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Will they ever adjust Warden for PvP
shezof
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Solo play,group play,open world,battlegrounds,duels. Basically all forms of PvP. At this point im bloody tired from playing against wardens. enough is enough. this class both stamina and magicka (albeit stamina is stronger) dominates PvP. why play any other build or class when you have sustain,tankiness,burst all in one. a regular joe logging in for few hours of pvp can easily see this. wardens everywhere.
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fullheartcontainer✭✭✭✭Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
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ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭magicka warden is not strong this patch. And even worse next patch since it's already abysmal self healing is getting lowered even further due to the battle spirit changes.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on August 8, 2021 6:49AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
Out of curiosity, how far back do those stats go?1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »
If you don't believe me, check our tooltips or better yet, load up a magicka warden for yourself and try to heal yourself. Major Mending doesn't always equal amazing self healing.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX5 -
fullheartcontainer✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
Out of curiosity, how far back do those stats go?
That's actually kind of tricky to answer because the stats go back about three years but with large hiatuses away from game and I've tended to come back on big patches. It's certainly not "this patch" 100% accurate but it's a pretty good overview of the fights I've been in over the course of major patches in the past few years.1 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
That’s really interesting. By those numbers it looks like NB is most popular but Templar has hands down the best k/d. I’d be very interested to see these numbers for the current patch. I feel like I fight tons of wardens and necrosis, but they may stand out more for their tankiness with burst.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭fullheartcontainer wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
Out of curiosity, how far back do those stats go?
That's actually kind of tricky to answer because the stats go back about three years but with large hiatuses away from game and I've tended to come back on big patches. It's certainly not "this patch" 100% accurate but it's a pretty good overview of the fights I've been in over the course of major patches in the past few years.
Thanks, I was mostly curious if it had any pre-Morrowind data. Sounds like no.0 -
fullheartcontainer✭✭✭✭Dalsinthus wrote: »fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
That’s really interesting. By those numbers it looks like NB is most popular but Templar has hands down the best k/d. I’d be very interested to see these numbers for the current patch. I feel like I fight tons of wardens and necrosis, but they may stand out more for their tankiness with burst.
Yeah at a KD of around 10:1, if I was gonna guess why I kill templars so much more than they kill me my hypothesis would be because they are primarily healers and don't often have the damage to kill me
I guess I should also note that all these stats come from me playing a primarily solo 1vX or occasional small group stamplar. My class and gameplay style definitely affects stats.Edited by fullheartcontainer on August 9, 2021 4:06AM1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm surprised to see that OP doesn't even mention Necromancers because those are just as overperforming as stamden and everyone who's being honest knows that.
Those threw specs are far better than any others and anyone who wants to have the best results with the lowest effort will play those and will do significantly better than wasting their time on a different spec.
Also a screenshot of kill counter stats means nothing when it comes to balance, it's not even a proper way of showing how much a class is used because it only tracks kills which means that classes which don't die as easy will show up less often.
Also the death counter is even less meaningful because KC only tracks a single person as your killer which favors different specs more than others.
Stamwarden and both Necromancers are overperforming and both the warden and necromancer class should be completely reworked.6 -
Marcus_Aurelius✭✭✭✭✭
Also a screenshot of kill counter stats means nothing when it comes to balance, i
Stamwarden and both Necromancers are overperforming and both the warden and necromancer class should be completely reworked.
Yes let's deny numbers and only rely on wrong perceptions.
Let's still call for nerf to wardens.
Why wardens are rarely killing me if they are so mighty and powerfull?
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »
Also a screenshot of kill counter stats means nothing when it comes to balance, i
Stamwarden and both Necromancers are overperforming and both the warden and necromancer class should be completely reworked.
Yes let's deny numbers and only rely on wrong perceptions.
Let's still call for nerf to wardens.
Why wardens are rarely killing me if they are so mighty and powerfull?
I heard you're on Pc EU, please let me introduce you to some people in a duel and show us how weak warden is by beating them
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Marcus_Aurelius✭✭✭✭✭I heard you're on Pc EU, please let me introduce you to some people in a duel and show us how weak warden is by beating them
No problem, can I come on my Magsorc?
You could also come to some BGs where 3 of 4 players are magsorcs. People are really so bad that they choose another class instead of Wardens?
Warden are very good in Ball Groups or against people that love to follow them inside a tower.
Maybe people should learn instead of crying for nerfs?Edited by Marcus_Aurelius on August 9, 2021 7:24AM3 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »
Also a screenshot of kill counter stats means nothing when it comes to balance, i
Stamwarden and both Necromancers are overperforming and both the warden and necromancer class should be completely reworked.
Yes let's deny numbers and only rely on wrong perceptions.
Let's still call for nerf to wardens.
Why wardens are rarely killing me if they are so mighty and powerfull?
Numbers dont mean anything if they are inaccurate of the situation. This is going to be long TL;DR at bottom.
1. Your numbers are way too low for a real statistic to be reputable. Its like asking 10 individuals what their opinion is about pineapple on pizza and everyone says its good. This doesnt mean everyone likes pineapple on pizza just because your statistic says 100%
2. Only thing this shows is the population of different classes in cyro, nb beeing the most popular along with sorcerer. If you walk into cyro you will see that this is some what accurate.
3. Best way to find out is to compare kills/death to find out what class you struggle the most against. From the other guys post it will look like this.
Templar: 2296/255= 9.004
Dragonknight: 2160/294= 7.347
Nightblade: 2704/816= 3.314
Sorcerer: 1918/451= 4.253
Warden: 1538/392= 3.923
Necromancer: 479/86= 5.570
So in a 1vX situation the lowest KDR is against nightblades, warden, sorcerer, necromancer with dragonknight and templar far away out of reach.
But even these statistics are flawed, why? Because of the population of classes in cyro. If you fight 5 players there are usually 2 sorcs 2 nightblades and maybe one of the other classes. This means its way higher chance for the sorc/nb to get the killing blow.
Alot of nightblades are bombers/gankers which might skew the stats as well. They are also regularily built with full damage in cyro, which will kill you alot more in 1vX situations.
There is no way for these statistics to be accurate. You could argue about 1v1 encounters only, but 1v1 builds are completely different fron openworld builds.
I used to joke with my friends about how every stam build is better on a stamnecro, sad but true. More heals, tankier and delayed burst. The reason people think these classes are overpowered is their ability to 1vx, nightblade has cloak which throws people off because they cant read their opponent. Sorcerer has streak which splits opponent based on their movement speed/mobility. Warden and necro has their tankiness. Dragonknight used to have high tankiness and heals, but wardens and necros are better in that aspect. Templars imo has never had a good toolkit to 1vx like other classes.
TD;DR Class population imbalance in cyro is making statistics inaccurate. Their ability to 1vx is what makes people think classes are overpowered.7 -
Marcus_Aurelius✭✭✭✭✭Their ability to 1vx is what makes people think classes are overpowered.
They can 1vX because people love to follow them in situations where they shines, tower and other places where they can kite around, build ultimates and then burst people that are running to catch them and don't know the concept of blocking.
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Daffen✭✭✭✭Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »Their ability to 1vx is what makes people think classes are overpowered.
They can 1vX because people love to follow them in situations where they shines, tower and other places where they can kite around, build ultimates and then burst people that are running to catch them and don't know the concept of blocking.
That is true for every class, but its the class' toolkit which makes them different and stronger than other in different situations. Nbs and sorcs are able to kite enemies in open field and kill them, something no other classes are able to do as good as them. Wardens and necros are able to stand their ground ontop of a tower for example and stack enemies for a ult dump, sorcs and nb arent able to do that. Dk and templar might be able to do it, but not as good as warden/necro.0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭I don't know; those numbers look about right to me. The class I see most of in Cyro is NBs - they're everywhere - followed probably by sorcs. Then it's probably wardens, followed by necros. Templars and Dks seem rarer. Stam obviously predominant but not as much as you'd think given the commentary.
As to OP, I don't really see it. I feel my magsorc, warden and necro do ok, and my NB just resets the fight or leaves if it isn't going his way if that's your thing, but my temp and dk struggle. Don't even mention my magblade. The thing is though, they each do good at different things, and fighting diferent classes. PVP is ultimately rock paper scissors; I'm sure it feels brutally unfair when someone's paper beats your rock, but then you're probably forgetting all those scissors you just flattened without a second thought...
I get this is the forums and they seem to exist so people can try and get anything that kills them nerfed (because it must be "OP" if it killed them, right) but maybe focus on the positive; I personally don't think we need more nerfs round here. I don't know what class you play, but I think we all know some of the esp older classes have gaps; what do you think they need to become more competitive?
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Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭That is true for every class, but its the class' toolkit which makes them different and stronger than other in different situations.
May be pvdoor funs don't know but there is no different situations in Cyrodiil. When you reset a fight it's loss but without death and that reset it's not just for yourself but for a clear winner too. And that is bring us to a fact that when you decide to reset a fight then you lost a objective fight. Add here AoE spammable with damage of an ultimate, builin purge, heal and tankiness and ask then who is clear winner0 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »That is true for every class, but its the class' toolkit which makes them different and stronger than other in different situations.
May be pvdoor funs don't know but there is no different situations in Cyrodiil. When you reset a fight it's loss but without death and that reset it's not just for yourself but for a clear winner too. And that is bring us to a fact that when you decide to reset a fight then you lost a objective fight. Add here AoE spammable with damage of an ultimate, builin purge, heal and tankiness and ask then who is clear winner
There are different situations all the time, not every fight is next to a keep/outpost/resource.
Sometimes you are riding to a keep and 5 random players appear from nowhere and start attacking you. Now the situation is different from if you were on a resource flipping the flag because the terrain is different. Maybe theres a couple rocks, maybe some trees, or nothing at all. Sorcs/nb would have higher survival rate than any other class because of mobility and cloak if there is nothing to kite around.
If you reset a fight by streaking, cloaking or running away then you lost the fight if they did NOT chase. This almost never happens cuz everyone wants to kill you no matter what so the fight continues. You are not going to win a 3v1 against decent players in open field. And not every fight is about the objective, personally i only play for the fun in PvP by fighting players.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
I honestly read that as two things:
1. Nightblades are popular (rouge/stealth architypes are always popular). Statistically speaking, you will probably kill and get killed by the most abundant class, all else equal.
2. Your inability to effectively defend against gankers is showing up in the stats, which is how most nightblades get kills.
This is also a VERY small sample size, so any conclusions could certainly be skewed.
I play a fair amount of sorc, which admittedly are one of the better ganker killers out there (we can shield quickly to prevent a gank, and use curse to keep them out of cloak to prevent escape). NB is at the top of my kill list and near the bottom of my killed by list.
Stam Warden is the most powerful class in Cyro and has been for years. Sure, things fluctuate, but if you had to pick a meta for the last 2-3 years in PVP, it is certainly stam warden.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 9, 2021 5:01PM5 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭There are different situations all the time, not every fight is next to a keep/outpost/resource.Sometimes you are riding to a keep and 5 random players appear from nowhere and start attacking you. Now the situation is different from if you were on a resource flipping the flag because the terrain is different. Maybe theres a couple rocks, maybe some trees, or nothing at all. Sorcs/nb would have higher survival rate than any other class because of mobility and cloak if there is nothing to kite around.
If you reset a fight by streaking, cloaking or running away then you lost the fight if they did NOT chase. This almost never happens cuz everyone wants to kill you no matter what so the fight continues. You are not going to win a 3v1 against decent players in open field. And not every fight is about the objective, personally i only play for the fun in PvP by fighting players.
No, they are exactly the same: you are going with your allies for objectives or you are going pointless fights from your examples that bring nothing, serve to nothing. Cyro is the worts place to have random PvP fights due to 0 reward, far respawn and lack even a remote balance in that pvdoor
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Daffen✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »There are different situations all the time, not every fight is next to a keep/outpost/resource.Sometimes you are riding to a keep and 5 random players appear from nowhere and start attacking you. Now the situation is different from if you were on a resource flipping the flag because the terrain is different. Maybe theres a couple rocks, maybe some trees, or nothing at all. Sorcs/nb would have higher survival rate than any other class because of mobility and cloak if there is nothing to kite around.
If you reset a fight by streaking, cloaking or running away then you lost the fight if they did NOT chase. This almost never happens cuz everyone wants to kill you no matter what so the fight continues. You are not going to win a 3v1 against decent players in open field. And not every fight is about the objective, personally i only play for the fun in PvP by fighting players.
No, they are exactly the same: you are going with your allies for objectives or you are going pointless fights from your examples that bring nothing, serve to nothing. Cyro is the worts place to have random PvP fights due to 0 reward, far respawn and lack even a remote balance in that pvdoor
Either you are not reading what im writing or just rejecting everything i say.
You dont pick where your fights are openworld. Sure they are most likely in a keep/outpost/resource. But you can also get attacked in the middle of nowhere while you are riding between keeps in the middle of nowhere.
I also said i dont care about objectives, only the fights i am able to get. And i dont ride with my allies because i dont type LFG in chat to zerg down keeps, i like to go around solo to get 1vx fights.2 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »I heard you're on Pc EU, please let me introduce you to some people in a duel and show us how weak warden is by beating them
No problem, can I come on my Magsorc?
You could also come to some BGs where 3 of 4 players are magsorcs. People are really so bad that they choose another class instead of Wardens?
Warden are very good in Ball Groups or against people that love to follow them inside a tower.
Maybe people should learn instead of crying for nerfs?
I can solo queue in a premade BG facing off against 2 groups of 4 top tier mag sorcs each and still can pretty much go without a death. (1v4v4's used to be a thing before solo queues and if you have the highest BG MMR)
Its not that I am a god tier player myself but mag sorc LACKS the tools to kill anyone halfway decent. If you really cannot defend against mag sorc, you will pretty much die against any other class1 -
Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭Tbh - probably 80% of what I've been seeing since Flames update is NB, Sorc, and Templar.
The age of templar is coming. Mark my words :P2 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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That is because Warden is behind paywall, so naturally base game class is played more. Not every one has warden & necro.fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NAEdited by Tommy_The_Gun on August 13, 2021 5:13PM1 -
Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »That is because Warden is behind paywall, so naturally base game class is played more. Not every one has warden & necro.
What pay wall is this? I had both classes when I got the game.
Are there really that many folks pulling free base game off Xbox/PS game pass stuff?1 -
theCampeR_✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is because Warden is behind paywall, so naturally base game class is played more. Not every one has warden & necro.fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
Warden is included in the base game since years now. Your statement couldn't be further away from the truth.2 -
Zabagad✭✭✭✭✭
✭theCampeR_ wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is because Warden is behind paywall, so naturally base game class is played more. Not every one has warden & necro.fullheartcontainer wrote: »Are they though? Looking at the stats in one of my pvp addons, there is one class that far outperforms the others and it isnt warden. Warden is barely played at all. I guess maybe you had a bad encounter with a tanky warden or something that deleted you, but statistically you're wrong about everyone rolling one and them dominating pvp. At least on PC-NA
Warden is included in the base game since years now. Your statement couldn't be further away from the truth.
Are you sure about that? When I look into the crown store, I can buy Warden side by side with Necro...?As a non-pet sorc since 2016 the U46 Patch Notes sound like: "Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line eso as a whole."2
