Why Magicka feels so weak compared to Stamina for PvP?

CaptainVenom · August 2021

No matter how much spell damage and penetration I have, stamina characters always perform better in every aspect. Is this just me? There's always someone with a 2-h, stunning you out of nowhere and using Executioner, and not to mention werewolves, which is beyond overpowered.

Is there any super secret on how to pvp with magicka damage? Or is Stamina truly superior?

Vevvev · August 2021

Werewolves are terribly weak, but as for Stamina builds in general.... aye they're pretty painful lol. The best way to fight these stamina builds is to build over 20k physical resistance because most of them have insane weapon damage, and there are a few that get their effective pen up to 20k.

My magDK in light armor this patch can get about 23k resistances if I'm using the Lady mundus and a few divines, but if I truly wanted Nirnhoned on the minor pieces would be better resistance wise by a few points. Also, going stage 3+ vampire is really good on magicka builds looking for extra defense, and I know some will throw on a few pieces of medium and heavy armor to add more build flexibility and/or reduce the light armor martial damage taken penalty. If you fight in CP the direct damage reduction star is another good choice imo.

The long and the short of it is that you need to build heavily into physical resistance and damage mitigation. Also have a lot of stamina on hand for the much needed dodge rolls, blocks, and break frees you'll be casting. Interestingly enough you can animation cancel the break free animation with a dodge roll so if you get stunned you can super quickly dodge any follow up attacks... server willing anyways...

SkaraMinoc · August 2021

Werewolves are definitely not overpowered and Magicka is not weak if you play well.

In general I would say Stam PvP has a lower barrier to entry but this is not necessarily true as some Stam builds are very high skill ceiling.

CaptainVenom · August 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Werewolves are terribly weak, but as for Stamina builds in general.... aye they're pretty painful lol. The best way to fight these stamina builds is to build over 20k physical resistance because most of them have insane weapon damage, and there are a few that get their effective pen up to 20k.

My magDK in light armor this patch can get about 23k resistances if I'm using the Lady mundus and a few divines, but if I truly wanted Nirnhoned on the minor pieces would be better resistance wise by a few points. Also, going stage 3+ vampire is really good on magicka builds looking for extra defense, and I know some will throw on a few pieces of medium and heavy armor to add more build flexibility and/or reduce the light armor martial damage taken penalty. If you fight in CP the direct damage reduction star is another good choice imo.

The long and the short of it is that you need to build heavily into physical resistance and damage mitigation. Also have a lot of stamina on hand for the much needed dodge rolls, blocks, and break frees you'll be casting. Interestingly enough you can animation cancel the break free animation with a dodge roll so if you get stunned you can super quickly dodge any follow up attacks... server willing anyways...

Yeah... I got up to 25k resistances when buffed, even with light armor... also 10k pen and about 13k damage on my main spammable. However, when I need to attack... somehow its damage is ridiculously low.

Vevvev · August 2021

CaptainVenom wrote: »

Yeah... I got up to 25k resistances when buffed, even with light armor... also 10k pen and about 13k damage on my main spammable. However, when I need to attack... somehow its damage is ridiculously low.

That has to do with the stamina build's defenses. Medium armor, their preferred choice of defensive gear, has no damage taken increase and pretty decent spell and physical resistance. The one thing we magicka builds have over stamina builds though is penetration.
Magicka builds can build up a LOT of penetration thanks to light armor's passive, and you can further increase this value with the sharpened trait and other methods. My preferred way to get a ton of spell penetration is the Balorgh set, which is very popular with magicka builds since ZOS's change to proc set scaling, however with the new sources of spell damage boosting once only exclusively available to stamina builds with weapon damage is available to us this patch. Sets like Zaans might become used by magicka builds again. We'll see.

Also judging by your signature I'll take a wild guess you main Sorcerer. Sorcerers fight stamina builds by making sure they give them as little chances to hit them as possible with Bolt Escape and the major expedition buff given by Lightning Form. You also have access to an unblockable stun called Streak much like how I as a Dragonknight have Fossilize. To effectively use this ability in PvP you need to get your timing juuuust right. Placing a curse on your foe, dropping meteor, and then quickly casting Crystal Frags before streaking through your target right as the curse and meteor's damage hits is an absolutely devastating combo. The only counters to this tactic is blocking and mistform, which is why streak is used in order to secure the devastating attack. Immovability potions or just doing this when they have CC immunity will inevitably cause the burst to fail if they successfully block it so it requires monitoring your target's status. There are other burst combos, but as a DK main I don't know Sorc as well as some of the other people on these forums.

Gilvoth · August 2021

CaptainVenom wrote: »

No matter how much spell damage and penetration I have, stamina characters always perform better in every aspect. Is this just me? There's always someone with a 2-h, stunning you out of nowhere and using Executioner, and not to mention werewolves, which is beyond overpowered.

Is there any super secret on how to pvp with magicka damage? Or is Stamina truly superior?

i have the exact oppisite experience.
i believe magicka builds like those in sorcerers and wardens not only kill me and groups of people in pvp but also all the others around me. i see them wrip, shred, dominate and kill others in just what looks like 3 hits and its usually instant.
our experience in eso is opposite, i believe magicka builds do Far mare Damage then stamina builds do and its very noticeable.
just honest feedback.

PhoenixGrey · August 2021

There was a small phase between Murkmire and Elsywr when mag sorcs were a competitive magicka class and magden in morrowind maybe.

Apart from that Mag classes are 1vX fodder for stam classes.

Unified_Gaming · August 2021

The issue you describe is simply due to stamina skills having many bonus effects letting them stack more passive damage buffs.

Dizzying swing - does loads of damage (14k+ tool tips), sets off balance allowing for an easy stun, if can't be stunned will snare the target and is very cheap. Also it doesn't check if you look at the target but only checks if you're in their radius I.e. cast the skill and you can look and face away from them but if are in the radius of the skill it'll still land.

Rally - major brutality increasing weapon damage by 20%, minor endurance increasing stamina regen and a burst heal. The special weapon - frenzied momentum also gives them free damage on the skill which many stam classes use as well.

Consider the magicka equivalent:

Degen - major sorcery and a dot NO HEAL OR SUSTAIN BUFF

So yeah this is a big factor 🤔

ANewHand · August 2021

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have the exact oppisite experience.
i believe magicka builds like those in sorcerers and wardens not only kill me and groups of people in pvp

Are you playing BGs or Cyro? I'm mostly in Cyro and I rarely see Magicka Wardens who aren't healers, and besides the few MagSorcs the only mag builds I notice are NB bombers.

I do however get bonked all the time by Lethal Arrow gankers and the very annoying and ubiquitous Frenzied Momentum + Dizzying Swing 😒

At least the Lethal Arrow NBs are usually fairly squishy when you're lucky enough to catch them/snipe them back.

Biro123 · August 2021

I may be wrong on this, but I think big a factor is sustain.

IIRC (not checked lately) most Mag skills cost a lot more to cast than stam, so they massively rely on light-armour passives for cost-reduction/mag-recov to sustain.

This makes speccing into heavy armour really difficult without having to drop damage stats to make up for the massive sustain hit.

So Mag has this choice of light+damage+squishy or heavy with poor damage(and accordingly poor heal-strength and shield strength)
Good Stam builds can get it all (to a larger degree anyway)

ResidentContrarian · August 2021

Magicka (and hybrids) take a long time to find a good fit in builds.

For everyone using them it's going to be different in PvP because of things you either do or don't do. For example, the builds I use would make people's head spin, but they fit me well because I always play in an active way and not passively.

Compare that to stam chars that usually use the same skills, and same gear sets. The performance is consistent, and you usually only have to manage only one resource.

I find stamina easier because everything is clearer and usually doesn't get nerfed, where mag is subject to "balance" changes in the classes that usually have a more profound effect on the mag than stam side. An example of that being the increased damage reduction across the board pushing mag DK into an even less favorable position, but affecting stam DK less.

Ippokrates · August 2021

Because of Skyrim.

Where are the times of Morrowind when you could wipe out the whole city with custom made fireball...

Nah, I am joking. You can do it too in Skyrim

https://youtu.be/H9nMezJvr-k

Wing · August 2021

because of trials.

the things that make stam good in pvp do not matter in trials or large groups. that is what ESO balances around.

Vevvev · August 2021

Biro123 wrote: »

I may be wrong on this, but I think big a factor is sustain.

IIRC (not checked lately) most Mag skills cost a lot more to cast than stam, so they massively rely on light-armour passives for cost-reduction/mag-recov to sustain.

This makes speccing into heavy armour really difficult without having to drop damage stats to make up for the massive sustain hit.

So Mag has this choice of light+damage+squishy or heavy with poor damage(and accordingly poor heal-strength and shield strength)
Good Stam builds can get it all (to a larger degree anyway)

That weird balance exists due to the fact stamina builds also have to block, break free, dodge roll, bash, and sprint with their primary damage dealing resource. If Stamina abilities cost as much as magicka ones then there would be a massive issue on their part when it comes to personal defense. Something magicka builds don't worry too much about since with the proper food and CP you'll have more than enough stamina to get out of a sticky situation.

Biro123 · August 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I may be wrong on this, but I think big a factor is sustain.

IIRC (not checked lately) most Mag skills cost a lot more to cast than stam, so they massively rely on light-armour passives for cost-reduction/mag-recov to sustain.

This makes speccing into heavy armour really difficult without having to drop damage stats to make up for the massive sustain hit.

So Mag has this choice of light+damage+squishy or heavy with poor damage(and accordingly poor heal-strength and shield strength)
Good Stam builds can get it all (to a larger degree anyway)

That weird balance exists due to the fact stamina builds also have to block, break free, dodge roll, bash, and sprint with their primary damage dealing resource. If Stamina abilities cost as much as magicka ones then there would be a massive issue on their part when it comes to personal defense. Something magicka builds don't worry too much about since with the proper food and CP you'll have more than enough stamina to get out of a sticky situation.

While that's true, Stam builds also commonly slot a number of abilities that cost mag, so their Stan bar can still get a break while these are used. Some classes more than others though.

universal_wrath · August 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Werewolves are terribly weak, but as for Stamina builds in general.... aye they're pretty painful lol. The best way to fight these stamina builds is to build over 20k physical resistance because most of them have insane weapon damage, and there are a few that get their effective pen up to 20k.

My magDK in light armor this patch can get about 23k resistances if I'm using the Lady mundus and a few divines, but if I truly wanted Nirnhoned on the minor pieces would be better resistance wise by a few points. Also, going stage 3+ vampire is really good on magicka builds looking for extra defense, and I know some will throw on a few pieces of medium and heavy armor to add more build flexibility and/or reduce the light armor martial damage taken penalty. If you fight in CP the direct damage reduction star is another good choice imo.

The long and the short of it is that you need to build heavily into physical resistance and damage mitigation. Also have a lot of stamina on hand for the much needed dodge rolls, blocks, and break frees you'll be casting. Interestingly enough you can animation cancel the break free animation with a dodge roll so if you get stunned you can super quickly dodge any follow up attacks... server willing anyways...

I would suggest lower resistance and more HP and damage mitigation bonuses like protection. New hrathger chill set does crazy damage the more resist you have.

WabanakiWarrior · August 2021

CaptainVenom wrote: »

No matter how much spell damage and penetration I have, stamina characters always perform better in every aspect. Is this just me? There's always someone with a 2-h, stunning you out of nowhere and using Executioner, and not to mention werewolves, which is beyond overpowered.

Is there any super secret on how to pvp with magicka damage? Or is Stamina truly superior?

Lots of helpful stuff in this thread! My suggestion would be to build a stam toon yourself and see how it feels. They can hit like a truck, but its limiting in key aspects. You need to experience for yourself.

ketsparrowhawk · August 2021

That is as it should be. Stam builds are supposed to hit harder and get more kills. If mag builds could get the same kill-counts AND provide the group support that only mag builds are capable of, there wouldn't be any reason to ever play a stam build. All of my mag chars do 50/50 damage and heals, and I prioritize support when needed (ex: execute a low-health enemy VS save one of my allies with a heal.. I'll choose save the ally). That's what gives mag builds an advantage.. the ability to lift up your allies, which allows those allies to support you in return.

CaptainVenom · August 2021

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

That is as it should be. Stam builds are supposed to hit harder and get more kills. If mag builds could get the same kill-counts AND provide the group support that only mag builds are capable of, there wouldn't be any reason to ever play a stam build. All of my mag chars do 50/50 damage and heals, and I prioritize support when needed (ex: execute a low-health enemy VS save one of my allies with a heal.. I'll choose save the ally). That's what gives mag builds an advantage.. the ability to lift up your allies, which allows those allies to support you in return.

Implying there are no stamina support skills such as Bone Shield, Vigor, and even a class with stamina heals like Warden.

Like... seriously?

ketsparrowhawk · August 2021

CaptainVenom wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

That is as it should be. Stam builds are supposed to hit harder and get more kills. If mag builds could get the same kill-counts AND provide the group support that only mag builds are capable of, there wouldn't be any reason to ever play a stam build. All of my mag chars do 50/50 damage and heals, and I prioritize support when needed (ex: execute a low-health enemy VS save one of my allies with a heal.. I'll choose save the ally). That's what gives mag builds an advantage.. the ability to lift up your allies, which allows those allies to support you in return.

Implying there are no stamina support skills such as Bone Shield, Vigor, and even a class with stamina heals like Warden.

Like... seriously?

Warden is the one exception if they build for it, but even they can't give the level of support a typical mag build can. I have a stamDen healer and he is fun to play but he doesn't hold a candle to any one of my mag char's healing abilities. Yes there are a handful of stam support skills but don't pretend that those builds can give the same level of support that even a non-healer-spec mag build can provide.