Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

ZOS could end fake roles overnight, if they just tested a couple things
1. the tank has taunt on bosses over 50%
2. the healing heals the group a few times during dungeon

If either of these 2 things do not happen, then at the end of the dungeon the FAKE simple does not receive any rewards. And ZOS can add more rules if people learn how to game the system again. After not receiving any rewards the fakes will have to either do the role correctly or stop queueing in fake role.

BTW people that bring up fake DPS are actually just the fake tank/healers that everyone complains about who come on the forums to defend bad behavior so I wouldn't necessarily agree to a DPS test like this, although I suppose if the tank and healer do more DPS than a DD on a vet dungeon final boss, it might make sense for them NOT to receive some rewards like helm/transmute/key etc.

That would discourage anyone from just jumping in vet as DD and get carried for helm/etc. Literally the simplest tests by ZOS could fix these problems and I think they know by how many times it is brought up over and over but they either don't care or have more important issues to deal with.

Wouldn’t work for my low level real tank, who can hardly ever get a taunt in ( much less do the skillpoint quest) because the high CP DDs are racing ahead killing everything just for their ten crystals. Similar problem for my real healers.

Fake roles were bad enough in random dungeons in the old days, but are * much* worse since the crystal reward entered the picture. How about giving crystal rewards to those of us who enjoy the story quests instead?

Yes you are right this is only to disincentivize fake tank/healers not DD speedrunners. Actually there's an even easier way to maybe resolve these issues, to break the random dungeon queue into 2 queues
1. role based like now
2. with no roles for speedrunners and above level 50 only

BTW they could make Vets better too by requiring someone to run the normal version of the dungeon 3-5 times before they can enter the Vet version.

How is it fixing getting fake dds exactly? And the addition is even worse, why would I need to go do dungeons on normal when I can do vDLC ones that are just more fun?

Fake DD is not a thing, why would a tank or healer queue as a DD which takes longer and they can't do the job. If you mean bad or inexperienced DDs, you can help them or kick them.

It's how Fake Tanks self-justify their own selfishness. "Oh, it's okay I'm a fake Tank, because the other two are "fake DPS." Or, "It's okay if I fake tank, because the DPS are so bad they don't deserve a tank."

Either way, same result.

starkerealm wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

ZOS could end fake roles overnight, if they just tested a couple things
1. the tank has taunt on bosses over 50%
2. the healing heals the group a few times during dungeon

If either of these 2 things do not happen, then at the end of the dungeon the FAKE simple does not receive any rewards. And ZOS can add more rules if people learn how to game the system again. After not receiving any rewards the fakes will have to either do the role correctly or stop queueing in fake role.

BTW people that bring up fake DPS are actually just the fake tank/healers that everyone complains about who come on the forums to defend bad behavior so I wouldn't necessarily agree to a DPS test like this, although I suppose if the tank and healer do more DPS than a DD on a vet dungeon final boss, it might make sense for them NOT to receive some rewards like helm/transmute/key etc.

That would discourage anyone from just jumping in vet as DD and get carried for helm/etc. Literally the simplest tests by ZOS could fix these problems and I think they know by how many times it is brought up over and over but they either don't care or have more important issues to deal with.

Wouldn’t work for my low level real tank, who can hardly ever get a taunt in ( much less do the skillpoint quest) because the high CP DDs are racing ahead killing everything just for their ten crystals. Similar problem for my real healers.

Fake roles were bad enough in random dungeons in the old days, but are * much* worse since the crystal reward entered the picture. How about giving crystal rewards to those of us who enjoy the story quests instead?

Yes you are right this is only to disincentivize fake tank/healers not DD speedrunners. Actually there's an even easier way to maybe resolve these issues, to break the random dungeon queue into 2 queues
1. role based like now
2. with no roles for speedrunners and above level 50 only

BTW they could make Vets better too by requiring someone to run the normal version of the dungeon 3-5 times before they can enter the Vet version.

How is it fixing getting fake dds exactly? And the addition is even worse, why would I need to go do dungeons on normal when I can do vDLC ones that are just more fun?

Fake DD is not a thing, why would a tank or healer queue as a DD which takes longer and they can't do the job. If you mean bad or inexperienced DDs, you can help them or kick them.

It's how Fake Tanks self-justify their own selfishness. "Oh, it's okay I'm a fake Tank, because the other two are "fake DPS." Or, "It's okay if I fake tank, because the DPS are so bad they don't deserve a tank."

Either way, same result.

I didn't even realize there was fake dps until I started queing as a real tank. And it was literally impossible to complete dungeons because these fake dps were built tanky and doing like 5k damage.

I personally suspect that a lot of people who claim they don't exist are bad dps who feel attacked tbh. Or people who don't understand the definition of fake does not require deception.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I didn't even realize there was fake dps until I started queing as a real tank. And it was literally impossible to complete dungeons because these fake dps were built tanky and doing like 5k damage.

You can still complete dungeons with 5k dps in total.


I did solo with like 3k dps, before I learned weaving and had to use ultimate once a minute for real damage.

I had to do that again yesterday because of some bug causing two players leaving and another offline, leaving me dealing with a boss alone... luckily I got my companion and 2 pets by my side, and a less tanky set.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I didn't even realize there was fake dps until I started queing as a real tank. And it was literally impossible to complete dungeons because these fake dps were built tanky and doing like 5k damage.

You can still complete dungeons with 5k dps in total.

Some of the dungeons. Many of them have hard dps requirements that you cannot beat at 5k dps.

Very few have hard DPS checks. Of those, the majority are remarkably low. Granted, they're usually around 10k. It's often easier with high DPS, but it's rarely mandatory.

Merforum wrote: »

ZOS could end fake roles overnight, if they just tested a couple things
1. the tank has taunt on bosses over 50%
2. the healing heals the group a few times during dungeon

If either of these 2 things do not happen, then at the end of the dungeon the FAKE simple does not receive any rewards. And ZOS can add more rules if people learn how to game the system again. After not receiving any rewards the fakes will have to either do the role correctly or stop queueing in fake role.

BTW people that bring up fake DPS are actually just the fake tank/healers that everyone complains about who come on the forums to defend bad behavior so I wouldn't necessarily agree to a DPS test like this, although I suppose if the tank and healer do more DPS than a DD on a vet dungeon final boss, it might make sense for them NOT to receive some rewards like helm/transmute/key etc.

That would discourage anyone from just jumping in vet as DD and get carried for helm/etc. Literally the simplest tests by ZOS could fix these problems and I think they know by how many times it is brought up over and over but they either don't care or have more important issues to deal with.

There is already a way to ensure you have the roles you want for a dungeon. It's called kicking people from the group that don't fulfill their role.

As a person that used to do nothing but exclusively tank I can say that we'll get kicked for any and every reason under the sun. Doing too much damage, not doing enough, healing, not healing, buffing the group, not buffing the group, CCing, not CCing - You name it, I've been kicked for it by some groups and rigorously thanked by others. Regardless of the build and playstyle I've used.

At the end of the day each and every person has their own preference and tolerance levels for what they want in a group. This is something that is just not possible to codify in a set of hard and fast rules built into the game. If you don't like the group you are with there are already two mechanics you can use to perfectly solve this problem and they work for literally everyone regardless of their preferences: Vote kick, or leave the group. That is literally the best possible system anyone could ever hope to put in place. Choice.

Galarthor wrote: »

In my experience, those fake queuers are usually the work horses of the groups and carry it.
Meanwhile you have plenty of "real" DPS that deal less damage then the companions. Those are the real fakes in the groups. Calling themselves damage dealers and hitting like a wet noodle.
... same is true for healers. But who cares since they have been made useless in almost all content anyway.

This. Now the garbage dd that won't even taunt is certain a problem, but many of the people that complain about DDs with taunts wouldn't even past the dungeon without them. I've seen it too many times to count. My success rate on normal dungeons is now 100% if groups don't disband just because I'm a dd with a taunt and not a real tank. And I can do some of the vet stuff too, no issues, again 100% success rate.

Why on earth you'd want me on my real tank with garbage dps, I don't know. But I can tell you, it's way worse to be in a group that kills all your playtime and then doesn't even pass the dungeon on my real tank than to get it done in a reasonable amount of time on my fake.

I don't even have a high threshold for what I consider real. Like 15k for base game and 20k for dlc, and still people can't even manage that and need help passing the basement level dps checks.

If you want reduce fake dd / tank / healer near 0 % just simply add of the two idea in the game.

The most punishing and aggresive one, boss dps cap

with this mechanics boss can take max like 3 % of is max hp per second (skill who have excecute damage piercing this mechanic if they are in execute %)

The second is simply add role spirit like the battle spirit in pvp who give buff and nerf.

Tank spirit: increase max health and armor by 5 k , you can survive to 1 shoot attacks if you health is <75 %, all defensive buff duration are increased by 40 % , reduce all damage done by 90 %, reduce all heal done on allies by 90 %.

DD spirit: increase weapon and spell power by 500, all offensive buff (force,prophecy,sauvagery,sorcery and brutality) duration are increase by 40 %, healing done/self heal and shield are reduced by 90 %.

Healer spirit: increase buff duration (mending , intellect, endurance, fortitude) by 40 % , all synergize who give back ressource give 50 % extra ressource, when you are under major mending 5 % of healing done to teamate are given back as ressource who are the highter (stam or mag), all your damage done are reduce by 90 % (except funnel health who are the exception to the rule since healing scale on one part of damage, and healing staff heavy attacks.)

with this system you are no longer have fake tank/healer since all of is damage gonna be nerfed into oblivion, that's gonna be do your role or kick.

great problem ask great solution , your idea is medium because a guy can make the tank dungeon and after go back into fake tank you not solve problem you winning time, my solution is simple and help dealing with all

Arkew wrote: »

great problem ask great solution , your idea is medium because a guy can make the tank dungeon and after go back into fake tank you not solve problem you winning time, my solution is simple and help dealing with all

The problem with your solution is that is dampen any survival skills and make the support roles even less interesting:
A DD is AFK or doing subtier damage? 500 spell/weapon damage won't improve someone's dps if their sole action is spamming light attacks/snipe for the whole dungeon
The healer is afk or is using only ground aoes in a fight where everyone's spread out? Welp, guess the DD will dies often (And i'm not even talking about the mechanics where the DD has to get a self heal like the spawn of Mephala for FGII, Blackheart for Blackheart Haven, Cradle of Shadows Hm)
The Tank is still learning and has difficulties to take the aggro, guess the healer will have to tank himself since he can't kill anything.

Your changes also nerf the alternatives playstyles: A support/healer tank with battalion defender, a DPS vampire using self-heals with blood frenzy and i'm sure there's more playstyles i don't even know that would be gutted by that system.
It would only streamline builds, punish those who are trying to bring the most to the team...

With it: The tank is helpless if the team cannot withstand the damage, the healer is relegated to a heal bot since using CC could and would stop the tank from chaining/doing his job and damage dealers would often meet themselves in a dead end where they're constantly dying due to a lack of healing and no way for them to use any self-healing to compensate.
Your system only works for premades, nowhere else... And premades are only a ridiculous small part of the player base

I already gave my idea.

With the system of a proving grounds, the fake tanks (those that have no experience whatsoever) can't go to the places above their level. And even if they switch gear back, they still have the skills that would be deemed necessary for the role as a tank/healer.

Unless we want to go with a system where, by entering those proving grounds (Aka the mini dungeon designed to test the knowledge of the game from the players), the skills are replaced by a set of common skills that cannot be changed until they leave it.
In that case, indeed they wouldn't have the skills necessary but that option is far-fetched.


And, just saying, the system of the proving grounds is there to sort off bad and good players, it cannot solve the fake tanks/healers that know the role on the tip of their fingers... But in that case, if they did unlock veterans/dlc dungeons and refuse to fulfill their roles, it could be the ground to enforce some sanctions onto those players with the indication they willingly worked and did efforts to get the healer role and yet are refusing to fulfill it despite they tagged for it.

I do understand the proving ground is only a part of the action to do. It could still serve to avoid the fake newb tanks if it's well done (By asking to use chains, to know when to roll-dodge or even simulate a few scenario were the tank as to free an ally from a CC) and same for the healers who would rather just slot a heal and forget everything else (I'd say in that scenario, the healer has no direct damage output but could increase the damage of the NPC by buffing/debuffing (A sort of incremental damage))

But for the fake tanks/healers that do know their roles but refuse to apply it, there's not a lot of options to apply...


One option could be to make the role of a tank more impactful in the dungeon:
- A static boss (In a sense the boss doesn't teleport around or doesn't have an pattern that makes him move away) gain an incremental debuff that increase the damage taken as long as he doesn't move (With the effect being removed once it moves/lose the taunt)
- Adds that had been chained or CC recently takes 10% more damage and can explode, inflicting a portion of their health on a extremely small range, making it more interesting to stack adds onto the tank.
- A ranged/mobile boss does less damage and take more damage over time as long as it is taunted and under the effect of a debuff from the tank.

That way, the tanking would make dungeons far more easier... And perhaps, if a tank managed to maximized the debuff from his role onto a boss, he could roll for an additional item?
But that system would require some fine tuning as some boss have an invulnerability phases or some phases that requires to be away from the boss.



For the healer, it's far more easier: As long as a damage dealer is above 50/60% of their max health and have a buff from the healer onto them, they gain an incremental buff to their damage and when they're below that threshold, the buff is quickly depleting?

starkerealm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem isn't that fake-tanks don't know how to perform their role. In some cases, you'll certainly encounter fake tanks who can do the job. They just don't want to. They just want to have a short queue, and don't care what impact they have on the game as a whole. They tell themselves that, "they're the hero, coming in to save the PUG," and they're, "too important," to sit in the slow queue.

Same thing with fake healers. They queue as fake healers because they're convinced that because Hodor doesn't need healers, no one does.

Fake tanks are filling a void created by too many dds. Cut down the amount of dds in queue, and higher their quality by proving grounds, and the relative amounts of tanks to dds will go up, and you will see less fake tanks.

Yeah, but no. The problem isn't that people don't know how to tank, it's that they don't want to. Right now, tanking is one of the more challenging roles. The only way you'd solve that is by making life easier on the tanks, encouraging more people to actually play the role.

The problem is, tanks are getting hamstrung left and right by PvP balance changes. It's been that way since Wroble left.

Now, we've had some improvement, particularly in the CP system. But... when you're going into a vet dungeon, as the tank, you're signing up for the hardest role. Same for trials. Why would you want to put yourself through that? The payoff is the short queue, but then you have all the DPS who just say, "oh, yeah, I'll take the short queue; bye suckers!"

This, now this is an vet dlc issue, not an problem below but in vet dlc the tank need to know the mechanics well to stay alive.
That you can block and that you need to dodge, who adds are dangerous and need handling and so on.
DD and healer has it much easier here in my experience. In standard vet you can pretty much just taunt and block.
And it depend on group, even nCoH2 is an nightmare with the group this Bosmer got.

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem here is, this is backwards.

The tank's job is to hold the boss still.

The DPS's best tools are focused on putting AoEs on the ground around them, to speed up the burn.

If you have a boss that the tank needs to pull around the room, it will cripple the DPS's ability to apply damage to them. That said, there are bosses where the tank has the option to clear mechanics by moving the boss around the arena.

Yup, that's why i advised a fine tuning because there's a lot of boss with peculiar mechanics that will make them move by themselves or that you have to pull from aoe: Cradle of shadows' last boss, Fang lair's last boss, Arx corinium last boss again... We can list a lot of boss that have a peculiar system of mechanics.

starkerealm wrote: »

This is redundant. A tank who's doing their job, can chain trash adds onto themselves, stacking them inside the DPS's ground AoEs, melting them.

So, basically, this should already be happening.

I should but outside of the clear damage increase that we see, the fake tanks have no incentive to do so. They only see their dps and, in a sort, making it so they can "increase" their dps with those bloated numbers make it more tempting to slot a CC/chain between boss.

starkerealm wrote: »

Again, this already happens. Tanks have a number of tools for debuffing bosses, and even methods for moving ranged bosses around the arena to put them into better positions for burn.

DPS rarely focus on debuffing the target, because, "it's not their job." Which is fine, until you have a DPS who isn't interested in debuffing the boss, who's taken' the Tank's slot, because they wanted a faster queue.

Well, that's an incentive. You want to make the work of a tank more rewarding and making them feel more interested by the role. And i'll be honest, my own experience as a tank is that in most of the dungeons, one character could be the tank and healer at the same time, leaving three dds.
Making it so the tank has a rewarding feeling of directly increasing the damage of the team besides just standing there and keeping count of the ongoing buffs/debuffs is better than nothing.
But there can be other incentive and what i offered is one possibility.

starkerealm wrote: »

If you want to make tanking easier, the answer is going to be more health and resistance scaling modifiers. Things like having a scaling discount on Silver Leash's cost based on your resists. Change abilities like Dark Deal or GDB to be more efficient in PvE (possible also kneecapping them in PvP via battle spirit tweaks.)

The problem isn't that the tanking is "difficult" but the learning curves to be a tank is atrocious. You can go from a mechanic that barely remove 5% of your life in normal and once you get in veteran, you get one-shot even with all the health in the world because some mechanics are scaling on your max health.
It also doesn't remove the fact that if a tank is in a bad group, you are helpless AND you are at one moment stuck in front of your screen, repeating the same pattern because it takes 15minutes to kill one boss because the dps are only using light attack.

Tanking can't be made easier in a broad sense, it can be made easier to learn by redoing the difficulties and abilities of some boss, it can be made easier to choose by giving options for the tank to influence the fight other than praying that the others members of the team know there's a backbar and throwing buffs at them, it can be made more convenient by giving more health and the buffs you proposed.
But all in all, tanking is a mixed bag of issues that were never addressed.

starkerealm wrote: »

So, this is already a thing, in a couple different forms. Combat Prayer exists. Sets like Spellpower Cure exist. There's a champion point star which grants resource recovery bonuses on overheal.

Fake healers don't care. They don't care about those buffs. They don't care about the DPS or the tank. They just want a fast queue.

The problem is not everyone has the SPC/Olorime/PA and others sets from the get go. And farming especially for them just to fill the healer role is just a chore.
My option is simply a complement: That's a crutch that helps new healers without the sets and it doesn't undermine the efforts done to get the set.

starkerealm wrote: »

The more I look at it, the more I think the solution for Fake Tanks/Fake Healers, is purely punitive. Make it a reportable offense, with the in-game moderators actually looking at the slotted skills and sets. Then if someone's abusing the queue, take away that player's ability to queue for support roles.

On that part, i do agree.
That's why i proposed those values on the healer/tank because a good tank can keep those values high that are, in return, kept somewhere in the logs of the game. Otherwise, the moderators have to check by themselves if the boss was mostly taunted by the tank in the group. Same for the healer that could just throw a heal whenever the dd are low but never bothering to buff them.

We're going from a complete inspection to just check the abilities of the character and the uptime of the buff associated to its role.
If a player has a dps set and the uptime of his role is low, the moderator can then punish the player.

And that part goes along the lines of the proving ground system so a new player can't log in, tag as a tank with no knowledge of the game, and be punished for his poor performances.