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fee for changing roles, but allowing premades of 4 to queue regardless of what roles are chosen
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Meredy✭✭✭Can't we just have a separated dungeon finder with no role defined? The only requirement would be max one player with taunt ability.
Given the current nature of RND, I don't feel safe to trust a random tank or healer anyway, and I'm probably not alone.
that's the thing I suggested for premades, but people fail at reading. Furthermore I agree that having another queue without role requirements for normal would be cool1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.
Until you meet that stamblade, "I am melee so I get damaged so I chose tank because he takes damage for allies!" <= True story.Edited by zvavi on August 8, 2021 6:41PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.
It is amazing to me how all these threads are specifically talking about SOLO NORMAL RANDOM dungeon finder and the problem of fake tank/healers that has become insane, NOT AT ALL ABOUT VET OR PREMADE. Yet the same people who this would NOT affect at all because they say they only do PREMADE OR VET jump in to attack any ideas (WHICH HAS NO AFFECT ON THEM).
As I stated many times one solution would be
1. 1 normal queue with roles (current system)
2. 1 speedrunner queue with no roles (which would reduce the amount of DDs in the normal queue also and satisfy speedrunners at the same time)
But if ZOS doesn't like the idea of speedrunners and doesn't want to reward that behavior then as I said they could have a 'role based test' like
1. tank must taunt main bosses X% of time throughout dungeon
2. healer must be actually healing others
If these fakers aren't doing the bare minimum at the end they get no rewards. Very, very simple. Faking would be eliminated overnight if they didn't get 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
BTW the problem with kicking the speedrunners now (because I have tried it many times) is that you have to have the other 2 people agree and for some reason they don't want to do it. Also the problem with reporting people to get bans is that the toxic players would be reporting people who didn't do anything wrong to retaliate.
BTW I am be facetious about taking rewards away from low DPS in Vet, that was a joke because if you use dungeon finder for Vet dungeons you never know what you will get. If you go into Vet dungeons, you should at least have 1 DD and 1 tank that know what they are doing, if not a whole premade team. And as stated before if NORMAL wasn't full of speedrunners people might be a lot better in the Vet queue. Normal used to be a great 'training area', 'tutorial', 'stepping stone' to get good enough to do Vet, now it is a mess.
One final point, this 'no rewards fix' shouldn't affect below level 50 as they may be brand new to game or PREMADES in any way.Edited by Merforum on August 8, 2021 6:54PM2 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.
It is amazing to me how all these threads are specifically talking about SOLO NORMAL RANDOM dungeon finder and the problem of fake tank/healers that has become insane, NOT AT ALL ABOUT VET OR PREMADE. Yet the same people who this would NOT affect at all because they say they only do PREMADE OR VET jump in to attack any ideas (WHICH HAS NO AFFECT ON THEM).
As I stated many times one solution would be
1. 1 normal queue with roles (current system)
2. 1 speedrunner queue with no roles (which would reduce the amount of DDs in the normal queue also and satisfy speedrunners at the same time)
But if ZOS doesn't like the idea of speedrunners and doesn't want to reward that behavior then as I said they could have a 'role based test' like
1. tank must taunt main bosses X% of time throughout dungeon
2. healer must be actually healing others
If these fakers aren't doing the bare minimum at the end they get no rewards. Very, very simple. Faking would be eliminated overnight if they didn't get 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
BTW the problem with kicking the speedrunners now (because I have tried it many times) is that you have to have the other 2 people agree and for some reason they don't want to do it. Also the problem with reporting people to get bans is that the toxic players would be reporting people who didn't do anything wrong to retaliate.
BTW I am be facetious about taking rewards away from low DPS in Vet, that was a joke because if you use dungeon finder for Vet dungeons you never know what you will get. If you go into Vet dungeons, you should at least have 1 DD and 1 tank that know what they are doing, if not a whole premade team. And as stated before if NORMAL wasn't fully of speedrunners people might be a lot better in the Vet queue.
If the solutions didnt impact vet and premades, nobody would truly care.
Penalizing healers by witholding rewards would not be good. Many groups run without a healer, at all. Like it or not, for much of the content, many don't deem them necessary. And when they are there, buffing is a large part of what they do. So your solution would penalize my theoretical group who runs self heals or are less dependent on raw healing numbers simply because we selected a random dungeon. If that didnt extend to vet, I wouldn't personally care, but aside from levels/CP, ZOS doesnt have a different set of rules for each level of difficulty and doesnt differentiate between premades and PUGs. Unless they redesign the DF, I would expect any change to be bolted onto the existing system.
Having 2 queues would likely solve a lot of the issues though. Since this is mostly, or nearly entirely, about the transmutes and XP from the random, and the random normal is the most efficient way to get them, allowing those players to group with themselves could effectively remove them from groups that would rather play with a traditional composition.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.
It is amazing to me how all these threads are specifically talking about SOLO NORMAL RANDOM dungeon finder and the problem of fake tank/healers that has become insane, NOT AT ALL ABOUT VET OR PREMADE. Yet the same people who this would NOT affect at all because they say they only do PREMADE OR VET jump in to attack any ideas (WHICH HAS NO AFFECT ON THEM).
As I stated many times one solution would be
1. 1 normal queue with roles (current system)
2. 1 speedrunner queue with no roles (which would reduce the amount of DDs in the normal queue also and satisfy speedrunners at the same time)
But if ZOS doesn't like the idea of speedrunners and doesn't want to reward that behavior then as I said they could have a 'role based test' like
1. tank must taunt main bosses X% of time throughout dungeon
2. healer must be actually healing others
If these fakers aren't doing the bare minimum at the end they get no rewards. Very, very simple. Faking would be eliminated overnight if they didn't get 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
BTW the problem with kicking the speedrunners now (because I have tried it many times) is that you have to have the other 2 people agree and for some reason they don't want to do it. Also the problem with reporting people to get bans is that the toxic players would be reporting people who didn't do anything wrong to retaliate.
BTW I am be facetious about taking rewards away from low DPS in Vet, that was a joke because if you use dungeon finder for Vet dungeons you never know what you will get. If you go into Vet dungeons, you should at least have 1 DD and 1 tank that know what they are doing, if not a whole premade team. And as stated before if NORMAL wasn't fully of speedrunners people might be a lot better in the Vet queue.
1. Op quite literally suggested locking roles, which is 100% affecting vet.
2. Both of your suggestion are bad.
Why suggestion 1 is bad:
There are, quite a few tanks, that would like a consistent clear. Which will end up with occasional groups of 2 t 2 h and no damage in the "speed run queue".
Additionally you will be hurting real tanks by subjecting them to relatively weaker dds. And you will be hurting the weaker dds, since now you will have to wait even longer to queue. It will end up just like BG. Out of prime time it will be impossible to get a group in the queue that is longer (the "normal queue," while also making sure both queues are slower than they currently are (it will literally make specific dungeons impossible to get for dds in the normal queue).
Why suggestion 2 is bad:
Tank POV:
there are untauntable bosses. And dds that make you stuck in combat behind doors. And you quite literally can miss the boss with how fast they die in normal. Or if you suck and dead on the floor you also get no reward.
Healer POV:
dmg in normal dungeons is almost neglectable, so not only you can end up not needing to heal anyone, if group splits (happens) you can't heal, if they are wearing pale order, can't heal, if dds got full health cause self heals (surge, swallow soul etc) you can't heal, and you guessed it, if you are dead, can't heal.
Dd POV: that's the unfair part. No responsibilities. No penalties. Can grief both other roles. And force penalties on them.
Generally your first idea just splits queue into 2 queues, that don't even cover all types of players, and forces players into the game style of the more popular one. While the second one is just biased unfairness towards the support roles (which are already a minority, gotta reduce that so dd queue never pops!)
Edit: additionally, it is natural to include vet dungeons and their role issues when in a thread discussing role issues, but I guess that fixing role issues is not the aim for you, but only fixing the issues relevant to you.
Edit 2: silly restrictions on roles just in normal dungeons will force newbies into vet when farming gear/whatever, harming vet queue. So it does affect it either way. (Remember the 10k dps dd in vLoM from my previous examples? He was there for the tablet, and because "no one queued for nLoM"). Don't need more fake dds and healers and tanks there tyvm.Edited by zvavi on August 8, 2021 7:26PM1 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A fee, a proving grounds, or a 50% taunt/heal check won't work to keep fake roles in check.
With a fee, players would simply stay the fake role. A proving ground will only hurt legit players, and players would simply complete them to be done with them, so they can queue as anything again. And a 50% taunt/heal check won't work, as sometimes some roles perform multiple of those. Like my tank using an off-heal, so the healer can go DPS. Or you get some inexperienced player who keeps spamming taunt as a DPS.
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
PS: I normally only tank veteran dungeons.Edited by Sarannah on August 8, 2021 7:07PM0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
The issue with that is not build diversity, but
1. People will end up wiping cause you can't change a skill to something beneficial in specific bosses (crushing shock in vSG 1st boss for example).
2. You will not be able to be more tanky if needed.
3. You will not be able to slot more group heals if needed.
4. You will not be able to go more damage if needed.
5. You will not be able to queue while doing a different activity cause you will lack the correct skills (PvP, overland, whatever).
6. You can't fix your skills/gear in case you f***ed up and forgot something.
7. You can't change sets if you end up giving the same buff as another group member.Edited by zvavi on August 8, 2021 7:18PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭A fee, a proving grounds, or a 50% taunt/heal check won't work to keep fake roles in check.
With a fee, players would simply stay the fake role. A proving ground will only hurt legit players, and players would simply complete them to be done with them, so they can queue as anything again. And a 50% taunt/heal check won't work, as sometimes some roles perform multiple of those. Like my tank using an off-heal, so the healer can go DPS. Or you get some inexperienced player who keeps spamming taunt as a DPS.
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
PS: I normally only tank veteran dungeons.
The simple test like doing a taunt once in a while on a few bosses doesn't seem like that hard of a test to pass. And a healer healing just one other person during a couple boss fights is as low a bar as I can think of. If the tank/healer can't pass these they are 100% fake.
I like your idea of not allowing people to start boss fights until the team is there. I also like not being able to skip bosses. It is very disturbing when queueing for a specific pledge dungeon which requires killing 2-3 bosses and having people rush past them to final boss and make you have to do it all over again. ZOS should require at least to do the same bosses for pledge to be done for daily random too. And/or make those bosses unskippable with a door or something.
I like these ideas because they don't just address fake tank/healer but all speedrunners. I only do solo random normal as tank or healer, as a healer I notice fake tanks quite a while ago but only noticed the fake healers get really bad after the 'set stickbook' and 10 transmute reward, then it got really bad and now it seem you get a fake tank or healer and a speedrunner dd also.
Locking the skills/gear seems too limiting to me and doesn't guarantee people will do the role. BTW in the past and always I think the normal dungeons especially level 1 were used as a 'training' area. Zos already fixed this somewhat by having you only access certain dungeons as you level up. In fact, one secret is to group up with a below level 50 person then do random so you are guaranteed an easy one.
But maybe an optional tutorial dungeon that tests each role and teaches the basics wouldn't be bad. And specifically one that teach people how to do light attack animation cancelling would be great.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
You're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the green tanks who stagger in and don't realize they need a taunt, and the guys running in with 18k health, no taunt, and no intent to soak damage or manage the encounters.
That said, this be partially solved with a tooltip describing the role of a tank or healer when you select them.
It is amazing to me how all these threads are specifically talking about SOLO NORMAL RANDOM dungeon finder and the problem of fake tank/healers that has become insane, NOT AT ALL ABOUT VET OR PREMADE. Yet the same people who this would NOT affect at all because they say they only do PREMADE OR VET jump in to attack any ideas (WHICH HAS NO AFFECT ON THEM).
As I stated many times one solution would be
1. 1 normal queue with roles (current system)
2. 1 speedrunner queue with no roles (which would reduce the amount of DDs in the normal queue also and satisfy speedrunners at the same time)
But if ZOS doesn't like the idea of speedrunners and doesn't want to reward that behavior then as I said they could have a 'role based test' like
1. tank must taunt main bosses X% of time throughout dungeon
2. healer must be actually healing others
If these fakers aren't doing the bare minimum at the end they get no rewards. Very, very simple. Faking would be eliminated overnight if they didn't get 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
BTW the problem with kicking the speedrunners now (because I have tried it many times) is that you have to have the other 2 people agree and for some reason they don't want to do it. Also the problem with reporting people to get bans is that the toxic players would be reporting people who didn't do anything wrong to retaliate.
BTW I am be facetious about taking rewards away from low DPS in Vet, that was a joke because if you use dungeon finder for Vet dungeons you never know what you will get. If you go into Vet dungeons, you should at least have 1 DD and 1 tank that know what they are doing, if not a whole premade team. And as stated before if NORMAL wasn't fully of speedrunners people might be a lot better in the Vet queue.
If the solutions didnt impact vet and premades, nobody would truly care.
Penalizing healers by witholding rewards would not be good. Many groups run without a healer, at all. Like it or not, for much of the content, many don't deem them necessary. And when they are there, buffing is a large part of what they do. So your solution would penalize my theoretical group who runs self heals or are less dependent on raw healing numbers simply because we selected a random dungeon. If that didnt extend to vet, I wouldn't personally care, but aside from levels/CP, ZOS doesnt have a different set of rules for each level of difficulty and doesnt differentiate between premades and PUGs. Unless they redesign the DF, I would expect any change to be bolted onto the existing system.
Having 2 queues would likely solve a lot of the issues though. Since this is mostly, or nearly entirely, about the transmutes and XP from the random, and the random normal is the most efficient way to get them, allowing those players to group with themselves could effectively remove them from groups that would rather play with a traditional composition.
I agree and prefer the first idea but as I said ZOS might not want to reward/encourage speedrunners. The second idea IMO would require the simplest of tests like healing (INCLUDING OVERHEAL) 1 person in a few boss fights, only someone who has no group heal could fail that.
BTW as someone else stated they could make it so you couldn't start boss fight without whole team, which would make is so the tank and healer would be there to do the job. Another easier thing they could try is making the BG reward the same 10 transmute or change the daily random dungeon to the BG one which I think is 4-10 transmute geode. Maybe add a transmute geode to other stuff like 1-2 for killing world boss/IC boss, like the one you get for doing a pledge (which is actually harder than a random so why is it worse reward).0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭As ever, there's a fundamental difference between normals, Vets and DLC. You might need people specc'ed for proper tanking in the latter, but you turn up to a basegame RND specced as a tank you're just deadweight. You need a taunt, breach and maybe chain - but really, some damage. Because most of those groups are either cp1200 people who want to speed run it, or lowbies who struggle to put 10k dps out between them. Bringing 40k health, 33k resists and 2k dps to the party really isn't helping. When I take my actual tank in, I switch him to medium armor and put a 2 hander on his backbar otherwise I feel I'm contributing bugger all...1
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moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭Generally your first idea just splits queue into 2 queues, that don't even cover all types of players, and forces players into the game style of the more popular one.
You either want 1) playing your role and depend on the team for other roles, or 2) playing self sustaining DD with 3 others of the same role
What other types of players could there be?0 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.
Yep. That is what I always say on those threads.
People always throw around a million creative ideas but most are full of holes.
The only solution to this is to make it punishable. Make it reportable. And make repeated offenders get a punishment that is harsh.
My idea would be increasingly long bans from using Group Finder. Just like social ban. You get reported X times for fake tanking? Can't use group finder for 24 hours. Get caught again? Now it is 3 days. Still doing it? Two weeks without being able to queue.
If fake tankers faced the risk of being unable to queue for random XP/Transmute for 2, 5, 14 days, fake tanking would look like much worse option than just waiting a few minutes in queue.
The main problem with that as well, is that zos never gave a minimum requirement to each role. As long as they are not defined, they cannot be a reportable offence.
Of course it can. If you hover over the descriptions of the roles you can see. The taunt skills even have the tank symbol.
But that is irrelevant regardless. It doesn't need to be a complex system.
Like everything else that can be reported in game, they just need a threshold that, if you pass, you get investigated.
Fake tankers fake tank all the time. If one person is getting reported 10+ times for the same thing by multiple players / groups, it is more than enough.
And obviously someone will say that the system can be abused. Well, ANYTHING can be abused and this is the fix an abuse to a system that is happening right now, and it is widespread.
If we have that mentality, no problem ever in the world would ever be solvable because most of times, no solution is perfect.
We just need a "good enough" solution and I think the closest with have in ESO is this reporting system with increasing bans for using the system that is being abused, Group Finder.Edited by Calm_Fury on August 9, 2021 2:02PM1 -
Waseem✭✭✭✭✭
✭And then, you'll find out that you are queing 2 hours to find a group for fungal grotto
There will never be a solution for this
25% of players must be tanks
25% of players must be healers
50% of players must be damage dealers
Do you really think these percentages are a reflection of current ESO players queing for dungeons? lolno
You are asking zenimax to create real tanks and real healers to join your group finder que, which is a dream
good luck in sorting this out
If I was a forum moderator i'll close group finder complaints on the spot saying:
"Zenimax can't create tanks and healers for your group finder team to meet up the demand"0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Those cases only describe absolute min-maxing. Which is not needed in any case, if players are well suited for their role.
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
The issue with that is not build diversity, but
1. People will end up wiping cause you can't change a skill to something beneficial in specific bosses (crushing shock in vSG 1st boss for example).
2. You will not be able to be more tanky if needed.
3. You will not be able to slot more group heals if needed.
4. You will not be able to go more damage if needed.
5. You will not be able to queue while doing a different activity cause you will lack the correct skills (PvP, overland, whatever).
6. You can't fix your skills/gear in case you f***ed up and forgot something.
7. You can't change sets if you end up giving the same buff as another group member.
That's nonsense. ZOS does not need to do anything on the forums, they only need to place in-game restrictions on the roles themselves. If players choose a role that has long queue's, that is on the players. All those fake tanks, could play real tanks, or wait in queue like their role is supposed to. But those players want it all, and they want it now... regardless of if they are wasting other player's their time. They choose to abuse the system.And then, you'll find out that you are queing 2 hours to find a group for fungal grotto
There will never be a solution for this
25% of players must be tanks
25% of players must be healers
50% of players must be damage dealers
Do you really think these percentages are a reflection of current ESO players queing for dungeons? lolno
You are asking zenimax to create real tanks and real healers to join your group finder que, which is a dream
good luck in sorting this out
If I was a forum moderator i'll close group finder complaints on the spot saying:
"Zenimax can't create tanks and healers for your group finder team to meet up the demand"
So please stop trying to refocus the discussion so it goes away, and so fake roles can keep abusing the current system. They are cheating, and force their abuse on other players while doing so. This has to stop!
Personally I feel all the experience and bonusses earned by fake roles, is something they were never supposed to earn!
PS: All of this is besides the harmful effect fake roles have on the overall longterm health of the game.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is amazing to me how all these threads are specifically talking about SOLO NORMAL RANDOM dungeon finder and the problem of fake tank/healers that has become insane, NOT AT ALL ABOUT VET OR PREMADE.
It's because, "what about newbie tanks," is this topic's, "won't somebody think of the children," argument; which does apply to normal more than vet.
Nobody's worried about premades going in as something they're not, the entire problem is the DPS who random into vet dungeons as the tank because they didn't want to wait.Edited by starkerealm on August 9, 2021 4:34PM2 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip] Again I've had more problems with fake DPS than I've ever had with fake tanks. If you are a DD in a normal base game dungeon and can't get through it with three other people in the group then you are the problem. I'm sure I'll get a bunch of posts calling me "elitist" or whatever but if you make the argument:
"People who don't perform their roles are bad and inconvenience other people (ergo fake tanks are bad because they don't perform their rolls and inconvenience other people)"
You cannot in the same breath claim:
"It's ok if I do 5k dps the other members of the group should be patient because at least I'm trying."
You're still not performing the role you signed up for and are inconveniencing the rest of your group.
It's ok if you are new. Noone is going to get mad at you for doing low dps if you've just started playing (and if they do they're jerks). Most people are happy to help new players (myself included) but when you start complaining about what other people in the dungeon are doing without being able to pull your weight that patience goes out the window for most people.
Yes everyone hates the toxic speedrunners, I get them maybe 1/50 times I do a dungeon (if that). But stop trying to make the system more inconvenient and cumbersome for everyone, ZOS has made enough of those changes in the past year already.spartaxoxo wrote: »I didn't even realize there was fake dps until I started queing as a real tank. And it was literally impossible to complete dungeons because these fake dps were built tanky and doing like 5k damage.
You can still complete dungeons with 5k dps in total.
Can you? Sure. Is it pleasant for anyone involved? No. Especially for the tank who get's yelled at for any minor mistake, while the dps are hitting like a wet noodle the whole time.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 9, 2021 6:13PM0 -
SickleCider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't think this will have the intended result, but also speaking from the standpoint of my self-interest, I don't like this. My main is a DD but I can absolutely change a little gear and a few skills and hold taunt on bosses, interrupt, perform mechanics etc. Sometimes I choose to queue as a tank, both to avoid the long, long, loooong queue, and also because it's just fun sometimes. If I'm performing the role, why should I be penalized?✨🐦✨ Blackfeather Court Commission ✨🐦✨1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
Those cases only describe absolute min-maxing. Which is not needed in any case, if players are well suited for their role.
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
The issue with that is not build diversity, but
1. People will end up wiping cause you can't change a skill to something beneficial in specific bosses (crushing shock in vSG 1st boss for example).
2. You will not be able to be more tanky if needed.
3. You will not be able to slot more group heals if needed.
4. You will not be able to go more damage if needed.
5. You will not be able to queue while doing a different activity cause you will lack the correct skills (PvP, overland, whatever).
6. You can't fix your skills/gear in case you f***ed up and forgot something.
7. You can't change sets if you end up giving the same buff as another group member.
That's nonsense. ZOS does not need to do anything on the forums, they only need to place in-game restrictions on the roles themselves. If players choose a role that has long queue's, that is on the players. All those fake tanks, could play real tanks, or wait in queue like their role is supposed to. But those players want it all, and they want it now... regardless of if they are wasting other player's their time. They choose to abuse the system.And then, you'll find out that you are queing 2 hours to find a group for fungal grotto
There will never be a solution for this
25% of players must be tanks
25% of players must be healers
50% of players must be damage dealers
Do you really think these percentages are a reflection of current ESO players queing for dungeons? lolno
You are asking zenimax to create real tanks and real healers to join your group finder que, which is a dream
good luck in sorting this out
If I was a forum moderator i'll close group finder complaints on the spot saying:
"Zenimax can't create tanks and healers for your group finder team to meet up the demand"
So please stop trying to refocus the discussion so it goes away, and so fake roles can keep abusing the current system. They are cheating, and force their abuse on other players while doing so. This has to stop!
Personally I feel all the experience and bonusses earned by fake roles, is something they were never supposed to earn!
PS: All of this is besides the harmful effect fake roles have on the overall longterm health of the game.
It's hilarious how people who are ruining DF by Qing as fake roles and just speedrunning, have the audacity to act like they are doing a public service by filling a role that doesn't have enough people or providing DPS as a tank/healer. I agree with you the best way to stop this is NOT GIVE REWARDS. Normal random is a TRAINING area where people are supposed to learn their proper roles, yes it is EASY, because it is FOR TRAINING, not speedrunning. They should add the separate speedrunner Q with a lesser prize.
Funny thing is this is almost the same issue with battlegrounds. The same type of people are ruining the daily rewards for their team by treating every match as deathmatch. Getting 20 kills on people only doing objectives while not getting any points for the team score and losing is forcing the other 3 people to have to do the BG all over again. It's the same entitlement mentality, I don't want to play the game as it is intended so I'll just ruin it for others.2 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭Funny thing is this is almost the same issue with battlegrounds. The same type of people are ruining the daily rewards for their team by treating every match as deathmatch. Getting 20 kills on people only doing objectives while not getting any points for the team score and losing is forcing the other 3 people to have to do the BG all over again. It's the same entitlement mentality, I don't want to play the game as it is intended so I'll just ruin it for others.
eh, aren't they also helping by removing other teams' players? It can't be that easy without someone doing all the killings
I'm new to BG and have serious troubles following the objective. At one deathmatch (which I realized after the game) I kept wondering how to occupy the bases and avoided enemy groups while laughing at my groupmates who charged into them alone heroically.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Funny thing is this is almost the same issue with battlegrounds. The same type of people are ruining the daily rewards for their team by treating every match as deathmatch. Getting 20 kills on people only doing objectives while not getting any points for the team score and losing is forcing the other 3 people to have to do the BG all over again. It's the same entitlement mentality, I don't want to play the game as it is intended so I'll just ruin it for others.
eh, aren't they also helping by removing other teams' players? It can't be that easy without someone doing all the killings
I'm new to BG and have serious troubles following the objective. At one deathmatch (which I realized after the game) I kept wondering how to occupy the bases and avoided enemy groups while laughing at my groupmates who charged into them alone heroically.
Not exactly, in relic game for instance killing enemies fast makes it actually harder to capture since enemy spawns so fast and they are right there, it is better to draw the enemy away from the base so teammate can grab the relic. If you want to kill people best place is to stay at your own relic and kill everyone who comes there, not run around map cheesing kills.
Also domination stay at flag to keep it for your team, and kill anyone who comes there. And for other one guard flag until it despawns while killing anyone who comes by. Then move to next one, or on both game you can take over the flags from other teams and KILL them.
And Chaosball should be super simple for killing just chase/kill dude with ball and protect team who pick up, not on other side of map sneaking to get cheesy kill. There are many ways to kill players AND help your team win match in BGs, no excuse not to do it. Funny thing is when it is a deathmatch these same dudes don't do very well, wonder why.1 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why can’t they just bring in a ranking system for roles? Tanks get points for prodding and poking bosses and debuffing mobs and adds, healers get points for group heals and whatnot, DDs get points for, you know, causing damage. You build up your rank in normal dungeons and need to be a minimum rank for veteran dungeons.
No matter what system you roll out whether it be a complex algorithm or simple choice that players make. Someone will find out how it works and then cheese the system. The devs can try, but that's why we 3nd up with an infinite number of balance changes every 3 months. And people still cheese pvp. So what makes you think they will come up with a group finder solution that players can't work around. Fake/lazy/incompetence/whatever s are going to exist no matter what you do outside of just removing the group finder mechanic from the game entirely.0 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why can’t they just bring in a ranking system for roles? Tanks get points for prodding and poking bosses and debuffing mobs and adds, healers get points for group heals and whatnot, DDs get points for, you know, causing damage. You build up your rank in normal dungeons and need to be a minimum rank for veteran dungeons.
This is one of the best suggestions yet, there is a huge opportunity here for the game to be more competitive in a positive way.
As a tank earning tanking points would be very exciting and a huge incentive to get good at my role.
Add in similar schemes for damage dealers and healers and it's a total win for us players.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Those cases only describe absolute min-maxing. Which is not needed in any case, if players are well suited for their role.
ZOS should simply set a minimum requirement for the roles, and not allow gear/skillswapping in dungeons. This is the only way, even though it hurts builddiversity somewhat. But overall it would be better for the game. Add to that being unable to start bosses with less than three people, and not being able to skip bosses. And most dungeon issues would be fixed. (maybe add solo training dungeons as well, for each role)
The issue with that is not build diversity, but
1. People will end up wiping cause you can't change a skill to something beneficial in specific bosses (crushing shock in vSG 1st boss for example).
2. You will not be able to be more tanky if needed.
3. You will not be able to slot more group heals if needed.
4. You will not be able to go more damage if needed.
5. You will not be able to queue while doing a different activity cause you will lack the correct skills (PvP, overland, whatever).
6. You can't fix your skills/gear in case you f***ed up and forgot something.
7. You can't change sets if you end up giving the same buff as another group member.
i see you haven't pugged dlc a lot. sometimes, to pass the content, you need to do everything you can. for that. vSG is literally impossible on hm without a consistent interrupt. here, a case which is needed.Edited by zvavi on August 12, 2021 12:48AM0 -
ZOS_GregoryVmodGreetings all!
After removing a handful of comments, we would like to remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community Guidelines. Flaming and Baiting are both violations of the rules and are stated as follows:- Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
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-Greg-The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Generally your first idea just splits queue into 2 queues, that don't even cover all types of players, and forces players into the game style of the more popular one.
You either want 1) playing your role and depend on the team for other roles, or 2) playing self sustaining DD with 3 others of the same role
What other types of players could there be?
1. Dd =/= no role. [snip] specified "no role" on few occasions.
2. Does depending on others roles mean that those people actually preform those roles? Because i want to play a tank. And if my damage is above 30% of group damage, with 3 support sets and support skills, I am not hitting any of the 2 queues you just described, because the clear is not dependent on the other roles, and I am not a dd.
When I queue on my tank, I want to tank.
[Edit for Naming and Shaming.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on August 12, 2021 3:23AM0 -
Nogawd✭✭✭✭✭It's hilarious how people who are ruining DF by Qing as fake roles and just speedrunning
Ruining? By completing it faster? In normals, which we know this is mostly about, who cares? So what?
These DD's crack me up. It's kind they get into a dungeon and demand their protection from the tank and healer. They freak if they get a single add on them. You see them often back up towards the front of the dungeon in fear.
Maybe they want to stop and look at the individual loot to not take up their precious bag space.
Maybe they forgot to charge their weapons and eat food before entering the dungeon.
Maybe they want to test through every line of dialogue for a quest they already did 20 times.
Plenty of other real things to worry about in this game and this is what some of these people are complaining about?
In normals tanks and healers are IRRELEVANT.
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