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Build diversity question
rauyran
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Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
The other option would be that sets scale off either magic OR stam (like how it used to be for most sets). In that scenario, a set is only useful for one. In the new scenario, they are arguably useful for both.
I will concede that it does feel like a lazy approach, as everything new seems to scale with both AND give hybrid stats in the 2-4 slots. My issue is that it feels like we are moving towards a point where there is no distinction between magic and stamina. I think at the extreme end that heavily favors a stamina build, but probably a different debate.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 24, 2021 4:17PM0 -
rauyran✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
The other option would be that sets scale off either magic OR stam (like how it used to be for most sets). In that scenario, a set is only useful for one. In the new scenario, they are arguably useful for both.
I will concede that it does feel like a lazy approach, as everything new seems to scale with both AND give hybrid stats in the 2-4 slots. My issue is that it feels like we are moving towards a point where there is no distinction between magic and stamina. I think at the extreme end that heavily favors a stamina build, but probably a different debate.
I think sets could just as easily scale off the total of stam and magicka, allowing us to mix the stats more freely.
Agree that there seems very little difference between the two stats now apart from skill costs. The next logical step would be to allow diversity in skill selection by making the cost come from your highest stat.0 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have hybrid builds, they're working fine for me. But I'm also 1500+ CP and solo/casual player so mileage will vary. I have two characters that are true hybrids, both Dunmer, one is a Templar and the other is a Dragon Knight who use a combination of both Stamina and Magicka abilities mixed together with a strong focus towards Stamina. They use 5pc Diamond's Victory, 5pc Shacklebreakers, and 2pc Agility.
Then I have 5 former pseudo tanks who used to be solo World Boss stompers, they were more defensive versions of my Magicka DD with heavy armor and a couple defensive spells. Since Companions were added that was no longer needed, I converted them into pure hybrids going from 5 Heavy/2 Light to 3 Heavy/2 Medium/2 Light and split their abilities Front Bar all Stamina and Back Bar all Magicka. This group uses 5pc Bahraha's Curse, 5pc Hist Whisperer, 2pc Agility Weapons, 2pc Willpower Lightning Staff. They actually work quite well in solo overland and normal dungeons, my playstyle swaps bar so frequently I don't run out of resources to either one and alternate on the fly quite easily. Only the Warden tank stayed full Magicka because of Frostbite and Betty Netch doesn't split resources.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
The other option would be that sets scale off either magic OR stam (like how it used to be for most sets). In that scenario, a set is only useful for one. In the new scenario, they are arguably useful for both.
I will concede that it does feel like a lazy approach, as everything new seems to scale with both AND give hybrid stats in the 2-4 slots. My issue is that it feels like we are moving towards a point where there is no distinction between magic and stamina. I think at the extreme end that heavily favors a stamina build, but probably a different debate.
I think sets could just as easily scale off the total of stam and magicka, allowing us to mix the stats more freely.
Agree that there seems very little difference between the two stats now apart from skill costs. The next logical step would be to allow diversity in skill selection by making the cost come from your highest stat.
Which at that point, why even have a separate bar for magic and stam.0 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel that part of the problem is that over time ZOS whittled down the distinctions between what Magicka enabled versus what Stamina enabled skill wise and how they operated in more gameplay manners. This meant that they became more or less two identical flavors, with only more artificial elements being the differentiating factor—armor weight, weapon type, etc. In effect, once a player chose Magicka or Stamina, a significant number of basic choices were already made for them.
This might have been fine in another game, but as ESO is under the "Elder Scrolls" title, there was an expectation among some players that the wider variety of choices would be available to players when making their characters, similar to the main series titles. The restrictions that armor weights and weapon types seemed to impose ran counter to expectations in a series with classes like Battlemages prominent in its lore.
So, naturally, ZOS—in response to feedback from players—has begun removing some of those "restrictive" barriers to build choices. This in itself is a good thing. There's no reason that using more Magicka-based skills should mean not being able to effectively use Medium Armor or a sword. And, neither should a more Stamina focus deny use of Light Armor or Staves. The issue comes in that lowering those individual divisions of armor weight and weapon type only exposes how similar Magicka and Stamina were and that there were few remaining differences in how a "mage" operates as opposed to a "warrior". It means that the lack of distinction in what Magicka enables versus Stamina is clear.
I don't think that the answer is to go back on recent changes. No, that would be returning to an effective restriction of player choice. I think there just needs to be some redefining of the differences between what kinds of abilities are more Stamina-based and which are more Magicka-based, rather than an increasing amount of abilities which essentially have a blue and green flavor. That way there are more clear incentives as to why one would go "pure" mag or warrior, or why one might be tempted to run a "hybrid" build.0 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
Because of the way scaling works, and it would be too easy to get huge damage or effects off of sets that would benefit from either both stam and mag or weapon and spell damage scaling.
For example, when building a hybrid on live right now, I can get 35k 22k stam or 33k 30k stam on builds with similar damage output. Guess which one I choose, even if I were going to slot a proc build...?
Or what about hybrids with 6k/6k weapon and spell damage (or more consdiering that is in a self-buff PvP environment without continuous, in a raid...)?
In the scenario of addition of stats, being a hybrid would outperform the scaling of a pure build, and considering some 5-pieces have extra weapon damage, spell damage, max mag, or max stam littered to make up for lackluster effects, one would only need to start slotting these 5-pieces and setup a hybrid in a way that will always gain more stats than a pure build would through stam+mag or weapon+spell scaling.
That would be easy to achieve because of tri-stat runes, triune, and again, the overloaded sets that currently are not too problematic for balance unless sets had a concrete cap.
Right now, the sets are balanced in that most procs are not compatible with hybrids without sacrifice of stats somewhere (crit, damage, sustain,defense) and that is what keeps a hybrid from totally eclipsing a pure stam or mag build. With your suggestion, there would be zero reason to not be a hybrid if you can exceed the power of a large pure stam or mag builds, then gain the support of procs too with little to no downsides.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would not recommend using sets that scale off of maximum resources for a hybrid build.
Every set in the game doesn't need to be optimal for hybrid builds.0 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭Can someone explain the logic around making sets scale off the maximum of either magicka or stamina? How is this supposed to increase diversity of builds. I think it leads to fewer hybrids because you are forced to put all points into one of the stats to get the best from the set.
They don't. Most scale with weapon or spell damage, whichever is higher..0