What if heavy attacks restored both resources?

Sublegend · July 2021

With the current balance changes allowing more and more hybrid setups, the option to have all heavies restore both resources seems more appealing. With dagger mag dps creeping into the meta you are forced to heavy attack on your backbar staff; with stam allowing use of staves on backbar you are forced to heavy on front. Why not just both? Tanks would love it and DD's will likely just complain that we are encouraging the use of hybrid dps...

PVP you say?...well...who cares its all busted.

At a minimum it could be tied in with Off balance; Where heavy attacking while an enemy is off balance restores both.

jaws343 · July 2021

You may not care about PVP but many do. This would be flat out broken in PVP. Not a good idea.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2021

Just make heavy attacks restore your highest resource (including health :-D).

If ZOS made them restore both mag and stam,they would probably restore half as much of each, which would be awful for PvE (and if ZOS somehow decided not to split the Regen, it would be awful for PvP).

propertyOfUndefined · July 2021

I would love this, and feel like it’s the next logical step in the direction they seem to be taking the game in.

I think they should at least restore the higher of the 2 stats - i.e. the stat they are getting their damage from

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I would love this, and feel like it’s the next logical step in the direction they seem to be taking the game in.

I think they should at least restore the higher of the 2 stats - i.e. the stat they are getting their damage from

That seems like a fair compromise. Would solve the issue of dagger heavies giving no Magicka to Magicka builds in PVE, without giving Magicka builds unlimited stamina on Staff builds in PVP.

StarOfElyon · July 2021

I don't understand how heavy attacks restore resources anyway lol. That makes no sense. Like, I'm going to swing my sword as hard as I can and get the opposite of tired af.

Alucardo · July 2021

That would be so insanely broken, especially if in heavy armor. Absolutely not. If there were a passive in the 2H/DW/SnB trees that lets you restore your highest stat, then maybe. But definitely not both.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · July 2021

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't understand how heavy attacks restore resources anyway lol. That makes no sense. Like, I'm going to swing my sword as hard as I can and get the opposite of tired af.

I think zos tried switching it last year but people were not down for it.

Syrpynt · July 2021

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't understand how heavy attacks restore resources anyway lol. That makes no sense. Like, I'm going to swing my sword as hard as I can and get the opposite of tired af.

I think zos tried switching it last year but people were not down for it.

People didn't like it because heavy attacks were going to hit HARDER than light attacks (specifically referring to dps) which I agree with actually.

The problem then comes down to animation cancelling would get jacked up, and the "top players" rely on it like meth. Couldn't rebalance the game to have cooldowns, could we?

And as a side note, I think spells/abilities should cost 1/2 as less, regen doesn't come from heavy or light attacks, and regen is increased with a 2nd set of attribute points or something.

If cooldowns were a thing in the game, and animation cancelling were nixed, balancing this games combat would be so much easier. But that would require another 1-Tamriel size of an update...

zvavi · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't understand how heavy attacks restore resources anyway lol. That makes no sense. Like, I'm going to swing my sword as hard as I can and get the opposite of tired af.

I think zos tried switching it last year but people were not down for it.

People didn't like it because heavy attacks were going to hit HARDER than light attacks (specifically referring to dps) which I agree with actually.

This is such a simplification and misinformation about all the reasons it was a bad idea.

Syrpynt · July 2021

zvavi wrote: »

This is such a simplification and misinformation about all the reasons it was a bad idea.

Elaborate (but no need to mention the needs to rebalance the damage-regen globally since I already covered that).

Jierdanit · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

If cooldowns were a thing in the game, and animation cancelling were nixed, balancing this games combat would be so much easier. But that would require another 1-Tamriel size of an update...

And it would make the game way less fun for quite a large amount of players.

Im playing this game, because it doesnt have cooldowns and has a fast paced combat and i dont think im the only one.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

This is such a simplification and misinformation about all the reasons it was a bad idea.

Elaborate (but no need to mention the needs to rebalance the damage-regen globally since I already covered that).

I'm pretty sure the main problem was with how light attacks were handled. The stated intention of the change was to make weaving have a smaller impact on DPS by reducing the damage of light attacks. This angered the pro-weaving crowd. Then, the actual implementation added resource restoration to light attacks, which wound up making weaving even more important than it is now (because it allowed people who could weave to build for essentially zero sustain). This, understandably, angered the anti-weaving crowd, while also failing to achieve the stated goal. Ultimately the whole idea was dropped as a failure.

Amottica · July 2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I would love this, and feel like it’s the next logical step in the direction they seem to be taking the game in.

I think they should at least restore the higher of the 2 stats - i.e. the stat they are getting their damage from

This seems to be a logical approach.

I also suggest not showing disregard for the PvP population. Many still go into Cyrodiil, especially during a related event. Others spend a lot of time in BGs.

zvavi · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

This is such a simplification and misinformation about all the reasons it was a bad idea.

Elaborate (but no need to mention the needs to rebalance the damage-regen globally since I already covered that).

Your first part of the post, refering to the changes proposed, saying that they were shot down because heavy attacks were hitting too hard, has no connection to the total game revamp you proposed in the 3rd and 4th paragraph. And if you want elaboration to all the reasons it was bad idea you can dig up the PTS discussions.

alberichtano · July 2021

To be honest, I don't get why we get resources back for heavy attacks. It makes absolutely no sense. It would be like saying that lifting small things does nothing to your fatigue, but lifting HEAVY things refreshes. It is absurd.

Ippokrates · July 2021

Maybe not all weapons, but Resto Staff could do both. From mechanical & climat perspective.

Ippokrates · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

To be honest, I don't get why we get resources back for heavy attacks. It makes absolutely no sense. It would be like saying that lifting small things does nothing to your fatigue, but lifting HEAVY things refreshes. It is absurd.

It has sense on magic regain - when you are focusing, you can get some mental potential back

But with stamina - the only explanation i see is a situation when your character is doing both: attacking (LA) & using skill BUT when you are performing HA, instead of two attacks & two skills, you are doing it only once, therefore tou have time to take a breathe

Sublegend · July 2021

Now I know I sarcastically said "who cares about PVP" but that isn't really the case more a nod at the fact that PVP is heavily played with patch to patch drastically changing meta.

How would bistat return be broken in PVP though? A change in playstyle sure but I don't personally see it being "broken" per se.

Syrpynt · July 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Your first part of the post, refering to the changes proposed, saying that they were shot down because heavy attacks were hitting too hard, has no connection to the total game revamp you proposed in the 3rd and 4th paragraph. And if you want elaboration to all the reasons it was bad idea you can dig up the PTS discussions.

Ok, if you're not even going to summarize, it doesn't provide adequate rebuttal, or contribution to this discussion. Half the people reading this (estimate) aren't going to do the research themselves.

Syrpynt · July 2021

Jierdanit wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

If cooldowns were a thing in the game, and animation cancelling were nixed, balancing this games combat would be so much easier. But that would require another 1-Tamriel size of an update...

And it would make the game way less fun for quite a large amount of players.

Im playing this game, because it doesnt have cooldowns and has a fast paced combat and i dont think im the only one.

Not if the game was rebalanced, that point is moot. I don't animation cancel anymore because I was tired of buying new gear when keys/buttons broke. The "release" aspect of the triggering actions is annoying and holding down keys and buttons to time it all just wears them out faster. In that respect, animation cancelling is P2W. lol

jrgray93 · July 2021

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't understand how heavy attacks restore resources anyway lol. That makes no sense. Like, I'm going to swing my sword as hard as I can and get the opposite of tired af.

I can slam a stick on the ground and cause ice to erupt in a strictly defined dimension on the floor. I think it's past time to question things.

Jierdanit · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

If cooldowns were a thing in the game, and animation cancelling were nixed, balancing this games combat would be so much easier. But that would require another 1-Tamriel size of an update...

And it would make the game way less fun for quite a large amount of players.

Im playing this game, because it doesnt have cooldowns and has a fast paced combat and i dont think im the only one.

Not if the game was rebalanced, that point is moot. I don't animation cancel anymore because I was tired of buying new gear when keys/buttons broke. The "release" aspect of the triggering actions is annoying and holding down keys and buttons to time it all just wears them out faster. In that respect, animation cancelling is P2W. lol

I dont really know what rebalancing is supposed to change in that aspect.

Imo animation cancelling is a good mechanic and should stay in the game, because without it the game is not going to be as much fun as it is.
They already got rid of block cancelling pretty much and made the game quite a bit slower in my opinion.

And cooldowns would slow it down even more than removing animation cancelling.

Vevvev · July 2021

Sublegend wrote: »

How would bistat return be broken in PVP though? A change in playstyle sure but I don't personally see it being "broken" per se.

Because in PvP we make much more use out of the break free and dodge rolling system. Your weapon choices have a massive impact on how you build and fight, and I'll take for example the Restoration staff.

I use the Restoration staff as a back bar weapon specifically for magicka regeneration on heavy attacks and the occasional casting of Radiating Regeneration. If that passive that increased the amount of Magicka you got from heavy attacks by 30% also restored stamina by the same amount.... Unlimited dodge rolling on a build where stamina is used exclusively for such things since all my abilities cost Magicka. Everything would be turned up on its head.

Now take another weapon for example the Sword and Shield. I can imagine a Warden or DK build spamming their Magicka heal while getting the added benefit of the shield and increased blocking. Should they need more Magicka they wouldn't be burdened by having to equip a magical weapon on the back bar and could just do a quick heavy attack from the S&B. This would be terrifyingly brutal, especially if they had a back bar 2-handed weapon with a lethal burst followed by Executioner.

zvavi · July 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Your first part of the post, refering to the changes proposed, saying that they were shot down because heavy attacks were hitting too hard, has no connection to the total game revamp you proposed in the 3rd and 4th paragraph. And if you want elaboration to all the reasons it was bad idea you can dig up the PTS discussions.

Ok, if you're not even going to summarize, it doesn't provide adequate rebuttal, or contribution to this discussion. Half the people reading this (estimate) aren't going to do the research themselves.

Summary: they wanted to raise floor and lower ceiling with those changes. They failed.

Sublegend · July 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Sublegend wrote: »

How would bistat return be broken in PVP though? A change in playstyle sure but I don't personally see it being "broken" per se.

Because in PvP we make much more use out of the break free and dodge rolling system. Your weapon choices have a massive impact on how you build and fight, and I'll take for example the Restoration staff.

I use the Restoration staff as a back bar weapon specifically for magicka regeneration on heavy attacks and the occasional casting of Radiating Regeneration. If that passive that increased the amount of Magicka you got from heavy attacks by 30% also restored stamina by the same amount.... Unlimited dodge rolling on a build where stamina is used exclusively for such things since all my abilities cost Magicka. Everything would be turned up on its head.

Now take another weapon for example the Sword and Shield. I can imagine a Warden or DK build spamming their Magicka heal while getting the added benefit of the shield and increased blocking. Should they need more Magicka they wouldn't be burdened by having to equip a magical weapon on the back bar and could just do a quick heavy attack from the S&B. This would be terrifyingly brutal, especially if they had a back bar 2-handed weapon with a lethal burst followed by Executioner.

I, personally, wouldn't consider the ability to get stam from staff heavies to be unlimited dodge rolling. You are still limited to dodging until out of stam...then you aren't getting free stam back; You have to heavy for it. Same concept with S&B. Although I do agree DK's would benefit from it with a health missing based heal. Resto passive stam return you would be getting a lot of stam. But Really how much resources does a heavy restore? I don't believe its much; 3-4k at the high end?(without passive boosts)

Still not convinced its broken.

Vevvev · July 2021

Sublegend wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sublegend wrote: »

How would bistat return be broken in PVP though? A change in playstyle sure but I don't personally see it being "broken" per se.

Because in PvP we make much more use out of the break free and dodge rolling system. Your weapon choices have a massive impact on how you build and fight, and I'll take for example the Restoration staff.

I use the Restoration staff as a back bar weapon specifically for magicka regeneration on heavy attacks and the occasional casting of Radiating Regeneration. If that passive that increased the amount of Magicka you got from heavy attacks by 30% also restored stamina by the same amount.... Unlimited dodge rolling on a build where stamina is used exclusively for such things since all my abilities cost Magicka. Everything would be turned up on its head.

Now take another weapon for example the Sword and Shield. I can imagine a Warden or DK build spamming their Magicka heal while getting the added benefit of the shield and increased blocking. Should they need more Magicka they wouldn't be burdened by having to equip a magical weapon on the back bar and could just do a quick heavy attack from the S&B. This would be terrifyingly brutal, especially if they had a back bar 2-handed weapon with a lethal burst followed by Executioner.

I, personally, wouldn't consider the ability to get stam from staff heavies to be unlimited dodge rolling. You are still limited to dodging until out of stam...then you aren't getting free stam back; You have to heavy for it. Same concept with S&B. Although I do agree DK's would benefit from it with a health missing based heal. Resto passive stam return you would be getting a lot of stam. But Really how much resources does a heavy restore? I don't believe its much; 3-4k at the high end?(without passive boosts)

Still not convinced its broken.

I always calculate the boosts into this discussion because they truely are powerful. Wearing Heavy Armor and Heavy Attacking with a resto staff is close to, if not over, 10k magicka back in a single pulse. When I tank with my PvE build with just the Sword and Board heavy attack I pretty much fully restore my entire, albeit small, stamina bar to full so I can go back to holding block and casting Puncture for a while more.

Might not seem like a lot on paper, but I'll bring into focus one more example.... werewolf. Thanks to Ferocious Roar their heavy attacks are 33% faster, and thanks to the Pursuit passive they restore 50% more resources. Werewolf's primary survivability tool is an incredibly expensive magicka ability, which forces werewolves to build tanky and with high magicka regeneration on a stamina build in order to actually survive. If you give them the ability to heavy attack and restore magicka.... the floodgates would be opened and werewolf would become a monster very few would be able to put down.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/ferocious-roar
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/pursuit

ealdwin · July 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

This is such a simplification and misinformation about all the reasons it was a bad idea.

Elaborate (but no need to mention the needs to rebalance the damage-regen globally since I already covered that).

I'm pretty sure the main problem was with how light attacks were handled. The stated intention of the change was to make weaving have a smaller impact on DPS by reducing the damage of light attacks. This angered the pro-weaving crowd. Then, the actual implementation added resource restoration to light attacks, which wound up making weaving even more important than it is now (because it allowed people who could weave to build for essentially zero sustain). This, understandably, angered the anti-weaving crowd, while also failing to achieve the stated goal. Ultimately the whole idea was dropped as a failure.

That's how I remember it. Too many odd changes were attempted that basically flipped everything upside down. It was very good that they never did anything with it aside from allowing light and heavy attacks to scale from highest resource.

Now, if they ever returned to the idea of taking resource gain away from heavy attacks in order to make other sources of sustain or resource gain (such as enchantments) more potent and crucial, I wouldn't be too opposed to at least see what that entailed. Especially if the result was a bit more benefit to choosing a sustain-focused race over a damage-focused one. (As in, sustain races aren't required, but the sustain they provide will actually feel needed and not redundant.)

Wuuffyy · July 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Sublegend wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sublegend wrote: »

How would bistat return be broken in PVP though? A change in playstyle sure but I don't personally see it being "broken" per se.

Because in PvP we make much more use out of the break free and dodge rolling system. Your weapon choices have a massive impact on how you build and fight, and I'll take for example the Restoration staff.

I use the Restoration staff as a back bar weapon specifically for magicka regeneration on heavy attacks and the occasional casting of Radiating Regeneration. If that passive that increased the amount of Magicka you got from heavy attacks by 30% also restored stamina by the same amount.... Unlimited dodge rolling on a build where stamina is used exclusively for such things since all my abilities cost Magicka. Everything would be turned up on its head.

Now take another weapon for example the Sword and Shield. I can imagine a Warden or DK build spamming their Magicka heal while getting the added benefit of the shield and increased blocking. Should they need more Magicka they wouldn't be burdened by having to equip a magical weapon on the back bar and could just do a quick heavy attack from the S&B. This would be terrifyingly brutal, especially if they had a back bar 2-handed weapon with a lethal burst followed by Executioner.

I, personally, wouldn't consider the ability to get stam from staff heavies to be unlimited dodge rolling. You are still limited to dodging until out of stam...then you aren't getting free stam back; You have to heavy for it. Same concept with S&B. Although I do agree DK's would benefit from it with a health missing based heal. Resto passive stam return you would be getting a lot of stam. But Really how much resources does a heavy restore? I don't believe its much; 3-4k at the high end?(without passive boosts)

Still not convinced its broken.

I always calculate the boosts into this discussion because they truely are powerful. Wearing Heavy Armor and Heavy Attacking with a resto staff is close to, if not over, 10k magicka back in a single pulse. When I tank with my PvE build with just the Sword and Board heavy attack I pretty much fully restore my entire, albeit small, stamina bar to full so I can go back to holding block and casting Puncture for a while more.

Might not seem like a lot on paper, but I'll bring into focus one more example.... werewolf. Thanks to Ferocious Roar their heavy attacks are 33% faster, and thanks to the Pursuit passive they restore 50% more resources. Werewolf's primary survivability tool is an incredibly expensive magicka ability, which forces werewolves to build tanky and with high magicka regeneration on a stamina build in order to actually survive. If you give them the ability to heavy attack and restore magicka.... the floodgates would be opened and werewolf would become a monster very few would be able to put down.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/ferocious-roar
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/pursuit

Or you could balance this out. Or ya know, make the dang werewolf’s heal scale off damage instead of health, and then it would be similar to a normal damage dealer lol.

Hescrow · January 2022

Sublegend wrote: »

With the current balance changes allowing more and more hybrid setups, the option to have all heavies restore both resources seems more appealing. With dagger mag dps creeping into the meta you are forced to heavy attack on your backbar staff; with stam allowing use of staves on backbar you are forced to heavy on front. Why not just both? Tanks would love it and DD's will likely just complain that we are encouraging the use of hybrid dps...

PVP you say?...well...who cares its all busted.

At a minimum it could be tied in with Off balance; Where heavy attacking while an enemy is off balance restores both.

I am totally agreed.
As a pvp player for all classes, I dont see any balance issue, in contrary it will up some lacks of diversity in build and not just use julianos and hunding only for hybrid players.

And it will boost roleplay and so immersion in the game.

Snow_White · January 2022

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I would love this, and feel like it’s the next logical step in the direction they seem to be taking the game in.

I think they should at least restore the higher of the 2 stats - i.e. the stat they are getting their damage from

Would be problematic on a tank. Currently, I can swap bars to restore the resource I need.

If it was a passive (like Tri-Focus) that I could opt out of, then it would be a non-issue.