Why don't PVE magcro use lightning staff front bar?

hcbigdogdoghc · August 2021

Most necro skills are aoe, the hardest hitting skills for necros are aoe.

So why not use a lightning staff front bar(not backbar)? Shouldn't it do better than an inferno staff front bar on paper?

Jameson18 · August 2021

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

hcbigdogdoghc · August 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

lolo_01b16_ESO · August 2021

In my experience a necro will do ~55% of his damage to the boss as aoe damage. So a lightning staff would be better than an inferno staff if you just look at the staff passives and ignore everything else.
But if you put everything into your calculation, the damage you loose because your light attacks are no longer buffed by engulfing flames and encratis is bigger than the damage you gain from the staff passive.

When you use dual wield, you also (obviously) also don't get the fire damage buff on your light attacks, but dual wield light attacks by default do noticably more damage than light attacks with ranged weapons. Combined with the other benefits of dual wield, this results in slightly higher dps than inferno staves in fights where you can stand in melee range.

hcbigdogdoghc · August 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

I don't really get it, using an inferno staff will only buff my light attack damage, entropy, and scalding runes. While a lightning staff buffs pretty much everything else.

And fyi my blastbones/inferno wall/other flame dmg still get buffed by engulfing and encratis even if I use a lightning staff front bar. So the only things I'm missing out not using a lightning staff are just extra 8% entropy and scalding rune, + that extra 15% front bar only inferno LA (still using inferno backbar mind you)

How can a inferno staff front bar do better dps? Is that encratis + engulfing + tri focus 23% boost to inferno LA alone better than the +8% on all necro aoe skills?

FrancisCrawford · August 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

I don't really get it, using an inferno staff will only buff my light attack damage, entropy, and scalding runes. While a lightning staff buffs pretty much everything else.

And fyi my blastbones/inferno wall/other flame dmg still get buffed by engulfing and encratis even if I use a lightning staff front bar. So the only things I'm missing out not using a lightning staff are just extra 8% entropy and scalding rune, + that extra 15% front bar only inferno LA (still using inferno backbar mind you)

How can a inferno staff front bar do better dps? Is that encratis + engulfing + tri focus 23% boost to inferno LA alone better than the +8% on all necro aoe skills?

No true spammable in your rotation at all?

Amottica · August 2021

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

I don't really get it, using an inferno staff will only buff my light attack damage, entropy, and scalding runes. While a lightning staff buffs pretty much everything else.

And fyi my blastbones/inferno wall/other flame dmg still get buffed by engulfing and encratis even if I use a lightning staff front bar. So the only things I'm missing out not using a lightning staff are just extra 8% entropy and scalding rune, + that extra 15% front bar only inferno LA (still using inferno backbar mind you)

How can a inferno staff front bar do better dps? Is that encratis + engulfing + tri focus 23% boost to inferno LA alone better than the +8% on all necro aoe skills?

No true spammable in your rotation at all?

This is a good question. More to the point, what single target skills are you using?

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

I don't really get it, using an inferno staff will only buff my light attack damage, entropy, and scalding runes. While a lightning staff buffs pretty much everything else.

And fyi my blastbones/inferno wall/other flame dmg still get buffed by engulfing and encratis even if I use a lightning staff front bar. So the only things I'm missing out not using a lightning staff are just extra 8% entropy and scalding rune, + that extra 15% front bar only inferno LA (still using inferno backbar mind you)

How can a inferno staff front bar do better dps? Is that encratis + engulfing + tri focus 23% boost to inferno LA alone better than the +8% on all necro aoe skills?

Your two biggest sources of damage are your blastbones and your light attacks which all combined will be in excess of 40% of your overall damage output. So what I suggest you do is experiment and see how hard your blastbones hits with a lightning staff versus a flame staff of equal level and quality with the same trait from the same set. Test out your light attacks as well and keeping in mind you will be doing 3x the amount of light attacks over the course of a fight.

My blastbones crits for between 75-85K depending how far along I am into the fight or parse. I can’t recall what my LA are doing because I’ve been running daggers for a while now.

For what it’s worth nobody is saying lightning isn’t a bad option for front bar, but when it comes to damage output it certainly is not the best option. And next patch flame sataff gets even more of a boost, enough so that I give up on these daggers and live to fight more often!

hcbigdogdoghc · August 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

I mean some people are using daggers front bar right now, meaning that inferno front bar is worth giving up on right?

Besides, pretty sure blastbones, an aoe skill, hits about the same or even harder than light attacks in a parse. I haven't even added the rest of necro's aoe tool kit yet.....

The difference from flame staff to daggers is minor. 1-2K at most. When we use daggers it will be a flame enchant on main hand and poison on off hand with your beserker enchant on the backbar. The extra enchant and critical chance is what makes the difference.

Now as to the question of flame vs lighting staves. The single target damage of flame staves will come out way ahead not only because of the passives from the destro staff skill line but also because flame damage will be boosted significantly in most groups by 10% from a DK running engulfing flames whether that’s a tank or dps. If someone in your group is running Encrantis it will boost it by another 5%.

That’s why flame staves are on top from a destro staff perspective. Even on sorc which has the extra boost to lightning damage the flame staff is superior. Now if you want to look at solo content you can give that lightning staff a look for a variety of other reasons, better ideas of damage with each damage tick and the ability to stay locked on target with your heavy while moving. Flame heavies can and do miss quite often in content.

But for raw consistent damage the flame staff is still the best.

I don't really get it, using an inferno staff will only buff my light attack damage, entropy, and scalding runes. While a lightning staff buffs pretty much everything else.

And fyi my blastbones/inferno wall/other flame dmg still get buffed by engulfing and encratis even if I use a lightning staff front bar. So the only things I'm missing out not using a lightning staff are just extra 8% entropy and scalding rune, + that extra 15% front bar only inferno LA (still using inferno backbar mind you)

How can a inferno staff front bar do better dps? Is that encratis + engulfing + tri focus 23% boost to inferno LA alone better than the +8% on all necro aoe skills?

Your two biggest sources of damage are your blastbones and your light attacks which all combined will be in excess of 40% of your overall damage output. So what I suggest you do is experiment and see how hard your blastbones hits with a lightning staff versus a flame staff of equal level and quality with the same trait from the same set. Test out your light attacks as well and keeping in mind you will be doing 3x the amount of light attacks over the course of a fight.

My blastbones crits for between 75-85K depending how far along I am into the fight or parse. I can’t recall what my LA are doing because I’ve been running daggers for a while now.

For what it’s worth nobody is saying lightning isn’t a bad option for front bar, but when it comes to damage output it certainly is not the best option. And next patch flame sataff gets even more of a boost, enough so that I give up on these daggers and live to fight more often!

Sounds like bad design.....when every mag dps including sorcs and wardens have to go double inferno

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

Because Lightning Staff is now the weakest choice for damage - even behind Frost Staff.

Join the movement to end this dark era of Flame Staff supremacy!

hcbigdogdoghc · August 2021

Regardless, sounds like inferno'a only better when there engulfing and encratis foe some reason.

I think I'm just gonna go with a lightning front bar, since 90% of the time engulfing + encearis don't happens

Vevvev · August 2021

Well for raw DPS we also have to look at Flame Wall of Elements dealing 20% more damage to burning targets in the wall, which actually ends up outDPSing the Lighting Wall of Elements that only gets the added benefit of setting targets off balance. Off Balance improves the damage and resource return of a heavy attack against the target so in a proper rotation it's not exactly a good idea unless you're like a magDK with Flame Lash, but at that point the lightning staff is a back bar weapon as your front bar is flame to buff the Flame Lash.

Now, could you go flame staff back bar with a lightning staff front bar to boost the damage of the flame wall when you swap to it? Yes, you could. Not sure what your performance would be though, and I personally cannot reasonably use an all AoE build since I know I'm going to be punching a single target eventually. AoE abilities on average don't do a lot of damage to a single target.

DarcyMardin · August 2021

I prefer the lightning staff myself, but I don’t care about meta builds.

ESO_Nightingale · August 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Because Lightning Staff is now the weakest choice for damage - even behind Frost Staff.

Join the movement to end this dark era of Flame Staff supremacy!

I hope zenimax actually balances them. Make the wall of elements variants all similar dps. Not just have flame on top, make all versions of impulse/elemental ring offer a decent execute instead of just the flame staff offering it, change the elemental effect of icy rage to something that increases dps, increase the ST damage of shock clench to the standard etc. And finally, change encratis and engulfing to no longer effect the group.

adriant1978 · August 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

I think it's got to do with light attack damage. With it being such a high percentage of your dps composition, and a trial group typically taking advantage of increased fire damage, burning status etc., maybe?

The solution is clear: nerf light attacks.

SaintSubwayy · August 2021

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Because Lightning Staff is now the weakest choice for damage - even behind Frost Staff.

Join the movement to end this dark era of Flame Staff supremacy!

I hope zenimax actually balances them. Make the wall of elements variants all similar dps. Not just have flame on top, make all versions of impulse/elemental ring offer a decent execute instead of just the flame staff offering it, change the elemental effect of icy rage to something that increases dps, increase the ST damage of shock clench to the standard etc. And finally, change encratis and engulfing to no longer effect the group.

changing encratis and engulfing will have 0 effect except being a dps nerf across the board.

Dk's will still run engulfing for Whip stacks and to boost their own dmg

Encratis will become a useless set like 90% of all sets in the game in terms of PVE viability

so jeah no tyvm

WrathOfInnos · August 2021

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Because Lightning Staff is now the weakest choice for damage - even behind Frost Staff.

Join the movement to end this dark era of Flame Staff supremacy!

I hope zenimax actually balances them. Make the wall of elements variants all similar dps. Not just have flame on top, make all versions of impulse/elemental ring offer a decent execute instead of just the flame staff offering it, change the elemental effect of icy rage to something that increases dps, increase the ST damage of shock clench to the standard etc. And finally, change encratis and engulfing to no longer effect the group.

changing encratis and engulfing will have 0 effect except being a dps nerf across the board.

Dk's will still run engulfing for Whip stacks and to boost their own dmg

Encratis will become a useless set like 90% of all sets in the game in terms of PVE viability

so jeah no tyvm

I also don’t want Encratis or Engulfing changed. Both are great ideas that serve a valuable role in group content. These should be the model for the next Shock and Frost sets/skill reworks. We need something like Morag Tong set for a group wide % increase to Shock/Frost damage. I don’t understand why Fire, Poison and Disease have been the only elements with this privilege for so long.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2021

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Regardless, sounds like inferno'a only better when there engulfing and encratis foe some reason.

I think I'm just gonna go with a lightning front bar, since 90% of the time engulfing + encearis don't happens

You seem to really wan to run lighting, which is perfectly fine. The answers you get for the most part are in the context of a properly organized trial group. In that setting, both of those things DO happen, otherwise, well, its not a properly organized trial group.

If you arent in that setting, run whatever makes you happy. If you arent pulling 90k+ or so on a dummy, you likely wont notice the difference anyways. That said, if you are looking to min/max your single target damage, fire is the answer.

cynicalbutterfly · August 2021

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I prefer the lightning staff myself, but I don’t care about meta builds.

Ditto. I run two lightning staves. Flame is better for overall damage but I have trouble with heavy attacks using one.

Oznog666 · August 2021

I'm also running a lightning and an inferno staff on my warden and on my necromancer. Inferno for unstable wall and lightning on the front bar because of the way better heavy attack. Without the lightning staff I would run out of magicka very fast.