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I lost 10 million gold with one key stroke thanks to bad design

CaliphStudio
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I am the guild master of a trading guild, long story short, as i was bidding for traders as usual, until i noticed we dont have gold anymore, then i realized on one of the bids i had put one extra digit without knowing it, which made me pay 10 times the normal price, and emptied the whole guild bank, and there was nothing i could do.
First lets talk why this is bad design, and insanely so:
In case designers at Zenimax dont know this, when you have to do a boring routine thing (like bidding) your brain starts automatizing the task, so you can have your attention on more interesting matters, therefore you pay less and less attention, and finally, you will make mistakes, this is one of the fundamentals of UX design, humans make mistakes, specially on boring tasks, and the game does absolutely nothing to prevent the mistake, and 0 ways to correct it. and we are not talking about something you get to be very patient with, you have to bid 10 times every single week, all manually, it didnt happen for me for 2 years, but now that it did, i either have to farm gold and loan money like crazy, or disband my 2yo guild because of one wrong keystroke, a guild gone for one wrong keystroke, it could even be more dramatic had it been a bigger guild, would 100 million gold make designers do something about this ? this is as much as you could lose if you make the same mistake on a craglorn trader.
And a wrong keystroke is not the only way this could happen, lets imagine i have 3 guilds, 1-"Cool kids" 2-"Cool erp'ers" 3-"Cool traders" and i am a member of the first 2 and the guild master of the third, when i start bidding, my default guild is "Cool traders" because i have no rank for bidding in the first 2, but if i become an officers of "Cool kids", my brain being used to "Cool traders" as default will start bidding without changing the guild, but the game has now changed the bids to "Cool kids" simply because it is my first guild, and i can end up wasting somebody's money, even if i notice it a minute after. sorry cool kids.
Now lets see how easy it is to prevent this:
I am not a ZoS game designer and thinking about this in an hour i can come up with 10 ways to prevent this but for those who do not know, any stress put on servers is there for when the bids get calculated, thats on tuesday evenings when its decided who gets what trader, so none of my solutions make it harder on the servers, not drastically at least.
1- why can we increase the number of a bid, but not decrease it? nobody can see the bids, and you can increase it, so we cant argue that whole system is built around fixed numbers, why cant we decrease then??
2- lets imagine decreasing bids go against their design goal, for whatever reason, how about being able to delete or decrease bids for 30 minutes after putting them, that way its no longer a system to use, just a way to correct mistakes with.
3- okay lets imagine even 30 minutes is not acceptable, how about an option where you can limit your own bids, a box that you put "5mil" in it, and any bid above 5mil will not be applied anymore, its easy to implement, and it puts no pressure on server, it doesnt change anything about the bids, just a controls the amount you put in there, same as you not being able to put more than you have for example.
4- why do we pay upfront for every single bid again? its not like we can win all, if your trader costs 2mil, why do you have to have 20mil to bid on 10 of them? wouldnt it be a better system if we had to bid on each trader just below our money, and when we won the trader, when we would pay? this way we could self-control the mistakes, by not putting high amounts of money in guild bank when bidding.
5- even if all these are too hard for ZoS to implement, how about a disable option? where you dont change anything about your bids, you just have a button to disable them, meaning you dont get the money back either, it just works same as you losing the bid, if you bid 10 mil on one trader and 8 on another and win the 10 mil one, your 8mil bid will get disregarded even if its the highest bid on the trader, and the money will return to your bank on tuesday, you could imagine the "disable" button to work exactly as the 8mil option, it just gets disregarded, for those who think this is hard to make, i am a programmer and designer myself, all it takes to implement is checking another condition for each bid, and even if we have 2k bids on each server every week, thats only 2k conditions being checked, nothing for a server to work out, at least nothing to slow it down or bug it out, unless they have done their bid-checking algorithm so wrong that it checks every bid more than once, which could be the case seeing the number of times the bid system bugged out on PC-EU.
5 Solutions, and not utopian all in solutions, these are functional and easy to create options, which if ZoS cares about their UX, takes no resources to create. and no more guilds have to be disbanded because of simple mistakes that WILL happen, that is why you have a "lock" option to not destroy your items by mistake, and a "buy back" option when you sell something by mistake, we are humans ZoS, we are not supposed to be expected to be 100% perfect when dealing with the game.

In regards to different guilds, the easiest solution is letting us put a default guild for bids, its even useful for when were choosing which guild to list our items in, im sure most of the people reading this have listed an item in the wrong guild just because its number 1, and have had to cancel, change zone to a get a mail, go to the bank, and put the item again, how about a "NO".

I hope somebody at ZoS reads this at least, but either way thanks for your time if you read this.
  • Alucardo
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    It doesn't prompt you at all? Like, "Are you sure you want to bid 10 mil?". If it doesn't have a system like that, then yes that's bad. But the fault also lies with you for not paying attention. Mundane task or not, when you're dealing with hard earnt gold, don't switch your brain off and then blame the system.
  • CaliphStudio
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    It doesn't prompt you at all? Like, "Are you sure you want to bid 10 mil?". If it doesn't have a system like that, then yes that's bad. But the fault also lies with you for not paying attention. Mundane task or not, when you're dealing with hard earnt gold, don't switch your brain off and then blame the system.

    With the same logic we can say "You need to remember your password, it is a serious matter, and we dont care how human brain works, so no way to recover passwords, if you forget, you lose your account"

    It doesnt prompt you, and if it did, wouldnt help, it would be another message your brain would ignore, the point is, for me too it didnt happen for 2 years, but the impact is so great, even if it happens once every year for the entire game, that means a guild gone for no reason a year, again youre designing for humans not machines, so why not prevent human-mistakes from ruining the game and fun for some people?
  • Old_Foggy
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    I have a rule I stick to, never put things on sale when tired or distracted, and never shop for items when tired or distracted. I have done both in the past and it can be costly. Focus on what you're doing and nothing else.
  • Girl_Number8
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    I bet your guild wishes for the option to demote you....

    Sounds like an oopsy moment that should of not happened. Poor guildies, must feel like investors to a hedge fund that lost their money.

    5hhfbc.jpg
  • ADarklore
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    Claiming that something you do ONCE per week is 'automating' is a stretch. If you cannot take responsibility for YOUR actions, bite the bullet and accept responsibility... [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 24, 2021 4:57PM
    CP: 2105 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
    ~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025 | Returned: March 2026~~
  • Sirvaleen
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    Sorry for your guild but afaik no system can be completely human-proof.
    We all make mistakes we have to live with and assume.. since we are the ones at fault.
  • CaliphStudio
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    If you think such a problem will not happen, or if it happens, it doesnt matter, then sure keep the game running as is.
    I have provided ways to prevent such mistakes, this is not a whining post.

    It amuses me how everybody here says a game letting you make mistakes is a better one than the same game not letting you.

    Sure nothing can be completely human-proof, but a "human product" must be as human proof as possible, and eso's bidding system certainly is not.

    If you know anything about how human brain works, you should realize that mistakes WILL happen, its not a question of "IF"s, all it takes is a bad day, or a laggy moment or a hasty situation for you to make them, and it is a designer's job to make it as easy to recover from one as possible (again, like the buy back option, all the ppl here saying we are the ones at fault, who agrees with ZoS removing the buy back option? after all we are the ones at fault)

    I have lost my money and im not getting it back, this is not about that, i will also be more careful for the next 2 years at least, this post is just about the game getting better, because i know what happened to me will happen again, and it will make somebody upset again, but if some people think its better for the game to keep allowing players to lose their money, so be it.
    Edited by CaliphStudio on July 24, 2021 1:57PM
  • Sheezabeast
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    Your defensiveness is just you trying to feel better about what happened. It must suck being you right now. I feel for you, but you can't blame the game. You knew you were on an airplane, to be on autopilot...
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • waterfairy
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    sucks that happened but you can't blame the game because your brain went afk
  • CaliphStudio
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    Your defensiveness is just you trying to feel better about what happened. It must suck being you right now. I feel for you, but you can't blame the game. You knew you were on an airplane, to be on autopilot...

    I was feeling bad when this happened, on monday, im over feeling bad, this is just how i think the game would be better.
    I wrote what i thought and only hope some of the staff reads this, got nothing else to gain or lose in here, and after all its their games and their choice, im just giving solutions to bad design.
  • GOAT4EVAR
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    If you think such a problem will not happen, or if it happens, it doesnt matter, then sure keep the game running as is.
    I have provided ways to prevent such mistakes, this is not a whining post.

    It amuses me how everybody here says a game letting you make mistakes is a better one than the same game not letting you.

    Sure nothing can be completely human-proof, but a "human product" must be as human proof as possible, and eso's bidding system certainly is not.

    If you know anything about how human brain works, you should realize that mistakes WILL happen, its not a question of "IF"s, all it takes is a bad day, or a laggy moment or a hasty situation for you to make them, and it is a designer's job to make it as easy to recover from one as possible (again, like the buy back option, all the ppl here saying we are the ones at fault, who agrees with ZoS removing the buy back option? after all we are the ones at fault)

    I have lost my money and im not getting it back, this is not about that, i will also be more careful for the next 2 years at least, this post is just about the game getting better, because i know what happened to me will happen again, and it will make somebody upset again, but if some people think its better for the game to keep allowing players to lose their money, so be it.

    Sure mistakes happends to the best. And sure when its your own gold and you buy/sell items and you make a typo then sure i can understand not paying full attention since its YOUR gold. But when you are dealing with the guilds gold then you better pay full attention during the entire process because if you make it a mistake your entire guild will feel the hit. The fact that you dont pay full attention when you are doing something so important for your guilds finances then you are probably not suited for the task at hand.
    Edited by GOAT4EVAR on July 24, 2021 2:09PM
  • Girl_Number8
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    If you think such a problem will not happen, or if it happens, it doesnt matter, then sure keep the game running as is.
    I have provided ways to prevent such mistakes, this is not a whining post.

    It amuses me how everybody here says a game letting you make mistakes is a better one than the same game not letting you.

    Sure nothing can be completely human-proof, but a "human product" must be as human proof as possible, and eso's bidding system certainly is not.

    If you know anything about how human brain works, you should realize that mistakes WILL happen, its not a question of "IF"s, all it takes is a bad day, or a laggy moment or a hasty situation for you to make them, and it is a designer's job to make it as easy to recover from one as possible (again, like the buy back option, all the ppl here saying we are the ones at fault, who agrees with ZoS removing the buy back option? after all we are the ones at fault)

    I have lost my money and im not getting it back, this is not about that, i will also be more careful for the next 2 years at least, this post is just about the game getting better, because i know what happened to me will happen again, and it will make somebody upset again, but if some people think its better for the game to keep allowing players to lose their money, so be it.

    But it was your mistake

    ”In case designers at Zenimax dont know this, when you have to do a boring routine thing (like bidding) your brain starts automatizing the task, so you can have your attention on more interesting matters”

    Your guildies trusted you. Nothing should be more important then the task at hand.

    They worked hard getting you their gold. Except rather then pay attention and do what you were trusted to do, you were thinking about more interesting things !!

    Sorry but that is on you and you alone. You messed up on what you were supposed to do, no matter how boring you find it. You’re obviously not cut out for that task. And because you said, “i know what happened to me will happen again” you really should put someone more capable in charge of it.

    This is sounding more and more like the dog ate my homework....excuse

    When I am bidding on traders that is all I am focusing on. I have my lists pre-written down and how high I am going to bid on each of them, as agreed.

    And I do not find it an amusing matter, I feel badly for your guildies. They should of been the priority and nothing else.
    Edited by Girl_Number8 on July 24, 2021 2:09PM
  • DragonRacer
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    I do agree that it makes no sense to be unable to decrease a bid amount, only increase. I also wish at times that you could move a bid from one trader to a different one. Honestly, bids should be allowed to be fluid up until the bidding time cutoff. But there are many things that should be and aren't, and we know this and have to work around what we know. Heck, it's taken ZOS what? 7 or 8 years to finally decide to add a dang reply button to in-game mail? How basic and obvious a feature should that have been?

    That being said - and I feel terribly for your mistake - the absolute most important task of a trader GM is bidding. Raising the funds to bid, and then carefully placing those bids. Autopilot brain is for crafting dailies, treasure map hunting, survey/node farming, tasks where if something goes awry, it only affects you and only minimally. Not potentially up to 500 people who have pitched in funds for the cause. I've been at this for 6+ years now. Placing 10 bids weekly can feel mundane, absolutely. But it gets 100% of my sole focus because of how important it is - I don't group up or party chat with anyone, don't answer texts, no distractions allowed while I do nothing but take that 15 minutes or less to go place my bids. Then I shut my brain off.
    PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer13
  • CaliphStudio
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    But it was your mistake

    ”In case designers at Zenimax dont know this, when you have to do a boring routine thing (like bidding) your brain starts automatizing the task, so you can have your attention on more interesting matters”

    Your guildies trusted you. Nothing should be more important then the task at hand.

    They worked hard getting you their gold. Except rather then pay attention and do what you were trusted to do, you were thinking about more interesting things !!

    Sorry but that is on you and you alone. You messed up on what you were supposed to do, no matter how boring you find it. You’re obviously not cut out for that task. And because you said, “i know what happened to me will happen again” you really should put someone more capable in charge of it.

    This is sounding more and more like the dog ate my homework....excuse

    When I am bidding on traders that is all I am focusing on. I have my lists pre-written down and how high I am going to bid on each of them, as agreed.

    And I do not find it an amusing matter, I feel badly for your guildies. They should of been the priority and nothing else.


    For all those feeling bad for people who trusted me, i was the guild master, the gold was mine, nobody else is hit, so you dont have to worry about the guild

    The same mistake wont happen for me, it will happen for others, in fact it happened 3 years ago to somebody i knew.
    It also didnt happen for 2+ years of me bidding, i know full well how to bid, i have my list down, im not being confused about bids, its an extra "0", since there is alot of it, you dont get the difference, 2 years of doing it write doesnt count, but one time, one extra 0 does.

    I dont know whats the insistence on lack of a simple design to prevent all this.
    Edited by CaliphStudio on July 24, 2021 2:15PM
  • GOAT4EVAR
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    But it was your mistake

    ”In case designers at Zenimax dont know this, when you have to do a boring routine thing (like bidding) your brain starts automatizing the task, so you can have your attention on more interesting matters”

    Your guildies trusted you. Nothing should be more important then the task at hand.

    They worked hard getting you their gold. Except rather then pay attention and do what you were trusted to do, you were thinking about more interesting things !!

    Sorry but that is on you and you alone. You messed up on what you were supposed to do, no matter how boring you find it. You’re obviously not cut out for that task. And because you said, “i know what happened to me will happen again” you really should put someone more capable in charge of it.

    This is sounding more and more like the dog ate my homework....excuse

    When I am bidding on traders that is all I am focusing on. I have my lists pre-written down and how high I am going to bid on each of them, as agreed.

    And I do not find it an amusing matter, I feel badly for your guildies. They should of been the priority and nothing else.


    For all those feeling bad for people who trusted me, i was the guild master, the gold was mine, nobody else is hit, so you dont have to worry about the guild

    The same mistake wont happen for me, it will happen for others, in fact it happened 3 years ago to somebody i knew.
    It also didnt happen for 2+ years of me bidding, i know full well how to bid, i have my list down, im not being confused about bids, its an extra "0", since there is alot of it, you dont get the difference, 2 years of doing it write doesnt count, but one time, one extra 0 does.

    I dont know whats the insistence on lack of a simple design to prevent all this.


    Ok buddy.

  • CaliphStudio
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    I do agree that it makes no sense to be unable to decrease a bid amount, only increase. I also wish at times that you could move a bid from one trader to a different one. Honestly, bids should be allowed to be fluid up until the bidding time cutoff. But there are many things that should be and aren't, and we know this and have to work around what we know. Heck, it's taken ZOS what? 7 or 8 years to finally decide to add a dang reply button to in-game mail? How basic and obvious a feature should that have been?

    That being said - and I feel terribly for your mistake - the absolute most important task of a trader GM is bidding. Raising the funds to bid, and then carefully placing those bids. Autopilot brain is for crafting dailies, treasure map hunting, survey/node farming, tasks where if something goes awry, it only affects you and only minimally. Not potentially up to 500 people who have pitched in funds for the cause. I've been at this for 6+ years now. Placing 10 bids weekly can feel mundane, absolutely. But it gets 100% of my sole focus because of how important it is - I don't group up or party chat with anyone, don't answer texts, no distractions allowed while I do nothing but take that 15 minutes or less to go place my bids. Then I shut my brain off.

    I totally agree, it is all my fault, and i should be as careful as possible, but again, this is not about my loss, we are talking about a digital product, its not a gun being handed to you.

    Im not being angry, im just saying a better system can stop any of these from happening in the future, without hurting anybody, somebody tell me, why is that a bad suggestion?

    I really dont need almost everybody to tell me im the one who made the mistake, i know full well, the only one who has to make up for it would be me, but please answer this, why shouldnt there be a better system ? why not prevent this when you can ?
  • zelaminator
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    All your suggestions would just make the system more complicated and open to trouble or manipulation.. the only true answer here is that you need to pay more attention..

  • CaliphStudio
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    All your suggestions would just make the system more complicated and open to trouble or manipulation.. the only true answer here is that you need to pay more attention..

    Could you instead mention how exactly any of those suggestions open the system to "manipulation" ? or make it more complicated? just saying it is easy
  • Shantu
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    People make mistakes. Period. Blame the user all you want, but commons sense, and courtesy for that matter, would dictate a mistake that just cost you 10 times the amount of gold you intended to pay should be fixable...particularly if that amount stretches into the millions.
  • ADarklore
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    Shantu wrote: »
    People make mistakes. Period. Blame the user all you want, but commons sense, and courtesy for that matter, would dictate a mistake that just cost you 10 times the amount of gold you intended to pay should be fixable...particularly if that amount stretches into the millions.

    WHY? Why is this 'common sense'? If a person isn't paying attention to what they're doing.. how is it the game's fault and why should the devs even care?
    CP: 2105 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
    ~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025 | Returned: March 2026~~
  • CaliphStudio
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    Shantu wrote: »
    People make mistakes. Period. Blame the user all you want, but commons sense, and courtesy for that matter, would dictate a mistake that just cost you 10 times the amount of gold you intended to pay should be fixable...particularly if that amount stretches into the millions.

    WHY? Why is this 'common sense'? If a person isn't paying attention to what they're doing.. how is it the game's fault and why should the devs even care?

    Can i ask why you can send a request for the character you removed with millions of guild in its inventory by mistake to be restored? and the devs actually care enough to restore it ?
    Its the same reason.
    Its also why you can recover your password, while you are fully responsible for remembering it.

    You can even edit a simple message on this forum, in case you make mistakes, how come you cant edit your bid when it can have such a massive impact, it has 0 downsides from a design perspective.
  • Tandor
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Well.

    You guys are always complaining about having nothing to spend your gold on.

    They're also always saying how many millions a week they make from trading, so if the guild members had a whip-round they'd refill the coffers with their loose change.

    As for the OP's proposals, this isn't a problem I recall seeing reported regularly on the forum so I'm not clear why one person having a momentary distraction once in two years warrants the developers diverting from other things to make significant changes to the trading system's bidding arrangements.

    I do sympathise with the lapse of concentration on the OP's part, I've had a few of those over the years, but a decent guild should take his explanation and work together to overcome it.
  • spartaxoxo
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    Sirvaleen wrote: »
    Sorry for your guild but afaik no system can be completely human-proof.
    We all make mistakes we have to live with and assume.. since we are the ones at fault.

    I mean it's as simple as adding a prompt and a cancel button with a small time frame, pretty standard design features for anything that is gonna be dealing with major purchases.

    Saying this when the OP is suggesting extremely standard features because of human nature doesn't really make sense. It would be one thing if there were protections that they blew through, but that's not the case.

    The amount of people excusing bad design because OP shares some of the blame is mind boggling tbh.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on July 24, 2021 4:49PM
  • SirAndy
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    Simple fix, allow bidders to retract a bid

    poke.gif

  • spartaxoxo
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    Simple fix, allow bidders to retract a bid

    poke.gif

    Agree. I am honestly kind of blown away this isn't already the case. Entire guilds deleted overnight, literally hundreds of people's effort wasted because of a simple mistake by one person? Meanwhile I can buyback my personal items from a merchant even if they are like 1 coin?

    Humans beings aren't robots. They are gonna make mistakes. Show me a person who's never made one and I'll show you a healthy newborn infant being delivered. A proper system handling our ingame income would have a way to fix this and a prompt to prevent it.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on July 24, 2021 4:55PM
  • VaranisArano
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    Leaving aside the circumstances of the request, having the ability to edit one's trader bid seems like a reasonable request.

    I once had a guildie list a gold minotar motif for 50 gold. I spotted it, nabbed it, and mailed it back to them. They were like "Oops, meant to list that for 50,000. Thanks!"

    We can edit our listings on guild traders if we see that we need to. There's nothing wrong with asking to be able to edit one's guild trader bid either.
  • WeerW3ir
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    Blaming zos for your own fail. Alrighty...
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings!

    Recently, we've had to remove a few posts for Baiting, content that is against the Community Rules.
    • Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.
    For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.

    Thank you for understanding.
    Staff Post
  • santhoranb16_ESO
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    Agree nothing speaks against a timed period of being able to change a bit again in case a mistake happens.Misbidding can happen and should be correctable. No reason why not to. And if somethings up with the bid checking, it could disable the bid-correction option like 30mins before the bid-change happens so nothing goes wrong to "last-second change trys".
  • Sirvaleen
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Sirvaleen wrote: »
    Sorry for your guild but afaik no system can be completely human-proof.
    We all make mistakes we have to live with and assume.. since we are the ones at fault.

    I mean it's as simple as adding a prompt and a cancel button with a small time frame, pretty standard design features for anything that is gonna be dealing with major purchases.

    Saying this when the OP is suggesting extremely standard features because of human nature doesn't really make sense. It would be one thing if there were protections that they blew through, but that's not the case.

    The amount of people excusing bad design because OP shares some of the blame is mind boggling tbh.

    I could be wrong but I very much doubt adding a cancel button in a MMO is a "simple" thing.

    I would love to CTRL-Z any action/interaction I do mistakenly, like buying something I intended to only preview, or craft something with the wrong level, as minor examples. But that option is not there, either because undoing these things is not that easily or securely implemented or well.. we can guess there but we will never know, will we ?

    In the specific case of bidding, is it bad design ? Well, I never did that kind of advanced programming in a MMO, nor have I played on another MMO operating with a similar system, so I'm not in a position to objectively evaluate it.

    So yes, even if it doesn't make sense to you I stand by what I said, namely that mistakes will always happen because of human nature even when we feel we're entitled to be able to undo them in a virtual environment.
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