Serious suggestion for enticing PvEers to PvP and vice versa.
Minyassa
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Probably going to get laughed at, but I've been mulling this over for a while. I have been told that the forum population is not representative of the game population as far as majority opinions go, and I can see that possibly being true as many people don't bother with forums at all and spend the time they could be reading or posting actually playing the game. Nevertheless, there's a lot of arguing between PvE players and PvP players in the forum, and a lot of accusations of toxicity flying both ways. PvPers get turned off of PvE by rude groups and vote kicks making it hard for them to do group content. PvEers get turned off of PvP by hate whispers and door campers. The vast majority of these complaints seem to be based in personal experiences on the part of players who run into a terrible time one way or another in a side of the game, usually several times over until they give up. This is happening on both sides, commonly enough that it's become "the way things are in that other type of play" for the affected players.
I've only played 3 MMOs including ESO, but ESO is the one in which I've personally seen the most toxicity from *any* corner of the community. It's also the one that doesn't have live DMs in it. I find this to be ultimately significant.
Any game that people play with others can be cooperative, competitive, or both at the same time. That's just how humans play. Some play casually, some play very seriously. Some are playing to relax, some are playing to test themselves against others. Some just want to be entertained, some want to be acknowledged for skill. People just have different needs, and when you throw thousands of different people together, there are naturally going to be a lot of behavioral differences leading to clashes. Not all behaviors are equally acceptable. There are behaviors that are commonly accepted as bad, those being behaviors that ruin the game for a Reasonable Person.
"Reasonable Person" is a term used often in law. It means "a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard" in determining liability for actions. We can use it in a gaming situation to represent the average player who exercises average care, skill and judgment in conduct to serve as a comparative standard for player behavior.
A Reasonable Person is going to be upset with people behaving in a manner that bars them from achieving game progress, that disrupts their play time to the point of derailing a game session, that interrupts their enjoyment entirely, and that behaves in a manner that is deeply upsetting on a personal level. (Note I say "deeply"; in reference to a Reasonable Person, to deeply upset them means some severely upsetting incident). But we have thousands of people, and many of them are not Reasonable People. What is a game to do to mitigate the effect of unreasonable players taking advantage of group play to behave badly?
REFEREES. They are present in every formal sports match for a reason. They keep things fair. They keep things moving smoothly. They keep both players and game circumstances in line so that the game itself is a priority and personal conflicts do not interrupt it. Without the referee, players are left to referee themselves, and that is never going to work well. We cannot referee ourselves and expect the game to stay fun for everyone.
ESO has much in common with sports matches in that it involves groups of people working together or against each other for either personal glory, or team glory, or just plain fun. All those different types being present makes self-regulating impossible. ESO needs referees, or as they've been referred to in the other games I played, DMs. They would be present to help smooth over conflicts, to redirect behaviors that hinder gameplay, help figure out technical problems, and as a side effect improve morale by making players feel like someone is watching in case there is trouble. There are those who would see that as oppressive and there to rob them of fun, but we can pretty much guess what's fun for someone for whom the idea of preventing trouble kills fun. I'm not asking for walking banhammers, I'm suggesting that people whose job it is to oversee gameplay and step in when there is *any* trouble needful of straightening out, whether it's technical, a lack of knowledge about how the game works, or conflict based. They would also be around to see bots so that it's not up to players to be the bot police too.
I've only played 3 MMOs including ESO, but ESO is the one in which I've personally seen the most toxicity from *any* corner of the community. It's also the one that doesn't have live DMs in it. I find this to be ultimately significant.
Any game that people play with others can be cooperative, competitive, or both at the same time. That's just how humans play. Some play casually, some play very seriously. Some are playing to relax, some are playing to test themselves against others. Some just want to be entertained, some want to be acknowledged for skill. People just have different needs, and when you throw thousands of different people together, there are naturally going to be a lot of behavioral differences leading to clashes. Not all behaviors are equally acceptable. There are behaviors that are commonly accepted as bad, those being behaviors that ruin the game for a Reasonable Person.
"Reasonable Person" is a term used often in law. It means "a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard" in determining liability for actions. We can use it in a gaming situation to represent the average player who exercises average care, skill and judgment in conduct to serve as a comparative standard for player behavior.
A Reasonable Person is going to be upset with people behaving in a manner that bars them from achieving game progress, that disrupts their play time to the point of derailing a game session, that interrupts their enjoyment entirely, and that behaves in a manner that is deeply upsetting on a personal level. (Note I say "deeply"; in reference to a Reasonable Person, to deeply upset them means some severely upsetting incident). But we have thousands of people, and many of them are not Reasonable People. What is a game to do to mitigate the effect of unreasonable players taking advantage of group play to behave badly?
REFEREES. They are present in every formal sports match for a reason. They keep things fair. They keep things moving smoothly. They keep both players and game circumstances in line so that the game itself is a priority and personal conflicts do not interrupt it. Without the referee, players are left to referee themselves, and that is never going to work well. We cannot referee ourselves and expect the game to stay fun for everyone.
ESO has much in common with sports matches in that it involves groups of people working together or against each other for either personal glory, or team glory, or just plain fun. All those different types being present makes self-regulating impossible. ESO needs referees, or as they've been referred to in the other games I played, DMs. They would be present to help smooth over conflicts, to redirect behaviors that hinder gameplay, help figure out technical problems, and as a side effect improve morale by making players feel like someone is watching in case there is trouble. There are those who would see that as oppressive and there to rob them of fun, but we can pretty much guess what's fun for someone for whom the idea of preventing trouble kills fun. I'm not asking for walking banhammers, I'm suggesting that people whose job it is to oversee gameplay and step in when there is *any* trouble needful of straightening out, whether it's technical, a lack of knowledge about how the game works, or conflict based. They would also be around to see bots so that it's not up to players to be the bot police too.
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EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭Generally, I find a zone deals with itself and doesn't need a DM.
But what would help...is creating a PvP training area, where new PvPers would be able to use siege on keeps, outposts, walls, resources, etc., just like the real Cyro but with no players fighting back.
I'd create a tier of timers, such as lvl one for somebody who is given a lot of time to position a particular type of siege and to take down a wall to get the feel of it. Then lvl two, the timer is decreased to force the player to speed up. You could have tiers all the way up to professional, such as using 5 sieges at a time or more, etc.
Have a few quests like "50/50", where a new player understands what that means, and sets up siege accordingly, then getting an endeavor reward or whatever for successfully setting it up and sieging.
One a side note, each faction needs a small "battle-check arena" at their gates so same-faction players can "duel" each other for quick equipment checks, rather than having to LOG OUT OF CYRO...just to duel.Edited by EmEm_Oh on August 23, 2021 2:37PM3 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The incentive to draw PVE players to PVP and vice versa is already there TBH.
PVP is the best way to earn transmute crystals, and you can spend PVP currency on sets that are useful in PVE (Powerful Assault for example). In addition to that, you can use AP to buy stuff from the golden, and AP is easier to earn than gold.
For PVPers, they have to play at least some PVE in order to get sets that they want to use for PVP. Pariah, Amberplasm, Swampraider, etc. All are good sets for PVP use, but you have to play/grind PVE content to earn those sets. They also need to play some PVE in order to obtain upgrade materials so that they are getting the most out of their sets.
Not sure there needs to be even more incentive to draw players from the other side to play the opposite mode. The bottom line is that most people will have a preference, and no matter what you do, they're always going to gravitate towards that preference.0 -
Cheyenne✭✭✭Referees may entice some people but only the people who aren't doing that particular content for that reason only (toxic players). There are many other reasons people don't play certain content.
I can't speak for what would entice PVP players to PVE (or at least make it more palatable), but I can say that for me personally, there is absolutely nothing that would entice me to PVP. I have zero interest in it. While I agree that toxic players are a definite turn-off for me in any aspect of the game, PVP style of playing is just not my thing (needing to know what all other classes can do so you can combat it, fast pace, never relaxing, etc.)
I don't think enticing of any sort should have to be used to get people to play a game (or parts of a game). Humans are all different and we all have different interests. Right now, we have "enticement" in the game with the locking of various items and/or achievements behind PVP, questing, dungeons, trials, etc. To me, that just takes full enjoyment of the game away from people who just don't have any interest in doing all of those things.
I mean, I can't have that boat in my house because the normally enjoyable and relaxing hobby of fishing must turn into a "hurryupandcatchfishwhiletryingtowatchmyback" anxiety-filled duty that I must do just to get a boat for my house that no one will ever see besides me anyway. Makes a lot of sense (not), but I've come to accept there are things I'll never be able to have because I won't do certain things, but it does take away some of my enjoyment.
Again, your idea may work for some but not all. In the end, we all have our interests and as much as the devs and others players want, we aren't all going to want to do everything this game has to offer, so enticements as they are now and enticements they come up with in the future are only going to work on a very limited amount of players.Edited by Cheyenne on August 23, 2021 4:01PM12 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭The way to draw PvE players into PvP is to put a no-frills, totally random, fast queque SIMPLISTIC arena in similar to GW1. In that game, in the random arena, it was all 4v4 death match and the maps had some detail but were generally basic. It was packed, always insta queue, and you could either hop in that instantly, or once learning the game, you could move on to more organized PvP.
ESO, like so many games, since, has erred by not including such a simple random 4 man arena, instead have bit off too much in their pvp arena modes. Have seen this time after time whereas GW1 got it right 15? years ago. Players do not want to learn character based PvP while learning map/script based externals and side games at the same time, and IMO this is why relatively few do BG, Cyro or IC.
By including a basic random NO TEAM four man deathmatch with SIMPLE maps, they could capture a much higher conversion into the PvP game mode than currently exists.4 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The way to draw PvE players into PvP is to put a no-frills, totally random, fast queque SIMPLISTIC arena in similar to GW1. In that game, in the random arena, it was all 4v4 death match and the maps had some detail but were generally basic. It was packed, always insta queue, and you could either hop in that instantly, or once learning the game, you could move on to more organized PvP.
ESO, like so many games, since, has erred by not including such a simple random 4 man arena, instead have bit off too much in their pvp arena modes. Have seen this time after time whereas GW1 got it right 15? years ago. Players do not want to learn character based PvP while learning map/script based externals and side games at the same time, and IMO this is why relatively few do BG, Cyro or IC.
By including a basic random NO TEAM four man deathmatch with SIMPLE maps, they could capture a much higher conversion into the PvP game mode than currently exists.
If the main objection pve players have about pvp is the behavior/mindset/attitude of some pvp players, putting a no-frills fast random que in place to get them to the insults/taunts/verbal abuse part of things faster is NOT going to get more pve players to pvp.11 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sounds great in theory, but realistically it would be too expensive to have referees. There are 3 different platforms with na and eu versions of both. Each one has about 40 zones and you would need people to cover 3 shifts throughout the day.
They would need to hire about 720 referees. If there not willing to spend a few grand to improve servers then I seriously doubt they would spend a few million to police their game.
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Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In my case, my high-tense gaming days are over. Right now I just want to have fun, and play games in a relaxing way. And I am probably not the only player who is in that spot/situation. PvP also requires a certain competitive mindset, which most players do not have. Causing those players to stick to PvE.
I think that no matter what brilliant solution some players come up with, most players will never want to play PvP. Nor even want to consider trying it.
So speaking from my own situation, I do not think it is possible to get players who do not want to PvP, into PvP. And any attempt to 'force' those players to do PvP, with events/endeavours/otherwise, will only leave a negative taste in the mouths of those players. Like it does to me whenever event tickets are only available in PvP zones, for example.
PS: Even though I have always been primarily a PvE player, I did spend loads of time PvPing in previous games I played.Edited by Sarannah on August 23, 2021 3:58PM12 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The way to draw PvE players into PvP is to put a no-frills, totally random, fast queque SIMPLISTIC arena in similar to GW1. In that game, in the random arena, it was all 4v4 death match and the maps had some detail but were generally basic. It was packed, always insta queue, and you could either hop in that instantly, or once learning the game, you could move on to more organized PvP.
ESO, like so many games, since, has erred by not including such a simple random 4 man arena, instead have bit off too much in their pvp arena modes. Have seen this time after time whereas GW1 got it right 15? years ago. Players do not want to learn character based PvP while learning map/script based externals and side games at the same time, and IMO this is why relatively few do BG, Cyro or IC.
By including a basic random NO TEAM four man deathmatch with SIMPLE maps, they could capture a much higher conversion into the PvP game mode than currently exists.
If the main objection pve players have about pvp is the behavior/mindset/attitude of some pvp players, putting a no-frills fast random que in place to get them to the insults/taunts/verbal abuse part of things faster is NOT going to get more pve players to pvp.
And this is mostly perception rather than reality.. Those minds won't be changed. Although I would like to see this suggestion.
Minalan owes me a beer.
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And vice versa? PvPers do PvE for the gear sets we need, and when it comes to monster sets that means we even do this content on veteran as well. We just don't pug unless we need to so we avoid the issues that plague PvE group finding completely.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What exactly do you expect these referees to do?
Stop players from killing people who are doing PvPvE quests in the PvPvE towns in Cyrodiil, which is explicitly a PvPvE zone?
Stop players from killing people who are doing PvPvE quests in Imperial City, which is also explicitly a PvPvE zone?
Stop players from killing people who just want skyshards/fish/achievements/leads/event tickets from Cyrodiil and Imperial City, which are (once more for effect) explicitly PvPvE zones?
I'd like some clarity about what exactly these Referees are supposed to be doing. Because while you might not mean the above things, those certainly are complaints I've heard from players who hate PVP.
Obligatory reminder that killing players is an expected part of PVP.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546727/was-it-ever-confirmed-if-tea-bagging-is-against-tos-now/p14 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The real solution to "enticing PvE players to PvP" is to stop doing it.
The people who want to give it a go, or who want the things from those parts of the game, will go there.
The rest would like to stop being evangelized with "oh, if you'd just stop being afraid of dying and tried it, you'd like it!" and similar.
No, we know we don't want to PvP. For a variety of reasons. And the repeated sales pitches/etc, are just annoying.If the main objection pve players have about pvp is the behavior/mindset/attitude of some pvp players, putting a no-frills fast random que in place to get them to the insults/taunts/verbal abuse part of things faster is NOT going to get more pve players to pvp.
And this is mostly perception rather than reality.. Those minds won't be changed. Although I would like to see this suggestion.
It's perception based on years of observation, across many games (in multiple genres) & forums. Yes, it's not "all pvpers". But it's enough to spoil the barrel of apples. Trash talking, hypercompetitive attitudes (yes, those are also present in "hardcore endgame" PvE), griefing, trolls, etc. No thanks.23 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »The real solution to "enticing PvE players to PvP" is to stop doing it.
The people who want to give it a go, or who want the things from those parts of the game, will go there.
The rest would like to stop being evangelized with "oh, if you'd just stop being afraid of dying and tried it, you'd like it!" and similar.
No, we know we don't want to PvP. For a variety of reasons. And the repeated sales pitches/etc, are just annoying.If the main objection pve players have about pvp is the behavior/mindset/attitude of some pvp players, putting a no-frills fast random que in place to get them to the insults/taunts/verbal abuse part of things faster is NOT going to get more pve players to pvp.
And this is mostly perception rather than reality.. Those minds won't be changed. Although I would like to see this suggestion.
It's perception based on years of observation, across many games (in multiple genres) & forums. Yes, it's not "all pvpers". But it's enough to spoil the barrel of apples. Trash talking, hypercompetitive attitudes (yes, those are also present in "hardcore endgame" PvE), griefing, trolls, etc. No thanks.
Honestly, I think the current level of "enticement" is fine. Players who want the skyshards/fish/achievements/leads/endeavors/event tickets etc. will try it out and will either come back to PVP or they won't. It's no different from any other "Hey, try this content out for rewards" thing in the game - I despise Heists and Black Sacraments, so the only time I do them is during an event.
Of course, I would think that, since the thing that set me on the path to eventually becoming an avid PVPer was my desire for Master Angler...
What gets me is the players who want the rewards, but don't want to do the content, and moreover, feel like the Devs should give them the rewards anyway because they so viscerally dislike the content.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »The real solution to "enticing PvE players to PvP" is to stop doing it.
The people who want to give it a go, or who want the things from those parts of the game, will go there.
The rest would like to stop being evangelized with "oh, if you'd just stop being afraid of dying and tried it, you'd like it!" and similar.
No, we know we don't want to PvP. For a variety of reasons. And the repeated sales pitches/etc, are just annoying.If the main objection pve players have about pvp is the behavior/mindset/attitude of some pvp players, putting a no-frills fast random que in place to get them to the insults/taunts/verbal abuse part of things faster is NOT going to get more pve players to pvp.
And this is mostly perception rather than reality.. Those minds won't be changed. Although I would like to see this suggestion.
It's perception based on years of observation, across many games (in multiple genres) & forums. Yes, it's not "all pvpers". But it's enough to spoil the barrel of apples. Trash talking, hypercompetitive attitudes (yes, those are also present in "hardcore endgame" PvE), griefing, trolls, etc. No thanks.
But how much ESO PVP do you actually play? Honestly - how much?
I play all the time - its pretty-much all I do in ESO aside from farm gear for PVP. So in context, how much of your perception is actually from actually playing ESO PVP?
I'm not trying to say that your opinion doesn't count - but surely the view of someone who plays a lot more PVP in this game is likely to be more accurate? I hardly do dungeons - and so don't comment about toxicity there, because I simply don't know for sure. BUT one reason I don't do them is that I worry I may let the group down - worry that I may upset people by just being bad at it. The reality in my limited experience has generally (not always) been the opposite, but I still worry.
Oddly - I've received 1 hate-mail in ESO PVP over many years. One. And oddly enough, it was during midyear-mayhem. I don't even know what he was complaining about! I don't t-bag, wasn't playing a ganker.. just general PVP-ing.. There's obviously something I was doing that he *percieved* as toxic. But as an experienced PVPer - I was just playing the game.
Edited by Biro123 on August 23, 2021 4:45PMMinalan owes me a beer.
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Cheyenne✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
What gets me is the players who want the rewards, but don't want to do the content, and moreover, feel like the Devs should give them the rewards anyway because they so viscerally dislike the content.
I can understand locking top PVE gear behind things like dungeons and trials and top PVP gear and other PVP things (whatever those may be) behind PVP, but things like furniture?
Many housing enthusiasts are often (but not always) the types of players who don't enjoy PVP/dungeons/trials and instead do housing as their end game. If they need to lock stuff away behind doing certain things, it would make a lot more sense if the locked-away items pertained to the type of content.
I know there are some things that could be of interest to all such as skins and outfits, etc., but instead of trying to get players to do something they don't enjoy, why not allow players to obtain those items through the type of gameplay they enjoy, maybe in different patterns or colors to distinguish which activity they did to obtain them (again, not talking about gear).
Win-win for everyone?Edited by Cheyenne on August 23, 2021 4:55PM10 -
theyancey✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would drop my sub and perma quit the game if "enticed" into a PvP that I despise13 -
Vhozek✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have over 2000 hours and only PvE. PvP is too boring for me. Walking forever just to die and spawn all the way back is not interesting at all. I'm a pretty big Battlefield fan and I can tolerate it there so I don't know exactly why not in this game. Maybe it's the combat? I find Battlegrounds pretty decent but I don't even play that.𝗡𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝗼𝗿𝗿𝘆, 𝗺𝗼𝗱𝘀. 𝗙𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗕𝗶𝗿𝗱 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But how much ESO PVP do you actually play? Honestly - how much?
I play all the time - its pretty-much all I do in ESO aside from farm gear for PVP. So in context, how much of your perception is actually from actually playing ESO PVP?
Playing PvP in ESO specifically? None.
All my ESO-specific experience is from the in-game chat, and the many threads here on the forums: discussions/arguments about teabagging, about Midyear Mayhem griefers killing people at doorways/etc, 1vX'ers complaining that they don't have a steady stream of victims throwing themselves against their armor, about all the other 'fun' experiences people run into while trying to PvP.
But human nature is human nature. The same drives that make awful people do awful things in, say, WoW PvP or Call of Duty PvP or The Division PvP or fighting game tournaments (heck, or IRL team sports at every level from pee-wee to professional), aren't going to magically go away in ESO. Heck, they're likely to be worse nowadays, because the overall level of anger/self-centeredness/trolling/etc in our public discourse has only gotten higher over the last decade.
But even ignoring that, I'm not fond of PvP for multiple reasons. It all seems so pointless, for instance, get killed, respawn, kill the other guy, respawn, get killed, respawn. All those comments PvPers make about "it's so much better than those Boring Scripted Repetitive PvE encounters, there's real variety!" just seem the opposite for me. It's all a boring blur of repetitive die/spawn/die/spawn/die. /shrug
(I also don't score very high in "competitive" - I don't crank my singleplayer games up to the highest difficulty I can manage; I mostly find boss fights to be the annoying break in otherwise-interesting games; while I do like to improve my character/performance/etc, I don't try to min-max to 90-110%; and so on. "Ha! I beat you!" isn't a big rush for me, regardless of whether 'you' is a PvPer or a Raid Boss. /shrug)Edited by Kiralyn2000 on August 23, 2021 5:02PM15 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »But how much ESO PVP do you actually play? Honestly - how much?
I play all the time - its pretty-much all I do in ESO aside from farm gear for PVP. So in context, how much of your perception is actually from actually playing ESO PVP?
Playing PvP in ESO specifically? None.
All my ESO-specific experience is from the in-game chat, and the many threads here on the forums: discussions/arguments about teabagging, about Midyear Mayhem griefers killing people at doorways/etc, 1vX'ers complaining that they don't have a steady stream of victims throwing themselves against their armor, about all the other 'fun' experiences people run into while trying to PvP.
But human nature is human nature. The same drives that make awful people do awful things in, say, WoW PvP or Call of Duty PvP or The Division PvP or fighting game tournaments (heck, or IRL team sports at every level from pee-wee to professional), aren't going to magically go away in ESO. Heck, they're likely to be worse nowadays, because the overall level of anger/self-centeredness/trolling/etc in our public discourse has only gotten higher over the last decade.
But even ignoring that, I'm not fond of PvP for multiple reasons. It all seems so pointless, for instance, get killed, respawn, kill the other guy, respawn, get killed, respawn. All those comments PvPers make about "it's so much better than those Boring Scripted Repetitive PvE encounters, there's real variety!" just seem the opposite for me. It's all a boring blur of repetitive die/spawn/die/spawn/die. /shrug
(I also don't score very high in "competitive" - I don't crank my singleplayer games up to the highest difficulty I can manage; I mostly find boss fights to be the annoying break in otherwise-interesting games; while I do like to improve my character/performance/etc, I don't try to min-max to 90-110%; and so on. "Ha! I beat you!" isn't a big rush for me, regardless of whether 'you' is a PvPer or a Raid Boss. /shrug)
That's fine if you just don't like it for what it is - and I honestly don't agree with this idea that zos has of trying to push people into content that they don't like. Just play what you enjoy.
but please don't perpetuate this ESO-PVP is toxic narrative if you have never even played it!
I mean how many other people, after listening to you then go on to say 'PVP is toxic - because I heard about it on the forums', and how many more after listening to them? How do you know that the people you hear it from aren't just echoing what you have already said - rather than actually speaking from experience?
It all could have stemmed from just one person being a *** several years ago - yet seems to turn into some anti-pvp crusade, trying to destroy what I enjoy.Minalan owes me a beer.
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Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.8 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think you either enjoy playing against other players...or you don't. If you do, you tend to accept the toxicity. Personally, I don't enjoy fighting against real players, and there is nothing that could entice me otherwise. The added toxicity just further reinforces that lack of enjoyment. From conversations I've had over the years, I suspect a lot of players have a similar feeling.11 -
MrBrownstone✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »But how much ESO PVP do you actually play? Honestly - how much?
I play all the time - its pretty-much all I do in ESO aside from farm gear for PVP. So in context, how much of your perception is actually from actually playing ESO PVP?
Playing PvP in ESO specifically? None.
All my ESO-specific experience is from the in-game chat, and the many threads here on the forums: discussions/arguments about teabagging, about Midyear Mayhem griefers killing people at doorways/etc, 1vX'ers complaining that they don't have a steady stream of victims throwing themselves against their armor, about all the other 'fun' experiences people run into while trying to PvP.
But human nature is human nature. The same drives that make awful people do awful things in, say, WoW PvP or Call of Duty PvP or The Division PvP or fighting game tournaments (heck, or IRL team sports at every level from pee-wee to professional), aren't going to magically go away in ESO. Heck, they're likely to be worse nowadays, because the overall level of anger/self-centeredness/trolling/etc in our public discourse has only gotten higher over the last decade.
But even ignoring that, I'm not fond of PvP for multiple reasons. It all seems so pointless, for instance, get killed, respawn, kill the other guy, respawn, get killed, respawn. All those comments PvPers make about "it's so much better than those Boring Scripted Repetitive PvE encounters, there's real variety!" just seem the opposite for me. It's all a boring blur of repetitive die/spawn/die/spawn/die. /shrug
(I also don't score very high in "competitive" - I don't crank my singleplayer games up to the highest difficulty I can manage; I mostly find boss fights to be the annoying break in otherwise-interesting games; while I do like to improve my character/performance/etc, I don't try to min-max to 90-110%; and so on. "Ha! I beat you!" isn't a big rush for me, regardless of whether 'you' is a PvPer or a Raid Boss. /shrug)
That's fine if you just don't like it for what it is - and I honestly don't agree with this idea that zos has of trying to push people into content that they don't like. Just play what you enjoy.
but please don't perpetuate this ESO-PVP is toxic narrative if you have never even played it!
I mean how many other people, after listening to you then go on to say 'PVP is toxic - because I heard about it on the forums', and how many more after listening to them? How do you know that the people you hear it from aren't just echoing what you have already said - rather than actually speaking from experience?
It all could have stemmed from just one person being a *** several years ago - yet seems to turn into some anti-pvp crusade, trying to destroy what I enjoy.
I'm afraid this is all true, There are tons of players who hate PvP without even trying it and spreading the false information that it's full of toxicity. If I was a player who is going to try it for the first time and just knew it from the forums, I'd imagine that I'm going to get vaporized the second I step in there, get teabagged, then spawncamped, and if I ever finally manage to kill the enemy player, receive tons of death threats and hate whispers. Yeah that's how people who DON'T play PvP advertise PvP. However me and my friends have been PvPing for years and we very rarely encounter toxicity, not anymore than PvE.
Yesterday I logged in was standing near the Mournhold wayshrine. Someone started throwing mudballs at me and started hate whispering me, like "I hate PvPers, you destroy my questing, I just came back from imperial city and got killed 3 times in 40 seconds" etc. I even recommended that I have nothing specific to do and I can accompany them if they ever plan on going back. Because guarding someone seemed like fun to me but I'd probably get destroyed by some organized groups of 3-4, even though I'm pretty good at PvP. So let's observe who was being toxic, the PvPer or the PvEr? How about I set my mindset about PvE players based only on this experience - that's what they do. PvE players step in Cyrodiil/IC during MYM and have a bad experience then that's it. PvP is bad.
I'm not a PvP player btw, I'm an Eso player. I play all the content. Mostly enjoy Dungeon HMs, PvP is not my main activity.7 -
Ashryn✭✭✭✭✭To be frank...
EVERYONE has their own preferences. What is fun for one, won't be fun for another. I don't think much effort should be placed on trying to get people to try something that isn't to their taste since they will only resent it!9 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Supposedly ESO had (has?) game masters - every once in a while I see that note on a loading screen about an icon they have near their name.
Never actually seen one in game tho...Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
MrBrownstone✭✭✭✭✭
✭To be frank...
EVERYONE has their own preferences. What is fun for one, won't be fun for another. I don't think much effort should be placed on trying to get people to try something that isn't to their taste since they will only resent it!
Why do you assume that? There are tons of players who haven't tried content that they could actually like. For example, one of my friends had never tried PvP before, not because he's a strictly PvE player, he PvPs in other games, but he never tried PvP because the game never enticed him to and he was like unaware of it. One day during MYM we invited him to IC with us and he had lots of fun, since then he always PvPs with us. Some content is just not advertised enough. If you don't like PvP then you don't have to play, but don't be against making it more inviting.3 -
vamp_emily✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In PvP the ignore button is useful if you have a problem with someone's behavior.
I think offering some type of housing rewards would more than likely encourage PvE players to PvP.
I don't want PVE players playing PVP. I want PVP players playing that try to win the campaign.
If you want a friend, get a dog.
AW Rank: Grand Warlord 1 ( level 49)0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So for the second time in a week or so I'll just mention that a lot of PvEers don't PvP because they they don't enjoy it and have no interest in it. It's not why they're playing a PvE-centred mmoRPG. Some PvPers don't like PvE either, but they seem to prefer doing some PvE as a part of their preferred PvP playstyle to just playing PvP-only titles of which there are many. Of course, plenty of players enjoy both PvP and PvE in differing ratios.
One thing that certainly always ends badly is threads that set out to try and persuade or entice PvEers to try PvP, which of course many will already have done here or elsewhere in reaching their decision that they don't really enjoy it or have any continuing interest in it. Such threads invariably end up reminding those players why they reached that decision a while ago.
I don't see the OP's idea of behavioural referees having the slightest impact on how people currently feel about PvP and PvE, nor do I see the slightest chance of a developer implementing it.
ESO is just a game, no more no less, and one that different people will want to play in different ways. That's fine, there's no need to look for ways of changing that, there's room in Tamriel for all of us.Edited by Tandor on August 23, 2021 9:24PM12 -
UntilValhalla13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly, as a PvEer, the main reason I don't bother with pvp more is performance. How am I supposed to improve when I spend literally 5 seconds trying to break free from one stun?
And I'm dead.7 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I hate that people always think you are either a PVEer or a PVPer and the idea that they are not mutually exclusive is ignored. Most of the best players I know do both. I try to do both. Only reason I don't PVP more is performance. It has nothing to do with toxicity.
News flash, both PVP and PVE can be toxic, but the toxicity is easy to ignore (by clicking the ignore button) and mitigate, usually by a healthy dose of L2P on your own part. Dont want to get ganked every 5 feet in cyro, learn to defend against gankers. Dont want to get called out in Groupfinder, spend some time to learn to do your role correctly.
I don't think this game needs referees TBH. Who would they be, what authority would they have, what punishments could they enforce, etc. We dont need a police state in ESO. There is already a path for anything that legitimately needs to be escalated to ZOS's attention.2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So for the second time in a week or so I'll just mention that a lot of PvEers don't PvP because they they don't enjoy it and have no interest in it. It's not why they're playing a PvE-centred mmoRPG. Some PvPers don't like PvE either, but they seem to prefer doing some PvE as a part of their preferred PvP playstyle to just playing PvP-only titles of which there are many. Of course, plenty of players enjoy both PvP and PvE in differing ratios.
One thing that certainly always ends badly is threads that set out to try and persuade or entice PvEers to try PvP, which of course many will already have done here or elsewhere in reaching their decision that they don't really enjoy it or have any continuing interest in it. Such threads invariably end up reminding those players why they reached that decision a while ago.
I don't see the OP's idea of behavioural referees having the slightest impact on how people currently feel about PvP and PvE, nor do I see the slightest chance of a developer implementing it.
ESO is just a game, no more no less, and one that different people will want to play in different ways. That's fine, there's no need to look for ways of changing that, there's room in Tamriel for all of us.
This.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I hate that people always think you are either a PVEer or a PVPer and the idea that they are not mutually exclusive is ignored. Most of the best players I know do both. I try to do both. Only reason I don't PVP more is performance. It has nothing to do with toxicity.
News flash, both PVP and PVE can be toxic, but the toxicity is easy to ignore (by clicking the ignore button) and mitigate, usually by a healthy dose of L2P on your own part. Dont want to get ganked every 5 feet in cyro, learn to defend against gankers. Dont want to get called out in Groupfinder, spend some time to learn to do your role correctly.
I don't think this game needs referees TBH. Who would they be, what authority would they have, what punishments could they enforce, etc. We dont need a police state in ESO. There is already a path for anything that legitimately needs to be escalated to ZOS's attention.
And this.
Well said, both of you!4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I actually don't find this game to be more toxic than others, in many ways it's less toxic IMO.
One thing I do think would drive a large decrease in toxicity is more opportunities for people to L2P. Right now the game has an overwhelming stuff you need to know to be decently competent, some of it is unintuitive, and the game doesn't teach you it.
A lot of the toxicity people hate comes from unequal footing, from the quester who could be beat by the PVPer in ICP by him just rolling his face on the keyboard, to the guy in group finder slowing down or hindering the progress of the entire group. Sure these are learn to play issues driving that, but this game does a pretty poor job of giving people the tools they need to learn to play.1
