ixthUA wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

If you are in overland it is easy enough not to require proc sets.
If you are in a normal dungeon it is also easy enough.
If you are in a trial / vet dungeon you should have a healer and a tank, who will buff your stats to reach maximum proc set values.

Apart from there being no maximum you're missing the most crucial point: In the very situation where you could have respectable output from proc sets they are at the same time outperformed by other sets even more because these sets profit a lot more from trial group support than proc sets do. Proc Sets in trials are the exception for a reason, and outside of trials they're no better.

My guess is that they addressed one issue, which changed balance. People complained about overland and normal dungeons being too easy a lot, i guess ZOS listened.
I once made a poll and only 6% voted for easier overland, while 50% voted for harder overland. By this statistic ZOS could nerf proc sets by 25% to make people happier.

I don't think a nerf to proc sets will make overland any harder. There is no challenge there to an experienced player (as my level 14 necro who's wearing mis-matched level 6 gear with no CP's spent will tell you).

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

For PvE flat damage or crit sets were always better than procs. The most significant change recently was monster helms which hurt in a way but they introduced a mythic to offset that. Unfortunately it’s gated behind an upgrade.

People keep claiming this without considering the fact that a lot of us don't care about hitting super high DPS numbers, or being able to tank an entire zone's worth of enemies, or heal an entire zone's worth of players. Some people want to have fun theorycrafting their own builds and have them still be fairly powerful, even if it's not meta or BiS. What's the point of even having all these proc sets if everyone would just run flat damage/stat sets because "they're better"? ZOS might as well remove most proc sets from the game at that point. The reason they're there is to give people a choice, but when they get nerfed so much that the average player loses even more ability to do the content they like, that choice gets strangled more and more. If they wanted to bring the power down on stuff, they could have made the requirements lower than they are so people could still hit them easily enough without having their off-meta builds gutted.

And yes, when you lose 10k off of 30k, I consider that being gutted. I can still do the same content I've been doing, but it's gutted in the sense that it's not as fun because now some of that content takes longer and is harder than it really needs to be.

Arunei wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

For PvE flat damage or crit sets were always better than procs. The most significant change recently was monster helms which hurt in a way but they introduced a mythic to offset that. Unfortunately it’s gated behind an upgrade.

People keep claiming this without considering the fact that a lot of us don't care about hitting super high DPS numbers, or being able to tank an entire zone's worth of enemies, or heal an entire zone's worth of players. Some people want to have fun theorycrafting their own builds and have them still be fairly powerful, even if it's not meta or BiS. What's the point of even having all these proc sets if everyone would just run flat damage/stat sets because "they're better"? ZOS might as well remove most proc sets from the game at that point. The reason they're there is to give people a choice, but when they get nerfed so much that the average player loses even more ability to do the content they like, that choice gets strangled more and more. If they wanted to bring the power down on stuff, they could have made the requirements lower than they are so people could still hit them easily enough without having their off-meta builds gutted.

And yes, when you lose 10k off of 30k, I consider that being gutted. I can still do the same content I've been doing, but it's gutted in the sense that it's not as fun because now some of that content takes longer and is harder than it really needs to be.

I was speaking more of monster helms which haven’t been nerfed nearly as hard as people believe. At least we aren’t rolling back to a time where the best proc sets had an 8-10% chance to proc based on conditions. And which proc set was doing 10k DPS? I would say any set like that is over performing.

ixthUA wrote: »

If you are in overland it is easy enough not to require proc sets.
If you are in a normal dungeon it is also easy enough.
If you are in a trial / vet dungeon you should have a healer and a tank, who will buff your stats to reach maximum proc set values.

This sentiment is in opposition to the 'play as you want' mantra of ESO and the Elder Scrolls series as a whole. Players employ Proc Sets for different reasons and playstyles. Many players like Proc Sets for the flavor they bring to gameplay and don't want to be forced into the meta to be as effective as they were originally. Let players play as they want and not be punished for it.

Jazraena wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Point being: That request has nothing to do with Proc Sets. Character Strength wasn't gutted overall, just build diversity.

Which pisses off those of us enjoying to make builds that aren't meta, yet at least approach performance close to it while fulfilling some visual or playstyle concept better than just slapping MS/Medusa on a character.

I guess they need time to scale all sets with damage/resource/health, proc sets being first.
From what i've seen Sirroria x Bahsei works much better than MS x Medusa.

Again, the point people keep either missing or just ignoring entirely is a lot of us DON'T CARE what's best in meta because we DON'T PLAY meta! People can come into threads about this matter and go on and on about "sets X and Y do so much more damage/allow for better tanking/let you heal more!" and it just completely ignores that many of us don't give a hoot about that, because we prefer playing with our own theorycrafted builds. They're more fun for us, more accessible, and work better for our playstyles. If we cared about squeezing out every possible bit of DPS, tanking, or healing possible, we wouldn't care about the proc set nerf because we wouldn't have been using those sets to begin with.

I just gave an example that there is still build diversity, as not everyone uses medusa x MS.
I like my own builds and still keep using my proc and monster sets. When i am solo they are weaker, but when i do veteran dungeons they are back to their original power, so i dont mind.
Proc sets were only really nerfed in PVP, overland and normal dungeons. Aside from PVP, people constantly complain for overland and normal dungeons to be made harder, and it partially happened through proc sets nerf.

You and I have very different ideas about what constitutes 'build diversity'.

Proc Scaling severely limits build diversity and doesn't make the game any more balanced either.

ixthUA wrote: »

I just gave an example that there is still build diversity, as not everyone uses medusa x MS.
I like my own builds and still keep using my proc and monster sets. When i am solo they are weaker, but when i do veteran dungeons they are back to their original power, so i dont mind.
Proc sets were only really nerfed in PVP, overland and normal dungeons. Aside from PVP, people constantly complain for overland and normal dungeons to be made harder, and it partially happened through proc sets nerf.

But the problem is exactly that, overland and normal dungeons, things that should be easier, are becoming harder for the casual player, and vet stuff even MORE so. ZOS didn't introduce the proc set nerf because of the minority of people wanting harder overland, they did it for the same reason they always introduce nerfs like this: sets overperforming in PvP, and the small percent of top-tier players who can smash through the hardest content without much effort. The only problem is those people who can make sets overperform in PvP and smash through the hardest content are very rarely affected by these nerfs, as they'll simply crunch the numbers, come up with new OP metas, and continue wrecking people in PvP and bosses in PvE.

And unfortunately, neutering proc sets does NOT encourage build diveristy. It only pushes more people into using the same flat damage/stat sets that everyone keeps saying is the best to use. That's the opposite of build diversity.

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I was speaking more of monster helms which haven’t been nerfed nearly as hard as people believe. At least we aren’t rolling back to a time where the best proc sets had an 8-10% chance to proc based on conditions. And which proc set was doing 10k DPS? I would say any set like that is over performing.

It's true, like I said before it was nice when they made proc sets trigger on certain effects rather than have a % to trigger on those effects, even though they did that less for our benefit and more because they were trying to reduce the number of checks the game needs to make and all. But unfortunately, we can't say "well since Monster sets weren't hit too hard the proc set nerf isn't bad" when it also effects every other proc set in the game.

And nah, I didn't mean any particular set was doing 10k itself haha. I meant I lost 10k DPS overall. Like I said, my WW stamsorc currently has Velidreth, Blood Moon, and Tzogvin's. None of those sets alone is letting me hit for 10k, that would indeed be overperforming. But my DPS before the proc set nerf was 30k, and after it dropped my DPS went down to 20k.

ixthUA wrote: »

But monster sets are not neutered in pve, they just scale with the content player is doing. And crit was nerfed few months ago, which is still the most popular stat.

They don't scale with content at all. They scale with how much you manage to stack one particular stat.

Sure, I can build my character with a specific race, trait, enchant, and weapon combination and nearly reach the same proc power I had before, but that just hurts build diversity even more, because the combination needed to get above 6000 spell damage is so specific.

Alternately, I could rely on groupmates to buff my spell damage (although, even then, I have to make some effort to stack it myself), but that just forces them into specific builds, which hurts their build diversity while also requiring me to only do content with premade groups.

Any way you look at it, the proc scaling change hurt build diversity by making a large number of already off-meta builds completely nonviable.

ixthUA wrote: »

But monster sets are not neutered in pve, they just scale with the content player is doing. And crit was nerfed few months ago, which is still the most popular stat.

Yeah, as was mentioned, the proc set nerf doesn't make proc sets scale to your content. I think you're getting confused with the scaling that happens from levels 1-50. Also, I'm confused why you and the other person are so focused on Monster sets, when those make up only a portion of proc sets overall. It wasn't just Monster sets that were impacted by the nerf, it was ALL proc sets, so I'm genuinely confused over why only Monster sets seem to matter.

Arunei wrote: »

Yeah, as was mentioned, the proc set nerf doesn't make proc sets scale to your content. I think you're getting confused with the scaling that happens from levels 1-50. Also, I'm confused why you and the other person are so focused on Monster sets, when those make up only a portion of proc sets overall. It wasn't just Monster sets that were impacted by the nerf, it was ALL proc sets, so I'm genuinely confused over why only Monster sets seem to matter.

Proc sets scale with character attributes. In hard content, when you have group buffs to increase attributes, they reach maximum values. In easy content, without attribute buffs, proc sets reduce their values. Isn't it scaling?

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

That's not scaling to the content. Scaling to the content means that the procs suddenly get stronger just because you used them in a trial, regardless of what your teammates are or are not doing.

Oblivion damage is an example of something that scales to the content you're doing.

But when you do hard content proc sets scale to full power, what is it if not scaling? Devs could remove scaling from proc and monster sets and they would always stay at minimal power.