Increase health in battlespirit rather than damage received?

relentless_turnip · July 2021

I am not married to this idea, but I think it would be healthier to just give us back the 5k health on battlespirit. 16% mitigation is mental and is a massive step back IMO. I think TTK is actually in a good place at the minute, but I understand not everyone feels that way.

The issue to me seems to be outliers, as in particular builds and not TTK as a whole. Increasing mitigation will make a lot of issues worse and I would prefer developers looked at the individual builds that are one shotting or hitting very hard. Notice I said builds and not skills as I don't think it is any singular skill, but the synergy with sets and other skills.

Failing that giving everyone a bit more health would be better than giving everyone so much mitigation that can't be penetrated. Health based heals would probably need to be reviewed though.

techyeshic · July 2021

Un-nerfing crit resist would help. A lot of spikes are from high crit and guarantees of it out of stealth.

relentless_turnip · July 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

Un-nerfing crit resist would help. A lot of spikes are from high crit and guarantees of it out of stealth.

I personally also think that crit resist is in a good place as you can still build for it. 2 piece critical riposte gives you a lot crit resistance for instance. I like that other traits are just as viable as well.

colossalvoids · July 2021

It's not that drastically different from their mitigation idea tbh, at least the problems are staying anyway. Players without skill and even gear will still die, balance passes will be still "no ETA" and ball groups will be running but with just more survivability in their kit.

Edit: I have no idea what zos can do at this point as they already messed too much and gone full circle back on lots of problems throughout years. We need to broke the circle somehow and not rotate same problems.

relentless_turnip · July 2021

colossalvoids wrote: »

It's not that drastically different from their mitigation idea tbh, at least the problems are staying anyway. Players without skill and even gear will still die, balance passes will be still "no ETA" and ball groups will be running but with just more survivability in their kit.

Edit: I have no idea what zos can do at this point as they already messed too much and gone full circle back on lots of problems throughout years. We need to broke the circle somehow and not rotate same problems.

I agree they are ignoring core issues and as a result changing mitigation will make some issues much worse.
Increasing health is slightly better because it is finite. Mitigation helps you even on low health. The mitigation they're offering can't be penetrated either. I don't want them to change things in this fashion, but if they're going to better health than percentage mitigation IMO.

colossalvoids · July 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

It's not that drastically different from their mitigation idea tbh, at least the problems are staying anyway. Players without skill and even gear will still die, balance passes will be still "no ETA" and ball groups will be running but with just more survivability in their kit.

Edit: I have no idea what zos can do at this point as they already messed too much and gone full circle back on lots of problems throughout years. We need to broke the circle somehow and not rotate same problems.

I agree they are ignoring core issues and as a result changing mitigation will make some issues much worse.
Increasing health is slightly better because it is finite. Mitigation helps you even on low health. The mitigation they're offering can't be penetrated either. I don't want them to change things in this fashion, but if they're going to better health than percentage mitigation IMO.

Yeah I do not disagree with you, unique mitigation buffs never done anything good for balancing out things but zos better work out some more strategies while people are still here and trying to play.

waterfairy · July 2021

less % values and more base stats would be better for their "checks" and the game as a whole

crit is a huge culprit

Alucardo · July 2021

It's not the worst idea (definitely not as bad as the proposed damage mitigation). I feel like a broken record here, but we need soft caps back. It's the only way to properly control damage output and mitigation without making certain builds and play styles stronger than others.

Sephyr · July 2021

colossalvoids wrote: »

It's not that drastically different from their mitigation idea tbh, at least the problems are staying anyway. Players without skill and even gear will still die, balance passes will be still "no ETA" and ball groups will be running but with just more survivability in their kit.

Edit: I have no idea what zos can do at this point as they already messed too much and gone full circle back on lots of problems throughout years. We need to broke the circle somehow and not rotate same problems.

I didn't know how to put into words and had a draft saved, but you summed things up rather succinctly about my current thoughts. Especially in the edit.

Too much has been messed with and I just really don't know what all can be done at this point. It feels like everything's been done, tried, and tried again.

StarOfElyon · July 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

Un-nerfing crit resist would help. A lot of spikes are from high crit and guarantees of it out of stealth.

I stopped wearing inpen lately. I'm not building just to counter night blades when the damage is so high that they'll kill you anyway if they're good. And also many other builds don't crit much at all but can still peel your scalp off. They only way to insure you don't get nuked in a second is to go vamp stage 3 and wear a defensive set. Even then it's not guaranteed to save you.

The issue is builds. Some damage from procs and even skills are able to stack and hit all at once. Vate 2H is a big offender. Wonder why it's on almost every stamina build, in spite of cries about build diversity months ago? It's overturned and it helps stack damage so that procs or combos hit too hard and rapidly to recover from. One heavy attack can trigger procs or effects that will fill your death recap.

VaranisArano · July 2021

ZOS seems to not want to impact PVE with this change. Since ZOS is also historically unwilling to use battlespirit to make little tweaks to classes and builds, I suspect the process of trying to tweak the outliers would result in more impact to PVE.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2021

I agree that this would be a healthier change than what is currently planned.

LightYagami · July 2021

They must fix some health based damage skills if they implement this Again.

We all know how annoying those high health damage dealing tanks were a few patches ago.

Don't bring them back.

JayKwellen · July 2021

It would honestly be better than 16%.

Lest we forget (like the developers did when they forgot battle spirit is 44%, not 50%), 16% translates in practice into 32%.

32% more mitigation. The developers are giving everyone ironblood just for stepping into PvP.

I mean, how is it not obvious that this is going to turn into a complete clown show?

ExistingRug61 · July 2021

The other problem that if they don’t need healing with battle spirit as well then they are changing the balance of damage vs healing as well as extending TTK. Which is what can lead to stalemates.

So if they also reduced healing via battle spirit it could still balance out.

Changing to bonus health instead avoids this with the exception of heals or procs that scale off health which could then need adjusting but this then affects PvE.

Another suggestion:
Players lose the flat 1000 bonus spell and weapon damage in PvP.
This reduces damage and (non health based) healing equally, while extending TTK a bit and also not affecting PvE.
Still not perfect as it changes the balance between heals that scale with damage/stat vs health, but in a less direct way than if health was buffed.

Thuragan · July 2021

Bad proposition. A lot of you are forgetting that some skills and sets scale off Max HP, thus it would make it extremely unbalanced and biased towards those skills and sets.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2021

Tbh. All they need to do is to revert battle spirit health recovery nerf. All troubles with TTK being too low started with it. No need to make dmg taken reduction higher imho.

Greek_Hellspawn · July 2021

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. All they need to do is to revert battle spirit health recovery nerf. All troubles with TTK being too low started with it. No need to make dmg taken reduction higher imho.

Wanted to write the exact same thing, just remove the health recovery penalty.

Syrpynt · July 2021

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

In group settings, you select your character's "role."

That role is a "tag", and battlespirit should give you a buff and nerf depending on your role:

Tank: +buffs and debuffs by 10%, -damage done by 10%
DD: +damage done by 10%, -healing done by 20%
Healer: +healing done by 20%, -damage done by 20%

Healer+dps, and Tank+dps hybrid builds are what make the combat imbalanced. If you want survivability, be a tank or healer. But if you want to do damage, you better have a healer or tank to support you.

The people who disagree are usually someone who taunts players to follow them and heals through all their attacks, then attacks them and kills them. You can't have both. You should be out of resources also if you're healing through someone else's attacks.

It's not about building smart, it's about how it's game-breaking. The lack of build variety comes from not having a divide between roles.

Brrrofski · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

In group settings, you select your character's "role."

That role is a "tag", and battlespirit should give you a buff and nerf depending on your role:

Tank: +buffs and debuffs by 10%, -damage done by 10%
DD: +damage done by 10%, -healing done by 20%
Healer: +healing done by 20%, -damage done by 20%

Healer+dps, and Tank+dps hybrid builds are what make the combat imbalanced. If you want survivability, be a tank or healer. But if you want to do damage, you better have a healer or tank to support you.

The people who disagree are usually someone who taunts players to follow them and heals through all their attacks, then attacks them and kills them. You can't have both. You should be out of resources also if you're healing through someone else's attacks.

It's not about building smart, it's about how it's game-breaking. The lack of build variety comes from not having a divide between roles.

No thanks, that sounds incredibly boring and favours bigger groups.

That change would kill pvp.

Alucardo · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

In group settings, you select your character's "role."

That role is a "tag", and battlespirit should give you a buff and nerf depending on your role:

Tank: +buffs and debuffs by 10%, -damage done by 10%
DD: +damage done by 10%, -healing done by 20%
Healer: +healing done by 20%, -damage done by 20%

The beauty of pvp for me is you're not limited to roles like you are in pve. You can build however you like; go all damage, a balance between damage and sturdiness, more damage and a little sturdiness, lots of sturdiness with a little damage. The possibilities are endless.
With all respect, I hate your suggestion and I wish you never mentioned it.

Vevvev · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

In group settings, you select your character's "role."

That role is a "tag", and battlespirit should give you a buff and nerf depending on your role:

Tank: +buffs and debuffs by 10%, -damage done by 10%
DD: +damage done by 10%, -healing done by 20%
Healer: +healing done by 20%, -damage done by 20%

Healer+dps, and Tank+dps hybrid builds are what make the combat imbalanced. If you want survivability, be a tank or healer. But if you want to do damage, you better have a healer or tank to support you.

The people who disagree are usually someone who taunts players to follow them and heals through all their attacks, then attacks them and kills them. You can't have both. You should be out of resources also if you're healing through someone else's attacks.

It's not about building smart, it's about how it's game-breaking. The lack of build variety comes from not having a divide between roles.

Everyone just rolls damage, gets a massive ball group together, build tanky, and now they get powerful cross healing that laughs at your nerf, a 10% damage boost, and are just as durable as they were before. No thanks.

jaws343 · July 2021

I think the issue with adding health back is everyone already complains about Sorcs now. Giving another 5K health on top would put my sorc builds in the 37-38K health range, with little effort to get there. 50K max mag and 38K health. Those shields would be tremendous. 22-23K shield easily, without changing a thing on the build I have set up this patch. It'd be great, shields back to their pre-nerf values, but people would lose their minds.