Make a version of dungeon finder for trials

ixthUA · August 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem is twofold. First, fake roles. You can't run a trial with a fake tank. Doesn't matter if it's normal or vet, a fake tank will wipe the group. This gets worse when you realize that trials do have flexible role setups. Sometimes you want 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DPS, sometimes you legitimately do not need one of those tanks, and it depends on the trial. There are even strategies for specific trials which require a third tank. You cannot use a groupfinder without knowing what you'll need, and will all go down the slide, when you start getting fake tanks and fake healers who are like, "buh, you dun need tanks or healers for anything."

Second, trials (especially vet trials) require far more group coordination than dungeons. Expecting PUGs to know what they're supposed to do, when any one of them can cause a wipe is unrealistic.

The only real solution would be to neuter the content to the point where there's no real challenge, but, at that point, you're not getting a group finder for trials, you're just getting dungeons with a larger party.

People rarely queue as fake roles to veteran dungeons. In FFXIV extreme trials are very challenging, still people go to trial finder to practice, until they are ready for premade experienced group.

BoGyesz · August 2021

Craglorn zone chat is not better than a trial finder. Totally random people get together and do (most) normal trials just fine. That's been my experience.

starkerealm · August 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

People rarely queue as fake roles to veteran dungeons.

[snip]

People rarely succeed at fake roles in vet dungeons. And they get kicked far more reliably. But, they still exist, and the DPS who sat in queue for 45 minutes to get that far get to sit even longer while the GF slowly ticks around to give them another tank.

ixthUA wrote: »

In FFXIV extreme trials are very challenging, still people go to trial finder to practice, until they are ready for premade experienced group.

You can't fake your role in 14.

Beyond that, I've seen top end 14 content. It is way less chaotic, and less dynamic than vet DLC trials.

The issue with ESO vet trials isn't the individual difficulty, it's the coordination required. That's that point where I question the idea that GF pugs have a chance of completing.

[Edited for Baiting]

Pevey · August 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

People rarely queue as fake roles to veteran dungeons.

[snip]

People rarely succeed at fake roles in vet dungeons. And they get kicked far more reliably. But, they still exist, and the DPS who sat in queue for 45 minutes to get that far get to sit even longer while the GF slowly ticks around to give them another tank.

ixthUA wrote: »

In FFXIV extreme trials are very challenging, still people go to trial finder to practice, until they are ready for premade experienced group.

You can't fake your role in 14.

Beyond that, I've seen top end 14 content. It is way less chaotic, and less dynamic than vet DLC trials.

The issue with ESO vet trials isn't the individual difficulty, it's the coordination required. That's that point where I question the idea that GF pugs have a chance of completing.

[Edited for Baiting]

Your line of reasoning ignores the fact that trial pugs succeed all the time. Vet trial pugs are rare and when they do happen, everyone knows it’s a bait run. But I’ve still done a few just to see vet on a new trial and get some practice before a scheduled run. And what do you know, one of those recently succeeded (vRG).

You have good reasons for not pugging trials. For the most part, I agree with those reasons.

However, I and a lot of other people choose to pug them anyway. We are requesting a better way to do this in game. I honestly can’t see any reason that anyone—and especially someone who would never use the tool—could have any problem with such a tool existing.

Aardappelboom · August 2021

Yes, I don't mind pugs, just add trials in the dungeon finder, for some of us trials are just "harder to reach content" at this point so it's only logical trials are added to the list.

ixthUA · August 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

People rarely succeed at fake roles in vet dungeons.

Yes, so they rarely queue as fake roles. What was your point?

starkerealm wrote: »

You can't fake your role in 14.

You can, and it has nothing to do with practicing runs in trial finder.

Eviction · August 2021

There would be mass wipes during the trials it wouldn't work.. Join a guild that does weekly trials lol..

Pevey · August 2021

Eviction wrote: »

There would be mass wipes during the trials it wouldn't work.. Join a guild that does weekly trials lol..

I can’t remember the last time a pug trial I joined wiped once on normal.

Just so as not to assume, in case anyone is unaware, pug trials are currently happening all the time. The vast majority are successful. The OPs request was to add a feature in game that makes forming these pug trials a lot easier.

I lead pugs all the time. Yes, I also am part of 2 weekly scheduled teams, but that is the limit of set times I can commit to. I’m lucky to be able to spend a lot of free time playing eso. But the time I have available is sometimes unpredictable. For that reason, I do a lot of pugs. Go to craglorn, x up for something that looks interesting.

I also sometimes start a group if there is a particular trial I want to do and I haven’t seen it in chat for a very long time. The process of doing this is cumbersome. You type out your LFM in chat. And then you use your guilds to try to port to other instances of Craglorn so that you can fill the group in a reasonable time. And you post in your guild chat channels. If you are lucky, you can fill a group before some people start to give up and bail or x up for something else.

There has to be a better way.

Any argument against pugging trials is irrelevant. It happens. All the time. And zos is never going to ban LFM in craglorn just so a few pugs don’t wipe. That’s ridiculous. They clearly have nothing against pugs. So make it easier for the organizer to get one going.

starkerealm · August 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

People rarely succeed at fake roles in vet dungeons.

Yes, so they rarely queue as fake roles. What was your point?

If only it were that simple.

But, I still regularly see fake roles popping up in the groupfinder.

In fact, since I wrote that post and when I'm writing this one, I watched a stamblade who queued for tank get the boot.

starkerealm · August 2021

Pevey wrote: »

Your line of reasoning ignores the fact that trial pugs succeed all the time.

There is a critical difference between the current trial PUGs, and a hypothetical groupfinder pug: The current PUGs have learned to read their chat.

I get that this may sound harsh, but there is a huge quality difference between PUGs you'll put together in zone (even for 4 man content) and groupfinder PUGs. I've seen trial PUGs fall apart, but it's rare. On the other hand, I've watched players rage quit on the first boss in vet dungeons in GF PUGs. (In contrast, I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone rage quit in a premade, even when it was a PUG.)

If you want to get into trials, then the answer is, probably, to hit Craglorn, and hop into whatever zone is offering. (And, yes, I know you run PUGs, I read that post.)

Pevey · August 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Your line of reasoning ignores the fact that trial pugs succeed all the time.

There is a critical difference between the current trial PUGs, and a hypothetical groupfinder pug: The current PUGs have learned to read their chat.

I get that this may sound harsh, but there is a huge quality difference between PUGs you'll put together in zone (even for 4 man content) and groupfinder PUGs. I've seen trial PUGs fall apart, but it's rare. On the other hand, I've watched players rage quit on the first boss in vet dungeons in GF PUGs. (In contrast, I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone rage quit in a premade, even when it was a PUG.)

If you want to get into trials, then the answer is, probably, to hit Craglorn, and hop into whatever zone is offering. (And, yes, I know you run PUGs, I read that post.)

You’ve heard the opinions of people who regularly pug trials, and they are generally favorable to some sort of group finder tool built into the game. You have stated all the reasons you DON’T pug trials, and you argue against such a tool.

All I can say is.. okay. Your opinion is noted. If you don’t pug trials, I’m not sure why you feel so strongly about people who do pug them having this tool.

starkerealm · August 2021

Pevey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Your line of reasoning ignores the fact that trial pugs succeed all the time.

There is a critical difference between the current trial PUGs, and a hypothetical groupfinder pug: The current PUGs have learned to read their chat.

I get that this may sound harsh, but there is a huge quality difference between PUGs you'll put together in zone (even for 4 man content) and groupfinder PUGs. I've seen trial PUGs fall apart, but it's rare. On the other hand, I've watched players rage quit on the first boss in vet dungeons in GF PUGs. (In contrast, I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone rage quit in a premade, even when it was a PUG.)

If you want to get into trials, then the answer is, probably, to hit Craglorn, and hop into whatever zone is offering. (And, yes, I know you run PUGs, I read that post.)

You’ve heard the opinions of people who regularly pug trials, and they are generally favorable to some sort of group finder tool built into the game. You have stated all the reasons you DON’T pug trials, and you argue against such a tool.

All I can say is.. okay? Your opinion is noted. If you don’t pug trials, I’m not sure why you feel so strongly about people who do pug them having this tool.

Then you probably need to reread what I wrote. I never said that I did not pug trials. I have.

I also have extensive experience with what to expect when firing off the group finder.

Including, today alone, two fake roles. (Technically 3, but one of the fake healers was tossing shards and throwing out rapid regen... along with pulling significantly better damage than the "real" DPS combined, and as I've said before, they did their job, so I'm not going to fault them.)

And that is the problem here. The average quality of players you get in zone chat are significantly higher than the ones you get from the group finder. You'll find the occasional good player with the group finder. However, when you're working with zone, and you know this, you've got people who are at least literate enough to pay attention to chat. In many cases you're pulling people with prior experience for the content you're running, and when you're not getting those players you're much more likely to pull people who can, at least, pay attention to chat long enough to learn mechanics.

Taking inexperienced players into a trial who don't know mechanics and won't listen is not fun. Again, if you've PUGed trials, this should not be new information, and you are way more likely to get players like that out of the group finder, rather than in Zone.

BoGyesz · August 2021

The trial finder won't hurt anyone. Players preferring guild teams or playing with friends won't use it. Players who are time poor or live in a different time zone will have the option to use it. (or go to Craglorn and wait)

Pevey · August 2021

Yes, that magical x in zone chat somehow makes the pug all better. It couldn’t be that the people who pug trials and the ppl who pug dungeons (usually for crystals) are inherently different types of players.

starkerealm · August 2021

Pevey wrote: »

Yes, that magical x in zone chat somehow makes the pug all better. It couldn’t be that the people who pug trials and the ppl who pug dungeons (usually for crystals) are inherently different types of players.

It's almost like they are. Funny that.

Here's the punchline: Content gets nerfed (hard) for the GF dungeon crowd.

You want groupfinder trials, and they'd need to lose a lot of the more interesting and difficult mechanics. If you've been here for any length of time, you've seen this happen with the dungeons.

So, either, the GF would be throwing lemmings at a meatgrinder (which might be funny for a minute), or trials would be nerfed into a snoozefest (which would happen after the lemmings into the meatgrinder.)

That magical X in zone chat does cull out everyone who can't even raise themselves to that level.

Togal · August 2021

Alot of people complaining about fake tanks, you have vote kick for a reason.

starkerealm · August 2021

Togal wrote: »

Alot of people complaining about fake tanks, you have vote kick for a reason.

Yeah, the problem with that is if the tank gets kicked, you're usually going to wait a while for a replacement.

blkjag · August 2021

I guess so if people want it but to everyone saying yes have you guys experienced a harder vet dlc pug run. It normally doesn’t end well.

MashmalloMan · August 2021

I'll never understand people that are against choice. It doesn't effect your experience if you think you need to form a premade group to complete a trial, go do that. Continue to do that, as it will continue to be the best way to complete a trial effectively.

Now for the people that want a more casual experience, that want to log in and actually play the game, explore the map, and just play the damn trial when it pops, they can use the group finder. The exact same way you do now for dungeons.

Hell, normal dungeons are fine with group finder, but getting a DLC vet dungeon is sometimes a nightmare. Most people know what the run will be like within the first ad pull and leave if it's awful or push through it if people seem interested in learning mechanics. Some people love teaching mechanics and there is a certain amount of accomplishment completing a harder dungeon with complete strangers, despite all odds. Some don't have the patience for that, so guess what? They make a group to do it.

How is any of that different than a trial.

One positive thing when comparing the 2.. The ratio for roles is completely different, so you may see a better comparable queue than you do with dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dd's is 25% tank, 25% healer and 50% dd.

For trials, the average setup is 2 tanks, 2 healers and 8 dds, eg. 16% tanks, 16% healers, 66% dd. I assume this ratio is more representative of the role distribution of the entire game. DD is always the most popular of any mmo really, it's not up for debate, the group finder proves that.

Second positive, more people who are interested in trials will queue up, since they no longer need to stand in Craglorn to pug.. so more trial groups will be active at any time, instead of waiting around for hours to find the specific trial you need.

RisenEclipse · August 2021

Okay so here's my two cents on this, adding group finder for trials will only make it easier to find trial group for trials that currently are being formed in zone chat very rarely and make it easier to form trial groups altogether. That is all. So here's my reasoning for this...

Sometime last year during the last Undaunted celebration I was helping a few friends clear some normal dungeons. They weren't very good at the game and struggled with some of the more easier dungeons. I had 10X the cp then they did and offered to help them clear a few. We were doing he most easiest face roll normal dungeons you could do. All of us were DPS as like I said we were doing normal stupid easy ones and didn't need a tank or healer. I could only DPS anyways. But in order to que into the dungeon we had to pick the proper roles. I just qued in as a healer and someone picked tank. We did it and cleared the dungeon. Had a lot of fun too. Now what does this have to do with our current topic?

Well, later I wanted to do Sunspire. I pmed someone forming a group and was accepted immediately. Later a healer DCed and didn't come back. Someone mentioned that we still had a healer though and I checked on the roster to see who. To my horror I realized I had accidentally forgot to set myself back to DPS and they thought I was a healer. To be fair when I asked to join I did mention I was a DPS.

But here's the thing... not a single person asked if I knew how to heal for the dungeon. If I could do the needed amount of healing. Or knew the mechanics. In fact I don't remember ANY trial where I joined via zone of that happening. Where the dps are "cleared to join" by seeing if they know what they're doing. We are already doing pug groups with no certain knowledge that anyone in the group knows what they're doing. When joining via chat there is no dps checking, no checking to see if tanks are really tanks, nadda.

This idea would just make pug groups a lot more easier to find and would clear up chat a bit without all the hollering of "lfm 4dps nSS"...

NOTHING will change other then that. The achievement runners will continue to be a guild only thing. The super obnoxiously difficult trial hardmodes will also be something to probably be done with a guild who can practice together and dps check each other. It's literally the same as with the dungeon finder. You're not going to try to get the most important achievements with a pug group. So why are you thinking that somehow godslayer is somehow being done via a group formed in Craglorn zone? They're not. They're being done via end game guilds. That's not going to change just because you make it easier to form those pug groups.

aaisoaho · August 2021

blkjag wrote: »

I guess so if people want it but to everyone saying yes have you guys experienced a harder vet dlc pug run. It normally doesn’t end well.

I beg to differ. I have pugged all but 4 vDLC dungeons (I'm missing Fang Lair, Lair of Maarselok, Black Drake Villa and the Cauldron). I've pugged them multiple times and I remember maybe 3 times the group did not make it. Other times they did.

The guild option and zone chat option are not feasible for me. They do not work, if you're regularly playing off-hours. Crickets are the only ones hearing me say "DD LFG nCR+X", no matter where I post it. I've tried in-game chat, I've tried Discord, heck, I've tried discord by sending the LFG a day earlier and announcing the time in UTC.

I would like to get Relequen head or shoulder piece, but because I can't play in peak hours, I will not get it. A trial finder could make it possible for me to experience trials.

ceiron · August 2021

It is about free choice as someone said. Just because a feature exists you do not have to use it.

However thinking about it more it actually would have benefits

Firstly it offers people an option to trial outside of pre made groups

Secondly it occupies the terrible pugs.lol

Thirdly it helps people learn. It's a very catch 22 scenario in trials I find. People want to join but a lot of groups want experienced players.
How can you get experience if they won't train you up.

Lastly the rewards could be good. Big chunk of xp. Transmutes etc if follows same pattern.

Ippokrates · August 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'll never understand people that are against choice. It doesn't effect your experience if you think you need to form a premade group to complete a trial, go do that. Continue to do that, as it will continue to be the best way to complete a trial effectively.

Now for the people that want a more casual experience, that want to log in and actually play the game, explore the map, and just play the damn trial when it pops, they can use the group finder. The exact same way you do now for dungeons.

Hell, normal dungeons are fine with group finder, but getting a DLC vet dungeon is sometimes a nightmare. Most people know what the run will be like within the first ad pull and leave if it's awful or push through it if people seem interested in learning mechanics. Some people love teaching mechanics and there is a certain amount of accomplishment completing a harder dungeon with complete strangers, despite all odds. Some don't have the patience for that, so guess what? They make a group to do it.

How is any of that different than a trial.

One positive thing when comparing the 2.. The ratio for roles is completely different, so you may see a better comparable queue than you do with dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dd's is 25% tank, 25% healer and 50% dd.

For trials, the average setup is 2 tanks, 2 healers and 8 dds, eg. 16% tanks, 16% healers, 66% dd. I assume this ratio is more representative of the role distribution of the entire game. DD is always the most popular of any mmo really, it's not up for debate, the group finder proves that.

Second positive, more people who are interested in trials will queue up, since they no longer need to stand in Craglorn to pug.. so more trial groups will be active at any time, instead of waiting around for hours to find the specific trial you need.

Exactly (when it comes to group composition), if you are afraid of failure because of PUGs, then make your premade group with core team, (mainly tanks + at least one good healer) and then you can simply add all missing dds. Even if they would be newbie, that wouldn't be a problem because all of you are masters in making 150k dps so you are worth 5 of them ^^

So you would pass trial without problems, newbie would have a chance to gain experience & sets, even if they would be death for most of the trial - everyone is happy

francesinhalover · August 2021

Togal wrote: »

Doesn't matter much if the dps is bad or healing low because that extra 1000 weapon damage that is hidden will be useful (you get 1000 weapon damage for using dungeon finder). Also it would make it more convenient for people that don't have time/ in different time zones to participate in guild raids. Please consider this zos.

I didn't know you got 1000 wep dmg, that's awesome. has for dungeon finder it would be amazing if it was available for at least normal trials.
since vet trials are insanely hard.

maybe even make it so you have to finish the trial on vet or normal to unlock them on the trial finder.

Eso101rus · August 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Your line of reasoning ignores the fact that trial pugs succeed all the time.

There is a critical difference between the current trial PUGs, and a hypothetical groupfinder pug: The current PUGs have learned to read their chat.

I get that this may sound harsh, but there is a huge quality difference between PUGs you'll put together in zone (even for 4 man content) and groupfinder PUGs. I've seen trial PUGs fall apart, but it's rare. On the other hand, I've watched players rage quit on the first boss in vet dungeons in GF PUGs. (In contrast, I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone rage quit in a premade, even when it was a PUG.)

If you want to get into trials, then the answer is, probably, to hit Craglorn, and hop into whatever zone is offering. (And, yes, I know you run PUGs, I read that post.)

You’ve heard the opinions of people who regularly pug trials, and they are generally favorable to some sort of group finder tool built into the game. You have stated all the reasons you DON’T pug trials, and you argue against such a tool.

All I can say is.. okay? Your opinion is noted. If you don’t pug trials, I’m not sure why you feel so strongly about people who do pug them having this tool.

Then you probably need to reread what I wrote. I never said that I did not pug trials. I have.

I also have extensive experience with what to expect when firing off the group finder.

Including, today alone, two fake roles. (Technically 3, but one of the fake healers was tossing shards and throwing out rapid regen... along with pulling significantly better damage than the "real" DPS combined, and as I've said before, they did their job, so I'm not going to fault them.)

And that is the problem here. The average quality of players you get in zone chat are significantly higher than the ones you get from the group finder. You'll find the occasional good player with the group finder. However, when you're working with zone, and you know this, you've got people who are at least literate enough to pay attention to chat. In many cases you're pulling people with prior experience for the content you're running, and when you're not getting those players you're much more likely to pull people who can, at least, pay attention to chat long enough to learn mechanics.

Taking inexperienced players into a trial who don't know mechanics and won't listen is not fun. Again, if you've PUGed trials, this should not be new information, and you are way more likely to get players like that out of the group finder, rather than in Zone.

Yeah, I agree with this. I would prefer Zos invest in a more engaging group finder for dungeons where like minded players are grouped for a more rounded experience. Whether this be choice of group members from who is available or picked upon title rank maybe. I don’t think cp is a denominator as I’ve seen lots of sub 600cp completely surpass damage of 1800cp who have high cp due to questing, grinding etc.

The bugs in group finder exist for dungeons and would be magnified in trials. I think craglorn grouping for pugs works fine for what it does, maybe people need to find a voice socially, do some trial research or join a casual guild. Ultimately it’s down to the players to learn their role and specifically for different trials. There are many guilds that offer starter trials to help teach mechanics and farm gear.

The player base needs to take a responsible look at itself before jumping into group content, if your unsure of your build, role, skill, mechanics etc do a little research before expecting others to carry you through content.

Amottica · August 2021

Pevey wrote: »

None of this changes by x in chat. You are saying no to trial pugs in general. Fine, they aren’t for you. But a lot of people do pug trials, and we are asking for a better way. You’ve presented no reason against this, just reasons against pugging trials.

Actually, it does change. I have formed raids in other games where we filled out remaining slots from general chat. I should accept or reject people who asked to join the group. Usually, they went well because there was a leader and occasionally I would have to kick a player who was being a jerk.

There is no leader with a trial finder. It would be 12 people doing whatever they wanted. The crown would be meaningless and it would require a majority of the group to vote to kick which means that jerk could easily be around longer and mess up the group.

The threads complaining about groups and players they get in dungeon GF groups strongly supports the messes that can and will happen with a trial finder.

Oh, and personally I could care less if Zenimax adds such a tool as I took the time to find good guilds which mean I have raid opportunities constantly. I merely make the comment because I think it would be a very poor business decision for Zeni to add this based on what I already said about dungeons in this game and how poorly these work in other games.

Pevey · August 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

None of this changes by x in chat. You are saying no to trial pugs in general. Fine, they aren’t for you. But a lot of people do pug trials, and we are asking for a better way. You’ve presented no reason against this, just reasons against pugging trials.

Actually, it does change. I have formed raids in other games where we filled out remaining slots from general chat. I should accept or reject people who asked to join the group. Usually, they went well because there was a leader and occasionally I would have to kick a player who was being a jerk.

There is no leader with a trial finder. It would be 12 people doing whatever they wanted. The crown would be meaningless and it would require a majority of the group to vote to kick which means that jerk could easily be around longer and mess up the group.

The threads complaining about groups and players they get in dungeon GF groups strongly supports the messes that can and will happen with a trial finder.

Oh, and personally I could care less if Zenimax adds such a tool as I took the time to find good guilds which mean I have raid opportunities constantly. I merely make the comment because I think it would be a very poor business decision for Zeni to add this based on what I already said about dungeons in this game and how poorly these work in other games.

So go back and re-read the comments before responding. There’s no reason that a trial tool would have to work exactly the same, and I specifically said there would need to be a raid leader/organizer. You opt in to their trial. Don’t like their way of doing things? You make your own group.

Honestly, I think people are too quick to be negative or to find an argument or reason something shouldn’t exist. This is why we can’t have nice things.

What I have described it just an improvement over x in chat. A way to post a trial and have people opt in without having to do that through chat, going zone to zone. It takes some serious acrobatics to try to argue against us having such a tool.

TwinStripeUK · August 2021

Just going to ask this question of all those opposed to some kind of 'Trial Finder' on the grounds of 'fake roles':

What's the difference between someone lying about their role on Dungeon Finder and someone lying about it in chat or on Discord?

The only way to avoid 'fake roles' without immensely complex 'back end' code (which will impact the game for everyone else) is for people to start reporting the offenders rather than just kicking them from the group.

It sounds like a real *** move, but if it's that much of a problem, then it calls for harsher measures

If you kick them, they'll just wait around for the next mugs to turn up.

Reporting them for disruption might just earn them a time-out which may make them think twice.

radiostar · August 2021

It would be good to have an alternative way to group up and learn trials. But if it's out of your comfort zone, you could just keep to the conventional ways and not miss a beat. The only thing that might happen is we see less requests for trial runs in Craglorn chat and more for powerleveling or world boss runs. And maybe more people would get access to trial gear drops, but that's ok because you can't sell gear anymore, only trade it within the group for a limited time. There's no need to be control-freaky over it.

Franchise408 · August 2021

I believe that a trial group finder would likely lead to disastrous results, but I do think it should exist for those that want it. Those that don't want to use it wouldn't have to.