Why so serious?

moo_2021 · August 2021

encountered two others saying I shouldn't do X and Y today for the first time. I guess that's rather lucky considering many players frequently complain here about others or being complained by others.

But why? I played some FPS previously and nobody would ever complain about the team, just have fun killing or dying to do something.

What's wrong with slow learning, repeated failures or losses? I remember how happy I was when we (PUG) finally finished a vet dungeon without real tank, got wiped several times and resurrected each other in turn.

Are most MMOs always that serious or is ESO special? Either way if there are many serious players, it'd be nice if ZOS allows us to tag ourselves as professional or casual, so we don't mix in dungeon finder or BGs, not that I don't enjoy their angry comments but I know many are like me and have no real intention to learn to play the game properly

Malkiv · August 2021

It might be pledges that you were getting grouped into. People can get salty about pledges. I used to get a little salty when people would get into vDLC pledge dungeons, and were unable to perform HM. Now I just do DLC HM pledges with people I know. Sometimes with one DPS rando.

TPishek · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

it'd be nice if ZOS allows us to tag ourselves as professional or casual, so we don't mix in dungeon finder or BGs, not that I don't enjoy their angry comments but I know many are like me and have no real intention to learn to play the game properly

That would be what vet vs normal would be for I imagine.

moo_2021 · August 2021

Malkiv wrote: »

It might be pledges that you were getting grouped into. People can get salty about pledges.

One of them is pledge yes.

But why? Pledge is random, not farming runs. It's not like people need to rush.

redspecter23 · August 2021

Play however you want but once you're in a group with other people, they do have some say in how the group performs. You can of course, still do whatever you want, but they will at some point perhaps politely suggest things or even rudely suggest things and they may even remove you if it's extreme.

When you're on your own, you generally only affect yourself. When you are in a group, others are counting on you to perform at a certain level, depending on the content. If you're not performing at that level, someone else is doing extra work to compensate and they may not enjoy picking up the slack.

moo_2021 · August 2021

TPishek wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

it'd be nice if ZOS allows us to tag ourselves as professional or casual, so we don't mix in dungeon finder or BGs, not that I don't enjoy their angry comments but I know many are like me and have no real intention to learn to play the game properly

That would be what vet vs normal would be for I imagine.

But it's not like non-DLC vet is impossible to underperformers like me. The only difference I can see is that they do require real tank and real healer.

SeaGtGruff · August 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

Play however you want but once you're in a group with other people, they do have some say in how the group performs. You can of course, still do whatever you want, but they will at some point perhaps politely suggest things or even rudely suggest things and they may even remove you if it's extreme.

When you're on your own, you generally only affect yourself. When you are in a group, others are counting on you to perform at a certain level, depending on the content. If you're not performing at that level, someone else is doing extra work to compensate and they may not enjoy picking up the slack.

Yeah, but sometimes when you're in a group, it's one specific individual who wants to tell you what to do or what not to do, or what to wear and what not to wear, etc. So in those situations, how is it okay for that one player to decide everything for the entire group?

Fennwitty · August 2021

Sure it's fun to legitimately fight your way through a dungeon and learn and overcome.

First couple times.

Afterward, not so much.

redspecter23 · August 2021

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Play however you want but once you're in a group with other people, they do have some say in how the group performs. You can of course, still do whatever you want, but they will at some point perhaps politely suggest things or even rudely suggest things and they may even remove you if it's extreme.

When you're on your own, you generally only affect yourself. When you are in a group, others are counting on you to perform at a certain level, depending on the content. If you're not performing at that level, someone else is doing extra work to compensate and they may not enjoy picking up the slack.

Yeah, but sometimes when you're in a group, it's one specific individual who wants to tell you what to do or what not to do, or what to wear and what not to wear, etc. So in those situations, how is it okay for that one player to decide everything for the entire group?

If the other 3 people aren't ok with it, then it's not ok. Perhaps the two others are interested in the suggestions. Perhaps not. If the person is being annoying, initiate a vote kick. Remember there isn't just one playstyle. There are an infinite number of ways to play the game. This other person may honestly want to help the group succeed, but are going about it in a poor way. Being open to suggestions is a good way to improve. Assuming that everyone else is telling you how to play and that's it's always negative is just as valid, but leaves no room to improve. Without improving, you may start to notice a lot more people suggesting things over time. Sometimes, the issue lies within yourself and isn't necessarily just others.

moo_2021 · August 2021

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Yeah, but sometimes when you're in a group, it's one specific individual who wants to tell you what to do or what not to do, or what to wear and what not to wear, etc. So in those situations, how is it okay for that one player to decide everything for the entire group?

And those players are no longer in majority as far as I can tell. It seems the numbers of underperformers have grown a lot in recent months.

So I think it's best ZOS add some mechanism to separate players. Those who want to play professionally can just avoid the headache with casual players.

redspecter23 · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Yeah, but sometimes when you're in a group, it's one specific individual who wants to tell you what to do or what not to do, or what to wear and what not to wear, etc. So in those situations, how is it okay for that one player to decide everything for the entire group?

And those players are no longer in majority as far as I can tell. It seems the numbers of underperformers have grown a lot in recent months.

So I think it's best ZOS add some mechanism to separate players. Those who want to play professionally can just avoid the headache with casual players.

If you desire a specific style of play from the group, you've always had the ability to form your own premade group to run the content. The queue is a random mix of skill level and playstyle. You can already do exactly what you want an automated system to do for you. It just requires a bit more work than pressing a button. No automated playstyle separation will be perfect as the distinction is relative to each player and that's assuming people even join the intended queue to begin with. The current queue system has fake roles all over the place. You think a casual/pro queue wouldn't have fake playstyles as well if it meant a slightly faster queue time?

moo_2021 · August 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you desire a specific style of play from the group, you've always had the ability to form your own premade group to run the content. The queue is a random mix of skill level and playstyle. You can already do exactly what you want an automated system to do for you. It just requires a bit more work than pressing a button. No automated playstyle separation will be perfect as the distinction is relative to each player and that's assuming people even join the intended queue to begin with. The current queue system has fake roles all over the place. You think a casual/pro queue wouldn't have fake playstyles as well if it meant a slightly faster queue time?

I'm not suggesting about fake roles. In fact my healer ability was needed a lot in that run. Vet dungeon itself makes those roles rather necessary.

Just unfamiliar with the mechanics and don't really care since there are so many dungeons and I'm not going to research beforehand (seriously why would anyone do research and readings for a game?! I only did it for pvp...)

Kiralyn2000 · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

Are most MMOs always that serious or is ESO special?

Pretty much every 'established'/years-old MMO I've played, most people running dungeons are just trying to pound out their daily/farming runs. They're not there to "learn the dungeon" by repeated fails, they're there to get through it fast & smooth.

Which is why you'll see people say "if you want to do it the slow way, form your own group for that purpose". You'll hear the same thing for people wanting to do the quest/see the lore/etc (i.e, doing it slow, since you have to wait for NPCs to talk & cutscene). Dungeon Finder folks are just there to slam it out fast.

moo_2021 wrote: »

Malkiv wrote: »

It might be pledges that you were getting grouped into. People can get salty about pledges.

One of them is pledge yes.

But why? Pledge is random, not farming runs. It's not like people need to rush.

Eh, I'd think most people consider the daily pledge to be 'farming'. It's certainly not for slow experimenting.

redspecter23 · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you desire a specific style of play from the group, you've always had the ability to form your own premade group to run the content. The queue is a random mix of skill level and playstyle. You can already do exactly what you want an automated system to do for you. It just requires a bit more work than pressing a button. No automated playstyle separation will be perfect as the distinction is relative to each player and that's assuming people even join the intended queue to begin with. The current queue system has fake roles all over the place. You think a casual/pro queue wouldn't have fake playstyles as well if it meant a slightly faster queue time?

I'm not suggesting about fake roles. In fact my healer ability was needed a lot in that run. Vet dungeon itself makes those roles rather necessary.

Just unfamiliar with the mechanics and don't really care since there are so many dungeons and I'm not going to research beforehand (seriously why would anyone do research and readings for a game?! I only did it for pvp...)

Some people find the research enjoyable and to them, it's an aspect of the game that they find compelling. Just as you enjoy running in blind and exploring for yourself. Both are valid ways to play the game. One side doesn't have to understand why the other side plays the way they do, but if they are going to be grouping together, they do need to realize that the other side exists and that their playstyle is just as valid as their own.

daijyashinb16_ESO · August 2021

A bad group can leave a bad taste in peoples mouths.

Example: I have done Fang Lair (All on Vet) four times. For a general idea, I'm going to break each run down with the three groups I've done it with. I didn't do any research going into this particular dungeon either, but the people I was with were always helpful.

Run 1 with Group A: My first time through. 3 Man Premade + 1 PUG. Great group, let me go at my own pace and the story. We get through it no trouble. No HM. No deaths to mobs.

Run 2 with Group B: It's been more than a month since run with Group A. This time full Premade. We get HM done, but it does take us the better part of an hour. It's fine, we have to start somewhere. No deaths to mobs either. This is fine because we set aside time as a group to actually do this.

Run 3 with Group C: Two days later, I do a run with this group because they were after No Death. This is basically a Pug group, but within a guild I was in. After first boss, tank dies to a mob and calls it a bug. The guy who recruited us was a DD who was on a Bow/Bow setup with literally 0 damage.
They decide to keep going for HM instead. Not what I signed up for, but I didn't want to be rude and continued on. He keeps dying to random crap and complains about a bug. We get to the boss, activate HM and the group instantly wipes. I forgot to change my skills for the boss, so I ask them to let me change. Everyone agrees. 20 seconds goes by and while still changing my skills, tank aggros boss, attacks it then complains about the lack of healing. He continues this pattern quite often. The DDs don't want to listen either. Eventually tank ragequits and I'm also just done, with the DD who recruited us then saying how we bailed on them in the guild chat. Explaination on how they didn't want to do the crystal mechanic at all and such like makes them kind of a laughing stock and the poor guy is still trying Fang Lair THREE HOURS LATER blaming everyone else.

Run 4 with Group B again: Literally less than two hours after my run with Group C (and while they were still attempting HM/No Death), All of Group B so happened to be on, so we cleared Speedrun and No Death at the same time. Seriously, no issues. No bugs or anything. I asked our experienced tank about it and he was like "I don't know."

Run 3 is something that happens in a lot of my runs when I pub. Another experience I remember is that someone wanted to learn Ruins of Mazzatun but wanted to do it on Vet for their first time. I'm fine with that, but then they kept charging into Chudan, not wanting to learn the mechanics and saying they'd rather learn by 'Doing rather than Reading/Someone Explaining.' That's fine if everyone doesn't know the dungeon and wants to learn it for themselves, but it's rather different when other people DO know the dungeon and they are actively sabotaging said dungeon. Not only that, but sometimes you get a feel for when people can't actually do an Hard mode. I've gone into plenty of pub Ruins of Mazzatun Vet and taken far longer than I should have because people who can't yet handle/do HM are trying to do it and I've lost a lot of time for it. This was before I encountered either Group A or Group B from above also, so at the time I didn't have a premade to help me through this sort of stuff.

There is nothing wrong with 'Slow Learning/Repeated Failure/Lots of Losses', but when people don't actively listen or have other stuff to do with their time, then that also needs to be respected.

Ken_Koerperich · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

Malkiv wrote: »

It might be pledges that you were getting grouped into. People can get salty about pledges.

One of them is pledge yes.

But why? Pledge is random, not farming runs. It's not like people need to rush.

You would think so wouldn't you, yet every day...SPEEDRUN city....skip mobs, boss to boss running....ANNOYING...

jle30303 · August 2021

Because when you are "learning by doing", you are also forcing other people to take two or three times as long over the same thing, and they may literally not have the free time that you are soaking up for them.

"Learning by doing" is for normal. Likewise, doing the dungeon for the story and skill point is for normal. On veteran, you either research beforehand, or at the very least, you ask about the mechanics early on, and you DO THE FRAKKING MECHANICS after learning them. At the very least, you should have already done the story and the skill point on normal, so you *don't* delay other players by forcing them to wait for cutscene dialogue.

Skipping trash mobs... that's annoying, especially when a speedster runs past them, while someone else who doesn't have the same speed or stamina gets caught up in them and *can't* run past them. You should fight your way through a dungeon, not run past mobs that are already aggroed (running past mobs WITHOUT aggroing them, by taking a route that allows you to avoid their detection, is okay).

moo_2021 · August 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

"Learning by doing" is for normal. Likewise, doing the dungeon for the story and skill point is for normal. On veteran, you either research beforehand, or at the very least, you ask about the mechanics early on, and you DO THE FRAKKING MECHANICS after learning them.

See, that's why I propose a full separation.

ESO is my first MMO and I can't understand why players even expect that, since I wouldn't bother to run a dungeon twice if I still remember how it works.

Given that there are probably many players like me, who were just lured to ESO from Skyrim, a separation would solve all the problems and make everyone happy.

jle30303 · August 2021

There is a separation. It's called "veteran" and "normal".

If you want to learn by doing, and take hours over something that experienced players can do in 20-30 minutes, go do normal. Veteran is for *veterans* - people who know how the dungeon works, DPS who know how to actually do decent damage (if you're doing 10k per second, you do not belong in veteran), healers who know how to keep a party alive (especially the tank since he's the one taking the biggest hits)), and tanks who can survive big hits that would kill anyone who isn't a tank - and who can *attract* the mobs so that the big hits DO land on them, rather than on a squishy glass-cannon wizard in robes who dies if a monster sneezes.

The reason you run dungeons more than once is to get more and more of the gear from them, since you don't get all the gear in one run. In particular, weapons can only drop from the final boss, or from chests - and there are more different types of weapon than armour, especially from the 3 different suits (light, medium and heavy) that can be found within each individual dungeon.

And you do it repeatedly on veteran because (a) the gear drops will be purple in quality instead of blue, (b) a better chance in particular of purple rings, which are otherwise pretty rare and it's VERY expensive to upgrade a ring from blue to purple (you might even make an income by deconstructing a purple ring and selling zircon grains in the mall), and (c) it's the only way to get the monster-mask head gear, and even then, you want it in the right armour weight (heavy, medium or light) and preferably the right trait (though this can be changed if you have access to a transmute station).

Dungeons are not just one-and-done here.

Michaelkeir · August 2021

Boy you’d hate WoW then. Back when I use to play that, people got serious in group runs. You had to do x and y or you’d get removed from the group and even blackballed from other groups and guilds.

As to your question, I have to ask what exactly was it that you were doing? I’m all for non meta, unique builds. But if your build is making the run last much longer than necessary, then I’d have a problem. Snipe or light attack spamming is a no no in my book as a example. In normal, you can get away with some pretty bad builds or play styles, but vet is pushing it, and vet dlc dungeons are a no go zone for me. You go into something like vet Lair Of Maarselok with me and then we’ve got a problem.

But I still wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about it. I’d give you a pointer or two, and if you still kept at it, I’d just request to kick or just leave. Good thing about having 6 tanks, I get insta groups.

I’ve had people start cursing when I’d give them advice and I’m by no means rude. I’m very polite about it, but done just don’t wanna hear it.

Kiralyn2000 · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO and I can't understand why players even expect that, since I wouldn't bother to run a dungeon twice if I still remember how it works.

Meanwhile, the typical MMO dungeon-runner, is doing that dungeon for the millionth time. Possibly "the millionth time this week", if they're looking for a specific drop, if there's an event on, etc.

People who "do dungeons" (and trials, and raids) do them over and over and over. They don't do each dungeon once, slowly learning-by-doing & exploring every inch.

moo_2021 · August 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

There is a separation. It's called "veteran" and "normal".

If you want to learn by doing, and take hours over something that experienced players can do in 20-30 minutes, go do normal.

Except that's your definition and I have no reason to accept, so nope.

jle30303 · August 2021

Yoiu've got three reasons to accept: those three reasons are "three other players in the same instance as you". If you are, in fact, impeding their game - and indeed their real life because they are taking 90 minutes over something that should take 30 - then you have become their problem and they have every right to react accordingly.

moo_2021 · August 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

Yoiu've got three reasons to accept: those three reasons are "three other players in the same instance as you". If you are, in fact, impeding their game - and indeed their real life because they are taking 90 minutes over something that should take 30 - then you have become their problem and they have every right to react accordingly.

Again that's why I proposed separation.

Players from my non-MMO background:

- don't need to rush
- expect failures not successes
- don't need to complete anything because playing itself is the goal

So.. unless ZOS make some changes, I don't see any choice. Feel free to kick me if you see me.

jle30303 · August 2021

Look. Imagine you're playing football (soccer)

Suppose you are okay with having a fun kickabout in the park.

That doesn't mean you belong in the Premier League.

And even in the kickabout in the park... if you came along as a goalkeeper, and you let every ball go into the net, then people have the right to question your competence (if you're actually trying to stand in the net and just not being very good at it) or your actions (if you've come along telling everybody you're a goalkeeper and what you actually do is rush up to the other end of the pitch and get in the way of the forwards, leaving the net unguarded, and refuse to actually keep the goal at all.) Either way, they have an absolute right to be annoyed with you for letting the team down.

This is why you don't do veteran unless you are prepared to DO VETERAN - learn mechanics, aim to succeed, learn what is necessary to succeed and do it. What you appear to be trying to do, is behave like "normal" while doing "veteran". That IS where the divide is. Look up what the word "veteran" means in the context of games. It doesn't just imply age, it implies skill. Learn the skill before you go there, because you are not fit for veteran otherwise.

moo_2021 · August 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

This is why you don't do veteran unless you are prepared to DO VETERAN - learn mechanics, aim to succeed, learn what is necessary to succeed and do it. What you appear to be trying to do, is behave like "normal" while doing "veteran". That IS where the divide is. Look up what the word "veteran" means in the context of games. It doesn't just imply age, it implies skill. Learn the skill before you go there, because you are not fit for veteran otherwise.

Um surely you see the problem?

If people do the research beforehand or having learnt mechanics, the team is guaranteed to succeed (and yes I have basic skills and proper gears for DD/healer). It'd just be another smooth run like normal except a bit longer. What's the fun in that? Most single-player game players would never bother to play things that because it's boring. and I'm not even a fan of high difficulty settings in those games.

So we're at impasse here...

Syrusthevirus187 · August 2021

The fun is actually completing content.

Soulshine · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

This is why you don't do veteran unless you are prepared to DO VETERAN - learn mechanics, aim to succeed, learn what is necessary to succeed and do it. What you appear to be trying to do, is behave like "normal" while doing "veteran". That IS where the divide is. Look up what the word "veteran" means in the context of games. It doesn't just imply age, it implies skill. Learn the skill before you go there, because you are not fit for veteran otherwise.

Um surely you see the problem?

If people do the research beforehand or having learnt mechanics, the team is guaranteed to succeed (and yes I have basic skills and proper gears for DD/healer). It'd just be another smooth run like normal except a bit longer. What's the fun in that? Most single-player game players would never bother to play things that because it's boring. and I'm not even a fan of high difficulty settings in those games.

So we're at impasse here...

This isn't a single player game. Objectives are different, loot systems and rewards are different, and content demands are different.

If three other people you are in a group with do not view dealing with repeated wipes and excesses of time as a success, then it isn't.

It is also not just a question of personal semantics when people distinguish "Normal" from "Veteran." The game instituted those tags in order for players to understand that at veteran level there will be more demands on them than in normal mode of the dungeon.

Bottom line here is that if you keep doing vet dungeons without being prepared to do them, expect more of the same responses from others in your group.

If you do enjoy doing them that way, then pre-made your groups and by all means have at it in whatever way your pre-made group chooses.

But insisting the developers create additional separation tags and mechanisms beyond what is already there to serve the very divide you are seeking? that is just plain nonsense.

Kiralyn2000 · August 2021

moo_2021 wrote: »

If people do the research beforehand or having learnt mechanics, the team is guaranteed to succeed (and yes I have basic skills and proper gears for DD/healer). It'd just be another smooth run like normal except a bit longer. What's the fun in that? Most single-player game players would never bother to play things that because it's boring. and I'm not even a fan of high difficulty settings in those games.

So we're at impasse here...

The impasse is that you seem to have rather different expectations of "dungeon run" than most MMO players do. For the average MMO player, the dungeon is a source of Good Loot. That loot is randomly dropped. So, in order to get the Good Loot that they want, they might need to run the dungeon many times. Which means that they want to run it as quickly and smoothly as possible.

And then there are daily bonuses, like for Pledges and random dungeons. Again, since they're going to be doing this every day, they want to get it done quickly and smoothly. Because they'll be doing it every day.

But sure - there are a small set of people who want to play the dungeons the way you do. But you're unlikely to find that in a random queue group. You're much more likely to get typical MMO players who want to fly through a dungeon they already know like the back of their hand.

So what you need to do, is build your own groups, from folks who want the same things you do - you need to either advertise in chat to find these people, or join a guild that will match your interests. Because that's how MMO's work. It's not a single player game - if you're going to do a group activity, the rest of the group matters too. You can't just expect a random group to match your particular niche.

(and as for "single player games" - depending on the game, one might do the same content over & over. In an ARPG/Diablo-like, you'll do repeated boss runs. In a long play of Skyrim or Fallout 4, I frequently end up going back to dungeons I've been in multiple times. All depends on the genre & play style.)

thorwyn · August 2021

Playing a veteran dungeon without knowing the mechanics and with no intention to learn how to play it properly is like joining a band without knowing how to play an instrument, pressing random keys on the piano (because that's your idea of fun) and then wonder why the other band members are angry because the song sounds [snip].

As some people already pointed out, most players are trying to run the pledges as fast and efficient as possible and more or less deliberately wasting other people's time IS serious.

Another separation of the queues would not solve that problem because there is a lot of room between the two extreme positions a. 1337 speedrunning with 100% efficiency and b. just fooling around and not giving a damn. Most people would not be able to pick a side here. Normal vs. veteran already provides enough separation if people would just stick to the idea.

[edited for profanity bypass]

ixthUA · August 2021

If you are doing non-dlc vet dungeon you will be fine even with 20k total team dps (i did vet banished cells 2 with that much dps), and 20k is less than 1 beginner DD can do. If you have real tank and real healer, who use buffs/debuffs - 1 beginner DD should be doing 30k+ dps.