Just curious: why can't pvp and pve be kept as separate games? Why do nerfs aftect one or the other?

wishlist14 · August 2021

Forgive me if i haven't worded my question in a comprehensive way.

The skills required to be a good pvper are very different imo to the skills required to pve. You can do either without even trying but you wont get far.

Back to the actual question. Is it possible to have a copy of your character go into a pvp campaign and for it to be instanced in a way that yoir skills are different from pve skills? Im trying to think of a way that it could be done so pve nerfs or buffs dont affect pvp in any way...they would be totally different.

colossalvoids · August 2021

Zos always wanted it like that, keep it simple and transition between modes without having a different game/skills. But in reality it's still not even remotely like this so they're kinda backing off bit by bit from it, hope one day they'll shift completely.

ADarklore · August 2021

They originally stated that they wanted everything to be seamless, that all skills would remain exactly the same between PVE and PVP, so as not to confuse people. However, the reality is, they just didn't want to devote the time/money to separating them. After all, if they add proper tool tips to skills, then there wouldn't BE any confusion for players.

However, it does appear ZOS is finally taking... baby steps... into separation. Just like what they're doing with some Fighters Guild skills this next patch.

Michaelkeir · August 2021

As @ADarklore put it, it’s all about saving money. Splitting it into 2 different sets of skills (pve vs. pvp) would require 2 sets of teams which would require more money. ESO at this point is a money making machine and the less money they have to put in it means the more money they can keep.

Fennwitty · August 2021

Michaelkeir wrote: »

As @ADarklore put it, it’s all about saving money. Splitting it into 2 different sets of skills (pve vs. pvp) would require 2 sets of teams which would require more money. ESO at this point is a money making machine and the less money they have to put in it means the more money they can keep.

That might be part of the reasoning, but it's not true in practice.

How much time do they spend hearing about and (eventually) fixing glaring power differences between PvE and PvP? How do the longstanding unbalanced sets impact the game's public relations?

It took like 6 months or more to *start* addressing the always-trigger flat damage proc sets being overperformant in PvP and under in PvE. And I doubt it's quite solved.

They can spend a short time thinking about changes up front before they implement them -- or a long time figuring out how to clean up a giant mess months down the line.

DreamyLu · August 2021

Of course it's about money. It's a reality: there must be more money incoming than money used, to keep the balance positive. If not, the "business case" is a weak one and it's the end of it. It's not for ZOS only. It's the same for all.

For everything they want to do, they need to be sure that the invest of money will give an added value. If not, as good as the idea can be, it will not be implemented. It's logic. Nowadays, it's rare that a firm can afford a business case with a negative balance, unless it's on purpose with a specific objective at another level.

I suppose that they're continuously juggling with the ideas/changes they want to implement versus the available budget. It must be very frustrating for them. And at the top of it, there are all the customer complains... I know that well from a different industry. But the mechanics are the same.

Now to come back to OP post: yes, I like that idea of a PvP separated from PvE (like I know it from other MMOs). But as said by others before, the invest of efforts (meaning money) to make it happen is probably quite a big one and I'm not sure what would be the real benefit on ZOS side. It would give more comfort to the customer (we), yes, but on the other hand, it's not a type of change that would draw new players into the game or make existing players purchase something at the store.

BXR_Lonestar · August 2021

The answer is because separating them completely forces them to basically have TWO separate games instead of one. I get the desire to have the two modes completely separated and balanced separately, but with everything in the world, there would be pros-and-cons to a fully separated PVP mode, including the fact that it would be very difficult to transition between playing the two modes.

With that said though, I really DO wish in games like this, the devs would be honest and upfront about the PVP mode - i.e., they warn their player base that it is not the meat and potatoes of the game, that it will NEVER be truly "balanced" in the way players want it to be balanced (i.e., only player skill determines outcomes, or any given player has a chance to win an encounter against any other player or class). Instead, they should just tell the player base "PVP is a thing, its not the ONLY thing, and its not even the MAIN thing, so don't expect PVP to dictate balance across the board. Yes, there will occasionally be troll builds out there, they happen in every game, and we're not going to break the remaining 90% of the game to make troll builds an impossibility." Also something to the extent that "PVP isn't intended to be an ultra-competitive mode. Doesn't mean it can't still be a fun an different activity."

Statements to that effect would help set expectations so that players don't buy into the mode and take it so seriously. Honestly, its under those conditions that I find PVP to be the most fun anyways.

EF321 · August 2021

This would solve many issues. While initial resource investment into rebalancing every ability and set would be huge, in the long run it might be easier to tweak problematic sets/abilities on only one side, as opposed to revamping entire system in hopes that it will work on both sides (see recent set scaling changes).

I play one game that I am not going to name, but let's say there is a variety of game modes, it's supposed to be competitive mostly, but one mode is pure dumb fun. However, a few "classes" in that mode are way way too overpowered and a few are completely terrible and therefore utilized by trolls that like to grief their teams, so devs staight up disabled these, which is just a little fraction of what is available, but it makes mode way more healthier. Further, on what is left, there are few "morphs" that are too OP as well, but "classes" as a whole are fine, with exception of these particular "morphs". So these "morphs" are just disabled, so you can only go with the other one. I've been through all the iterations of this gamemode, and this approach to balance some things separately for this one game mode alone was amazing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2021

wishlist14 wrote: »

Forgive me if i haven't worded my question in a comprehensive way.

The skills required to be a good pvper are very different imo to the skills required to pve. You can do either without even trying but you wont get far.

Back to the actual question. Is it possible to have a copy of your character go into a pvp campaign and for it to be instanced in a way that yoir skills are different from pve skills? Im thinlinng of a way that it could be done so pve nerfs or buffs dont affect pvp in any way...they would be totally different.

I reject the first statement. The skillsets for PVE and PVP have a ton of overlap. Sure there are differences in build and strategy, but the game mechanics are the same. The notion that great PVEers cant PVP or vice versa is a fallacy. Best example I can give is that progressing VMA back in the day made me an infinitely better PVP player in the process, pretty much overnight. Sure your average PVEer will get wrecked in PVP, but your average PVEer is pretty terrible at this game. Bad is bad.

That brings me to the next point. They want mechanics and skills to be roughly the same in both environments. It means that your efforts of learning PVE mechanics either broadly or for a new class (where the vast majority of people start) are not in vain when you step into Cyro.

Of course, it does create balance issues. The other thing is that for better or worse, ZOS has all but abandoned PVP. Even if it made sense for them to do it (it doesnt), they arent going to spend the resources to double the task of balancing two separate games.

wishlist14 · August 2021

Our forums community never disppoint....your answers are very well thought out and make a lot of sense. Thank you all for your replies i am well satisfied that my question has been answered.

Wolfshead · August 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

They originally stated that they wanted everything to be seamless, that all skills would remain exactly the same between PVE and PVP, so as not to confuse people. However, the reality is, they just didn't want to devote the time/money to separating them. After all, if they add proper tool tips to skills, then there wouldn't BE any confusion for players.

However, it does appear ZOS is finally taking... baby steps... into separation. Just like what they're doing with some Fighters Guild skills this next patch.

That is honestly the true the problem is that you use PvE skills in PvP and PvP skills in PvE which mean if you nerf for one player group you auto nerf for other groups, what you talk about is basically you want 2 different skills tree let say you have 100 different skills for PvE and 100 different skills for PvP that mean you as the player would have over 200 skills to choose from and you don't think that is more confusing then what we have today and don't talk about how bigger skills tree we would have then now?

No problem is what wrote early you use PvE skills in PvP and PvP skills in PvE which mean if you nerf for one player group you auto nerf for other groups so there is your answer @wishlist14

James-Wayne · August 2021

So they can transition to PvEvP easier.

Minyassa · August 2021

ZOS wanted to be different, and they take pride in their horrible different thing the way the owner of the winner of the Ugliest Dog Contest does. They are the same way about their horrible guild trader system. "This may be awful but it's different from other people's stuff so we're going to keep saying it's better because it's unique." I shudder to think about the cooking skills of the person who came up with these ideas; I'd expect to see them putting Hershey's syrup and ketchup on rice pilaf.

Oliviander · August 2021

I think th concept of balancing things in a RPG is utterly wrong.
If you want even odds for every player there are other games for that.

On the contrary everything should be much more unbalanced.

Each set should have one extreme signature property and there would be so much to explore
using different builds in PvE and PvP.

No Hard Caps and no Nerfs

That would be really fun.

Narvuntien · August 2021

I haven't played any other MMOs but the very idea of having sets doing different things in PVE and PVP seems bizarre to me.

I mean having different stats in PVP compared to PVE isn't exactly sensible either but at least it is just moving numbers up and not fundamentally changing the way your character feels to play.

You want your abilities to do the same things in PVE and PVP so that you can just know what they are going to do.

rpa · August 2021

Wildstar had separate, seasonal PvP gear with PvP stats. That was easy to to acquire and only a short grind to max.

(Unfortunately the 3nd season never happened. Also their version of CP, the Primal Matrix was not disabled for PvP and made everyone tanky.)