Group Dungeons/Trials Role Incentive idea: Undaunted Spirit

Skullstachio · August 2021

I thought about this as I was reading a thread about how people tend to Speed run Dungeons, Leaving others behind which, metaphorically speaking, tends to leave a bad taste in peoples chompers, especially if they are new (and potentially not given a proper chance to prove themselves.) or simply to do the respective dungeon quest that offers a skill point as a reward which can be used to help build their character better for their suited role in the future.

This can be done by selecting your role via LFG, by tagging yourself for one of the three roles. These buffs/debuffs only work while in a Group Arena, Group Dungeon or Group Trial (does not work in solo areas like Maelstrom Arena or Vateshran Hollows for obvious reasons.) and only one can be used based on your chosen role. If one is not chosen, you may not be able to join with other players that have otherwise chosen theirs. Regardless, you will not be able to access DLC dungeons completely without choosing your role. (In my personal opinion, this “might” help to bridge the gap between speed runners and those who would otherwise play their roles properly, dually note this may not be the best solution to some, but we gotta start somewhere don’t we?)

As a side note, these buffs may be additive to your characters base value before any other modifiers such as armor set effects, CP constellation passive and active effects, skill passives and effects from abilities being slotted, etc. and likewise, values after the Undaunted Spirit will be affected by some form of diminishing returns.

As a Tank: Undaunted Protector

Reduces the Damage of your Damaging Abilities by 50%.
Reduces incoming Damage taken by 25%.
Reduces Incoming damage taken by 2.5% for each enemy taunted up to a maximum of 25%.
Taunted enemies take 2.5% more damage from all sources for each taunted enemy within 24 meters of you while reducing their overall damage done to Damage dealers and healers by 2.5% per taunted enemy. Up to a maximum of 25%.
Overheals you receive from healers grant you a damage shield equal to 1% of each overheals value. This damage shield value is capped at 50% of your Maximum Health.

As a Damage Dealer: Undaunted Slayer

Increase your damage done with your damaging abilities by 5% plus another 1% for every negative effect the enemies have.
Reduces your Healing received by 50%.
Overheals you receive from healers grant a flat damage boost to your next light attack equal to 1% of each Overheals value. Up to 5000 flat damage can be stored this way and is consumed upon damaging a target with a light attack.
Dealing damage to enemies increases their damage taken from Healers by 10% and increases their damage taken from tanks by 25% for 5 seconds.
Excess penetration against targets add 1 flat damage to your damaging non-ultimate abilities for every 50 points of Physical or Spell Penetration, whichever is the highest of the two.
Note: This is more noticeable on targets that have no armor and against armored targets whose armor is reduced by debuffs such as Minor/Major breach, Armor reduction from sets such as alkosh, Crimson Oath’s Rive, etc.

As a Healer: Undaunted Mender

Reduces the damage of your damaging abilities by 50%.
Increases your Recovery stats by 25% and Heavy attacks which restore your Dominant Resource will also Restore your other Resource equal to 50% of the value restored. Heavy attacks also restore your Allies Resources equal to 50% of the casters Magicka and Stamina Restored once every 5 seconds.
Increases your Healing done by up to 50% based on your targets missing Health and Increases your Healing Received by up to 50% based on your missing health.
Your Area of Effect Healing Abilities deal Magic Damage to target enemies equal to 50% of the potential Healing done. Note: Damage done this way can be mitigated by spell resistance and other damage reduction factors.
Buffs Granted to allies by the caster have their Potency Increased by 100% and the Duration increased by 10%.

What are your thoughts? Constructive criticism is welcome and if applicable, share some ideas on how it could be improved.
(Also gonna tag @Noctume and @Arkew as their conversational criticisms sparked the potential inspiration necessary to bring this about.)
Edit: spelling error.

preevious · August 2021

I think it's a pretty clever Idea, but I'd tweak it a little, as follows :

It should only work in dungeon finder of groups < 4. If premades wnat to run 3/4 DDS, there's not sense in punishing them for it.
It should gives only maluses, not bonuses, because of the reason above. Premade would be penalized by not having the bonus. So, yes, reduced damage on tanks and healers (I don't really know what malus you could give to a DD, though)

EDIT : bonus could be given, though, if groups of 4 were free to choose any roles combination.

EF321 · August 2021

Skullstachio wrote: »

As a Tank: Undaunted Protector
Reduces the Damage of your Damaging Abilities by 50%.

As a Healer: Undaunted Mender
Reduces the damage of your damaging abilities by 50%.

It is not rare for me to do half of the group damage on a tank, and 70% of group damage on a healer, while performing my chosen role.

Such amazing ideas would stop me from queuing as support roles altogether. I don't want to spend hours in crypt of hearts, because CP800+ DDs somehow only manage to do 3k dps.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2021

It's a clever idea. The obvious draw back is that you are effectively nerfing the crap out of content for any group that actually plays to the traditional trinity. Things like Dungeon Trifectas would become trivial.

You also nerf the potential for a very competent tank or healer to help carry a dungeon group by also putting out DPS. I do more than half the DPS on average when I queue as a healer. I usually queue as a healer, but really am a hybrid DPS/healer (don't call me a fake healer because I absolutely heal the group). I carry a lot of groups that way. You nerf my ability to DPS, well, I am probably going to stop queuing altogether.

The best way to fix the current situation is to make DLC a toggle, and to buff Random Veteran rewards. This would accomplish a few things. First, most people speed running normals for transmutes would select vet if the reward justified the increase in time. Second, if you could disable DLC you would almost certainly get more overall people in the queue for randoms, and therefore, specifically more support roles willing to give their actual role a try. I am a perfectly competent tank, but I dont touch random vets on mine, because I dont want to get involved in a 3 hour MOS, or whatever the flavor is that day.

With 4 Random Queue options:

1. Normal Base game only
2. Normal Base + DLC
3. Vet Base game only
4. Vet Base + DLC.

You could safely remove roll requirements completely for #1, and realistically allow 1 tank (even call it support) and 3 DPS for #2. You could probably require a Tank and 3DPS for #3, and really only require the full trinity for #4. This would wildly speed up the queue, and greatly decrease the failure rate.

ixthUA · August 2021

Groups don't need role buffs, this would invalidate hard work and achievements people have put to complete veteran dungeons as they are now.
Veteran dungeons don't need a better reward, otherwise speedrunners will move there and start ruining social experience for remaining social players. Many veteran dungeons can be speedrunned, and only worse time/reward coefficient is keeping speedrunners at bay.
All i have seen so far was people trying to punish other players for doing normal dungeons in the most optimal way.
Instead the core problem should be addressed - veteran players doing normal dungeons. Simply moving 10 transmutes to alternative way of obtaining would remove majority of speedrunners.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

Groups don't need role buffs, this would invalidate hard work and achievements people have put to complete veteran dungeons as they are now.
Veteran dungeons don't need a better reward, otherwise speedrunners will move there and start ruining social experience for remaining social players. Many veteran dungeons can be speedrunned, and only worse time/reward coefficient is keeping speedrunners at bay.
All i have seen so far was people trying to punish other players for doing normal dungeons in the most optimal way.
Instead the core problem should be addressed - veteran players doing normal dungeons. Simply moving 10 transmutes to alternative way of obtaining would remove majority of speedrunners.

As long as there are rewards that people want in the groupfinder, there will be speed runners. I would rather they live in the vet queue than the normal queue. The other option is just remove the transmutes from the random queue. I generally dont advocate for things that would be perceived as a nerf, but it would remove the vast majority of speed runners.

The only speed runners likely still in a normal queue would be weapon farmers. Queue for Arx on normal right now and I guarantee someone is sprinting to the end for a Medusa Inferno. Adding weapon drops to other boss lootables would also help with this issue.

Arkew · August 2021

Skullstachio wrote: »

I thought about this as I was reading a thread about how people tend to Speed run Dungeons, Leaving others behind which, metaphorically speaking, tends to leave a bad taste in peoples chompers, especially if they are new (and potentially not given a proper chance to prove themselves.) or simply to do the respective dungeon quest that offers a skill point as a reward which can be used to help build their character better for their suited role in the future.

This can be done by selecting your role via LFG, by tagging yourself for one of the three roles. These buffs/debuffs only work while in a Group Arena, Group Dungeon or Group Trial (does not work in solo areas like Maelstrom Arena or Vateshran Hollows for obvious reasons.) and only one can be used based on your chosen role. If one is not chosen, you may not be able to join with other players that have otherwise chosen theirs. Regardless, you will not be able to access DLC dungeons completely without choosing your role. (In my personal opinion, this “might” help to bridge the gap between speed runners and those who would otherwise play their roles properly, dually note this may not be the best solution to some, but we gotta start somewhere don’t we?)

As a side note, these buffs may be additive to your characters base value before any other modifiers such as armor set effects, CP constellation passive and active effects, skill passives and effects from abilities being slotted, etc. and likewise, values after the Undaunted Spirit will be affected by some form of diminishing returns.

As a Tank: Undaunted Protector
Reduces the Damage of your Damaging Abilities by 50%.

Reduces incoming Damage taken by 25%.

Reduces Incoming damage taken by 2.5% for each enemy taunted up to a maximum of 25%.

Taunted enemies take 2.5% more damage from all sources for each taunted enemy within 24 meters of you while reducing their overall damage done to Damage dealers and healers by 2.5% per taunted enemy. Up to a maximum of 25%.

Overheals you receive from healers grant you a damage shield equal to 1% of each overheals value. This damage shield value is capped at 50% of your Maximum Health.

As a Damage Dealer: Undaunted Slayer
Increase your damage done with your damaging abilities by 5% plus another 1% for every negative effect the enemies have.

Reduces your Healing received by 50%.

Overheals you receive from healers grant a flat damage boost to your next light attack equal to 1% of each Overheals value. Up to 5000 flat damage can be stored this way and is consumed upon damaging a target with a light attack.

Dealing damage to enemies increases their damage taken from Healers by 10% and increases their damage taken from tanks by 25% for 5 seconds.

Excess penetration against targets add 1 flat damage to your damaging non-ultimate abilities for every 50 points of Physical or Spell Penetration, whichever is the highest of the two.
Note: This is more noticeable on targets that have no armor and against armored targets whose armor is reduced by debuffs such as Minor/Major breach, Armor reduction from sets such as alkosh, Crimson Oath’s Rive, etc.

As a Healer: Undaunted Mender
Reduces the damage of your damaging abilities by 50%.

Increases your Recovery stats by 25% and Heavy attacks which restore your Dominant Resource will also Restore your other Resource equal to 50% of the value restored. Heavy attacks also restore your Allies Resources equal to 50% of the casters Magicka and Stamina Restored once every 5 seconds.

Increases your Healing done by up to 50% based on your targets missing Health and Increases your Healing Received by up to 50% based on your missing health.

Your Area of Effect Healing Abilities deal Magic Damage to target enemies equal to 50% of the potential Healing done. Note: Damage done this way can be mitigated by spell resistance and other damage reduction factors.

Buffs Granted to allies by the caster have their Potency Increased by 100% and the Duration increased by 10%.

What are your thoughts? Constructive criticism is welcome and if applicable, share some ideas on how it could be improved.
(Also gonna tag @Noctume and @Arkew as their conversational criticisms sparked the potential inspiration necessary to bring this about.)
Edit: spelling error.

i have nothing else to say