features it's easier to focus on looks and that's probably what they should be doing in a mobile game to have more or less successful run. Player choice? Yeah, that's what eso can easily work on buy still refuses to.

Also looking at the game that started it's development in 2007 right after Oblivion release and the one that was first made available like two years ago or something, have no idea how long it was in works (guess not much due to how it was on release) there are obviously some things seems off in comparison.

Going f76 and SP titles route remaking already made and established game into something completely new would just kill one project in favour of completely different one for zero reason, if Beth/Zen would ever feel the urge to make some other "elder scrolls with friends" it should be just a different game for a different audience. And I'm glad that eso is here to stay, there's a lot that can improve on but some things people want as an improvements might be not what devs or other players want at all.

Atmosphere and immersion were always going to take a big hit with the model they went with. Early on, the Elder Scrolls people were very vocal about it, and for good reason. The jaded, ravenous MMO crowd that they gave the game to, a group with collective *generations* of indoctrination into the mindset of what an MMO should and shouldn't be drove development towards grind, burn and consume power-gaming. Special, rare sets you might be lucky enough to come across one day became mandated meta gaming that you WOULD grind for, ("and grind for FAST if you are not trash"), and the mantra quickly became "all into damage", anything else is inefficient and therefore utterly illogical. The built-in trade-offs and checks on unbridled power creep (i.e., loss of survivability) were not robust enough to support any real build diversity because in the hands of that style of gamer, the calibre of challenge was not great enough to force consideration of other concerns, and the developers gave up on it and embraced it. And while "play how you want" is still whispered in certain circles at the Riften Tavern, in practise, anyone who doesn't want to play within a quite narrow range - is consigning themselves to "immersive" wet noodles while their power-gaming co-pugs utterly nuke the world around them, in between weaving in sighs of impatience, disparaging remarks and typing angry posts on Reddit. Thus anything off-meta is a "roleplay build" and relegated to the butt of all sweaty jokes.

To me, that's the type of player who has utterly dominated all forums by sheer volume (if not aggression), and so class and build - for me a very big part of the "Elder Scrolls experience" that has seen heavy compromise, and not necessarily because of the format, but because of the entitlement of one element of the community. There's no room to play a burly orc warrior or a nord berserker who every game tells us eschews magic and relies on their brawn to overcome their foes. Instead we have stamsorcs generating gale force winds presumably with the power of their metabolism and stamdks who do the same to belch noxious fumes at their enemies, while the developers seriously flirt with the idea of stamina healers.

And yes, some of the fundamental MMO stuff is going to innately compromise immersion - dozens of people running around doing the same quest you're doing - or infrastructure choices like in the video you linked (and to be fair, while we hear this guy's view on how they could have achieved better animation tech with the right priorities, we don't get to hear about the countless other demands that the developers must have had to balance, or why they justified this or that decision). But none of the stuff that I talked about was due to baked-in MMO format, rather by giving unbalanced design weight to people who's whole engagement of the game is in opposition to how someone seeking a traditionally immersive experience typically would.

The design space remaining that doesn't represent conflicting goals, and should therefore be only a matter of priority and vision include: 1. lore, 2. story-telling and 3. world. A signature of Elder Scrolls is that each of these things should be rewarded with depth and development when they are engaged and explored. If they get those things right, it will feel like a genuine experience, even with the compromises. The degree to which do is open to debate.

The world spaces are absolutely magnificent, the artists have done an amazing job. Conversely, we've been talking about the borked map since 2014, and missing areas for almost as long, as well as certain zone connections. Of course, an MMO-type decision-maker won't see the value in that - nuance and exploration are the values often alien and poorly understood by that kind. We want the world to feel connected, and to be internally sensible. Isolated pockets surrounded in arbitrary mountain grey space feels more like an unsatisfying Contiki tour rather than "All of Tamriel". If Elsweyr lies just over the hills from Leyawiin, shouldn't we get a sense of that when we go to explore? Shouldn't the world tell that story?

The concept of Striking Locales is a really good one - because if done well, they are their own reward, and give us a reason to be "in" the world. Unfortunately, I think a lot of them are inconsequential and forgettable. I think the world and lore offers a lot of great opportunities for Locales that would reward exploration, and its disappointing when they are looked over for skeletons with diaries. Take for instance Snowhawk, which the developers went to the trouble of acknowledging, according to an interview. But what is it? Can I explore it? Does it have a secret? Can I Interact with it? In doing so, can I learn what Snowhawk Mages are, or what this place is, or anything about the world? What about Jehanna Docks in Wrothgar? We know there's a "Jehanna Road" described in "The Emperor's Guide", but there's nothing there but a poem to a Horker. Is that sensible? Where is Jehanna? Why are there naked docks at the end of the road? Is there some secret or lore or something that will reward our exploration or curiosity about the world? What about the gate from The Reach to Bangkorai? We explorers discovered it at Jackdaw Cove, and should be able to surmise something about the world. Shouldn't it have a corresponding gate on the other side? Shouldn't this be some interesting, dramatic spot with huge historical or political significance, in the heart of the Reach, right on the border of High Rock and Skyrim? The only reward for exploring is the realisation that no care was put into it.

Conversely, the little vignettes are very much on the right track. The random "cute" ones are fun, but my favourites are the ones that acknowledge the world and its lore - the wandering dunmer house mages in Morrowind are by far my favourite, but the Shadowscale encounters were absolutely fantastic, too. Blackwood lacks ones that speak to the world. There are no Bandarii traders, Renrijira sabotuers, no Aldmeri supply wagons moving to eastern elsweyr gate, etc.

The story-telling can be really good, but player device and agency are lacking. Implementing stories that are explorable and interactable through various avenues is a signature of Elder Scrolls story telling. The example that I always give would be to imagine if you had the opportunity to explore the conflict in Wrothgar through the eyes of Urfon Iceheart. The story itself was great, but the railroading was frustrating. I couldn't make decisions I feel like my character would want to make, nor could I explore other points of view- I was handed one and that's the one I had to take, regardless. Other examples include the Dark Brotherhood or the Thieves Guild - both have obvious factions you might prefer to join, other aspects to the same story to explore, but those are neglected and you either railroad yourself down stories you very well may feel don't represent your character, or you don't bother with the content. These sorts of things would add much more exploration (and replayability).

And lore should be the thing that ties these things altogether - exploration and story should both inform, and be informed by the lore. i.e., we can discover entirely new things just by random exploring - but a Jehanna Road should ultimately reward you with Jehanna. Partly this just comes down to consistency, planning and care for the lore. I think that antiquities has been a fantastic concept, I really love the way the lore is delivered - like in an academic debate. The activity too is fun and engaging. But I also think that some of the lore we get amounts to disposable factoids - things that are without further consequence to the game-world. For instance, an antiquity which suggests that there may or may not have been conflict between the Barseibics and the Argonians, is non-committal and inconsequential. But what if there were a series of antiquities that spoke to this issue, so it becomes an actual thing? What if we can actually explore little bits of it while travelling through the world? What if there are clues amongst the ruins of Siliyanorn? The world should echo that lore, reinforce it. Its great to read about it, but let us experience it, piece it together by exploring in various ways.

These are the important elements of immersion and exploration, for me. Some must be lost for the format of the game, but I think a lot of that Elder Scrolls experience can be adapted to the format, or at least persist alongside it - those things that don't necessarily clash with the values of power-gaming, grind, and trad MMO values. The only threat to those things are lower priority and failing to recognise their value, or poor execution through not understanding what exploration means. I think that largely, the key things are there; striking locales, explorable vignettes, zone connections, and antiquities are all great devices that make for rich exploration potential. We just want to see more of them, and with more weight and meaning.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Some must be lost for the format of the game, but I think a lot of that Elder Scrolls experience can be adapted to the format, or at least persist alongside it - those things that don't necessarily clash with the values of power-gaming, grind, and trad MMO values.

Heh. This reminds me of all those old threads on TES forums, with people talking about the endless min-max grinding they did to gain ultimate power and/or quickly maxed out skills.

Exploiting the Enchant/Alchemy/Blacksmithing loop in Skyrim; bunny-hopping up & down stairs to level Athletics in Obliv/MW; power-leveling magic in Morrowind by casting spells til out of magika in the basement of the Mage Guild, resting in a nearby bed to recover, repeat ad nauseum; 100% reflect / chameleon / whatever armor; making grotesquely OP spells with Obliv's spellcrafting; etc.

So, yeah - for some people Grind & Power-gaming is part of the core TES experience since forever.


...and god forbid (in one of their "Beth needs to add more difficulty! I can kill anything in one hit" threads) that you suggest they maybe don't do that Super Effective Power Gaming™ thing on their next character. You'd get yelled at about how dare you tell them to "self nerf" and the game should absolutely be balanced to challenge their ultimate cheese build! They must always play at 150% efficiency, anything else would be wrong! /sigh

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

These are the important elements of immersion and exploration, for me. Some must be lost for the format of the game, but I think a lot of that Elder Scrolls experience can be adapted to the format, or at least persist alongside it - those things that don't necessarily clash with the values of power-gaming, grind, and trad MMO values. The only threat to those things are lower priority and failing to recognise their value, or poor execution through not understanding what exploration means. I think that largely, the key things are there; striking locales, explorable vignettes, zone connections, and antiquities are all great devices that make for rich exploration potential. We just want to see more of them, and with more weight and meaning.

The other threat that you don't mention is limited time and money.

In your examples, you've repeatedly offered suggestions that would cost time and money over and above what the Devs have already done.

Explore Wrothgar from the perspective of Urfon Iceheart by giving the player real agency in the questline? Right, well, that's going to require more voiced lines at minimum and - if you want real agency - likely more quests that further explore the faction.

A Jehanna Docks or Jehanna Road ultimately leading to Jehanna to reward exploration? Right, now we're talking about adding a whole new city. If it's not constructed using existing assets, add in time and money for the art team to come up with new stuff, and so on.

That's not to poo-poo your ideas. I'd enjoy most of them.

Rather, I do think it's important to note that Developer time and money is an important limiting factor when it comes to turning "disposable" references into full locations, factions, and quests.

Finally, there's profitability to consider. Yes, the Devs could cram their DLC full of stuff if they had unlimited time, but they have a deadline to meet, or else they lose money compared to the quarterly release schedule. They can't cram much more into the time they have, or else you get more corners cut elsewhere or subject the Dev team to crunch, which isn't good either. And sorry, but it's not like ESO's playerbase wants to pay much more for DLC or put up with delays in the release schedule in order to fully flesh out the regions in the ways you suggest.

I'd argue that the Devs do recognize the value that those things add to the game. The kicker is that they don't add enough value to overcome the loss of profit it would take to implement them in the ways you suggest.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Some must be lost for the format of the game, but I think a lot of that Elder Scrolls experience can be adapted to the format, or at least persist alongside it - those things that don't necessarily clash with the values of power-gaming, grind, and trad MMO values.

Heh. This reminds me of all those old threads on TES forums, with people talking about the endless min-max grinding they did to gain ultimate power and/or quickly maxed out skills.

Exploiting the Enchant/Alchemy/Blacksmithing loop in Skyrim; bunny-hopping up & down stairs to level Athletics in Obliv/MW; power-leveling magic in Morrowind by casting spells til out of magika in the basement of the Mage Guild, resting in a nearby bed to recover, repeat ad nauseum; 100% reflect / chameleon / whatever armor; making grotesquely OP spells with Obliv's spellcrafting; etc.

So, yeah - for some people Grind & Power-gaming is part of the core TES experience since forever.


...and god forbid (in one of their "Beth needs to add more difficulty! I can kill anything in one hit" threads) that you suggest they maybe don't do that Super Effective Power Gaming™ thing on their next character. You'd get yelled at about how dare you tell them to "self nerf" and the game should absolutely be balanced to challenge their ultimate cheese build! They must always play at 150% efficiency, anything else would be wrong! /sigh

Wait, you're telling me I shouldn't play a sneak archer for the Anniversary Edition?



You don't actually need to exploit gameplay loops to, ah, outgrow the difficulty of Skyrim. Or Morrowind for that matter.

And truth is, you really don't need to in ESO either. Once I hit about 10-15k DPS, which does not require any particular gear, overland questing becomes a cakewalk for me. That's not even "self nerf" territory. It's pretty much "Hey, Varanis, could you unlearn how to play the game?"

The last time questing was hard for me, I was a newbie who didn't know about food, who was playing in first person so I couldn't see most of the red circles of stupid, and who hadn't yet learned the mechanics of most of the enemies. Let me tell you, Harvesters got a lot easier when I figured out how to interrupt them!


I'm not expecting ZOS to balance ESO for ultimate cheese builds here. I'm just saying that it's not like it takes an exploit or excessive grinding to hit the point where players "outgrow" the difficulty of ESO's overland content.

Iccotak wrote: »

and god forbid (in one of their "Beth needs to add more difficulty! I can kill anything in one hit" threads) that you suggest they maybe don't do that Super Effective Power Gaming™ thing on their next character. You'd get yelled at about how dare you tell them to "self nerf" and the game should absolutely be balanced to challenge their ultimate cheese build! They must always play at 150% efficiency, anything else would be wrong! /sigh

This point I really disagree with. Any new character that I have started has had a breeze with the game, without champion points, and without any assistance from my other characters.

Yeah, that was more talking about the single-player TES games, not the MMO. /shrug

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

...and god forbid (in one of their "Beth needs to add more difficulty! I can kill anything in one hit" threads) that you suggest they maybe don't do that Super Effective Power Gaming™ thing on their next character. You'd get yelled at about how dare you tell them to "self nerf" and the game should absolutely be balanced to challenge their ultimate cheese build! They must always play at 150% efficiency, anything else would be wrong! /sigh

Wait, you're telling me I shouldn't play a sneak archer for the Anniversary Edition?

Heh, yeah I love my sneak archers. So, of course, my original 'main' ESO character is a sneak archer Stamblade.... who sucks. Because that doesn't work in this game.


But (if I recall correctly) they were usually doing the Smith->Enchant->Alchemy loop to 100, then maxing out sneak & daggers, and doing ultra sneak backstabs for 10's of thousands of damage. Or something like that, it's been a decade since those threads. Heh.