If Bretons are one of the most magically gifted races...

Grandchamp1989 · July 2021

Why is the very core of their society centered around swords, heavy armor, knightly orders, kings and cooking from chefs with a french accent?

I could see why Redguards would be a knightly order, with their Sword Singer culture and scepticism towards magic..
But why are the wizard race playing knights?

This part confuse me a little bit. Any bright minds who can help me understand it?

NoireJin the Witchking · July 2021

Yes, they have Elven ancestry. Yes they are more inclined to magicka compared to the other human races, however it's deep in their ancestry. To the point were they're just human that /may/ be more inclined to magicka. Hence why most of them resort to human arms rather then being like high elves. So if a Breton empire was built, they'd be majority armed with swords/bows etc rather then being full magick orientated due to the rarity of the Magick affinity due to their ancient ancestry.

phermitgb · July 2021

well, for one thing, in ELDER SCROLLS, using magic doesn't preclude using armor and weapons - now, in ESO, there are some mechanical forced divisions that aren't as prevalent in single-player Elder scrolls titles, so...bit of a screwup there, but MMO-logic.

Now, as my limited understanding goes, *part* of the breton affinity for magic use comes from the fact that they still have a strong ayleid (ancient altmer) lineage, and that "magical" bloodline gives them a stronger affinity for magic than most of the other human "races" (? cultures?)

Keep in mind that both the altmer and the dunmer also have very strong magica affinity as well - it's just that their overall culture embraces those abilities more directly than breton culture does

or, to sum up - breton biology is *mostly* human, but there's a strong thread of ayleid hidden in there - so, their culture is also mostly non-magical, but sprinkled in with the culture, are the handful that have an unusually strong magical inclination, which ESO, being a ham-fisted-sometimes MMO, has just applied across the board to their racial passives

also, Kyojin mostly summed up my argument, because apparently he types faster than I do

Vevvev · July 2021

Bretons are known for their Spellswords and knights. It's about using magic to aid their combat capabilities than being completely reliant on it.

AcadianPaladin · July 2021

My Bosmer mages suspect it is the Breton's round ears that impede their magicks. . . .

VaranisArano · July 2021

Its because Daggerfall was a highly factional game, and that's the game that established most of the Breton lore. Culturally, they have a ton of noble houses and since they are based off of French medieval culture, naturally they have a lot of Knightly Orders to shuffle their second and third sons into along with various religious orders.

Daggerfall's joinable Knightly Orders: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Knightly_Orders

Also, consider that "Knights" in the TES games are not always pure warriors. By Morrowind, the class has Restoration and Emchant as minor skills. In Oblivion, they have Illusion as a minor skill. In terms of "warriors who can do a little magic," Bretons would have an edge, especially since most of the games don't have the same stamina/magicka divide as this game does. Think about Skyrim, where the Breton 50% magic resistance actually makes them excellent fighters in any battle against magic users.

spartaxoxo · July 2021

They are use their magic to enhance their martial prowess, blending their elven and human ancestry together. Like they might use a restoration spell to outlast enemies and quickly get allies back into the fight. Or they'll use their spell resistance to charge head-on into an enemy spellcaster.

MasterSpatula · July 2021

You might notice that the majority of Altmer you encounter aren't mages, either.

Cirantille · July 2021

Altmer & Dunmer are the most magically gifted races

Bretons are just better at magic compared to other humans

Amottica · July 2021

Granted, I am fairly new here but I do not see why everyone in a race has to be tied to the same type of NPC build. Also, Brettons are have-elf. They are half-human.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2021

Bretons mostly fight other Bretons.

Bretons have high magicka resistance.

If you're fighting against people with high magicka resistance the best way to hurt them is to stab them (i.e. use non-magical weapons).

If your enemies are trying to stab you it is best to wear heavy armour.

It's a simple logic

Reverb · July 2021

Breton are known for spellswords, knights, and infighting. They are not nearly as renown for magick aptitude as Altmer, Dunmer, or Khajiit

Grandchamp1989 · July 2021

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Bretons mostly fight other Bretons.

Bretons have high magicka resistance.

If you're fighting against people with high magicka resistance the best way to hurt them is to stab them (i.e. use non-magical weapons).

If your enemies are trying to stab you it is best to wear heavy armour.

It's a simple logic

This actually makes a ton of sense xD

Xarc · July 2021

I agree with OP.

and what about Reachmen ?

colossalvoids · July 2021

Zenimax online portrayal of most races can look strange to an elder scrolls players but it is what it is now, nords are funny drunkards and altmer are magical snobby farmers, I personally look at the game as a book so not always follow what I see to the letter, like ayleid structure can simply mean for zos "ancient elven" etc.

K9002 · July 2021

From a UESP interview with Matt Firor and Rich Lambert, conducted prior to Summerset chapter release:

Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart.

Majority of Bretons might not have significant elven ancestry, if any at all. Even at the end of Third Era, a lot of them were still living a withdrawn druid/witch life and it's been that way for them since Merethic Era. Do you think a single clan of the Altmer would go out of their way to breed with every peasant or every little savage tribe, especially in the harsher parts like Wrothgar, the Reach or the northern coast? Remember, Bretons were not fully conquered and enslaved by elves, the Direnni held influence mostly over the Iliac Bay. The most mixed part of Breton society is almost certainly their nobility, who also happen to be the kind of people who can afford sending their children to the various schools of magic. Interracial political marriages were already a thing in TES 2. The Direnni married into various influential families and by the end of Third Era they were so thoroughly integrated that they almost ceased to exist as a distinct dynasty. The only Direnni you get to meet in TES 2 is presented as a Breton.

To the contrary, the book about history of Daggerfall (which is only present in TES 2) clearly describes how Nords colonized not only Skyrim but also nearly all of High Rock, and how Bretons owe the earliest historical records to Nords. Now it depends how do you prioritize sources. According to Todd Howard, the events you witness in mainline games are always going to be closest to the truth, followed by in-game books, which in turn trump out of game sources. To me it seems that ESO iteration of High Rock is based on the first edition of Pocket Guide to the Empire, which was a booklet found in TES: Redguard box, so it's an OOG source. Additionally it's a piece of highly biased Imperial propaganda.

Ratzkifal · July 2021

The Knight class in Morrowind had Enchanting and Restoration as minor skills, so knights are not without magic; Crusaders have Destruction as a major skill; and Spellswords and Battlemages cover the remaining schools of magic.
All of these classes would fit neatly into the knightly orders and knowing your way around magic could be considered a chivalric ideal.
So even if ESO does a poor job of showing us the magical side of Bretons, that doesn't mean it could not be there after all.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2021

I don't think the Bretons were originally intended to be based off of French knights, btw. The distinct thing about the Bretons of France was in fact their Brythonic heritage - the p-Celtic ancestors of Wales, Brittainy, pre-Saxon low-land England and pre-Scottish Picts.

I think they were inspired by the idea of these Atlantic Celtic kingdoms had their identity survived the Germanic migrations. King Arthur stories were probably a big inspiration, especially those that recognised the inherent difference between Celtic Britain and Nordic Saxon.

So to someone writing under influence of 1990's ideas of mystical Celts and dark-ages Britain, it was easy to imagine this medieval, knightly, feudal society, but with that touch of otherworldly, fey character - touched, in someway, by the elves.

It also explains the conception of the Reachmen - when the lowland Britons were already building fortified towns and exploiting robust trade connections, and later further civilized by the Romans, their Pictish and Scottish brothers in the marginal harsh frontiers who had escaped this civilizing held on to Old Gods and conducted bloodthirsty raids on their lands from mountain fastnesses.

If these are the true inspirations, its easy to see how the Colovian militiaman or the Nordic farmer might view the Bretons as a mysterious and somewhat magical folk, always seemingly touched by fate even when not every single citizen is a flameball-hurling force from aetherius. Its a land of witch covens in hazel groves and misty primeval forests, with a strongly elven heritage. That's why its considered magical.

waterfairy · July 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

Bretons are known for their Spellswords and knights. It's about using magic to aid their combat capabilities than being completely reliant on it.

I was about to say this...check out the old races and classes from oblivion and earlier

VaranisArano · July 2021

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

I don't think the Bretons were originally intended to be based off of French knights, btw. The distinct thing about the Bretons of France was in fact their Brythonic heritage - the p-Celtic ancestors of Wales, Brittainy, pre-Saxon low-land England and pre-Scottish Picts.

I think they were inspired by the idea of these Atlantic Celtic kingdoms had their identity survived the Germanic migrations. King Arthur stories were probably a big inspiration, especially those that recognised the inherent difference between Celtic Britain and Nordic Saxon.

So to someone writing under influence of 1990's ideas of mystical Celts and dark-ages Britain, it was easy to imagine this medieval, knightly, feudal society, but with that touch of otherworldly, fey character - touched, in someway, by the elves.

It also explains the conception of the Reachmen - when the lowland Britons were already building fortified towns and exploiting robust trade connections, and later further civilized by the Romans, their Pictish and Scottish brothers in the marginal harsh frontiers who had escaped this civilizing held on to Old Gods and conducted bloodthirsty raids on their lands from mountain fastnesses.

If these are the true inspirations, its easy to see how the Colovian militiaman or the Nordic farmer might view the Bretons as a mysterious and somewhat magical folk, always seemingly touched by fate even when not every single citizen is a flameball-hurling force from aetherius. Its a land of witch covens in hazel groves and misty primeval forests, with a strongly elven heritage. That's why its considered magical.

The King Arthur and Charlemagne mythos had a huge impact on chivalry in the Middle Ages, including in France. It's one reason for the creation of chivalric orders like England's Order of the Garter or France's Order of the Star in the 1300s.

TES II Daggerfall features eight joinable Knightly Orders and eight joinable temples (many of whom have their own military arm.) As a society, 3rd Era Daggerfall has a lot in common with Medieval France and the proliferation of military and religious orders. We see that carried forward in later games, particularly in Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO where many of the Breton names are quite French.

Not that the Bretons can't also be Celtic-inspired with the Wyrd and the Reachmen areas, but the cities and culture of their home provinces pulls a lot of inspiration from medieval France in Daggerfall and ESO.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

The King Arthur and Charlemagne mythos had a huge impact on chivalry in the Middle Ages, including in France. It's one reason for the creation of chivalric orders like England's Order of the Garter or France's Order of the Star in the 1300s.

TES II Daggerfall features eight joinable Knightly Orders and eight joinable temples (many of whom have their own military arm.) As a society, 3rd Era Daggerfall has a lot in common with Medieval France and the proliferation of military and religious orders. We see that carried forward in later games, particularly in Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO where many of the Breton names are quite French.

Not that the Bretons can't also be Celtic-inspired with the Wyrd and the Reachmen areas, but the cities and culture of their home provinces pulls a lot of inspiration from medieval France in Daggerfall and ESO.

Interestingly, all of the Breton names from Daggerfall are very Old English- sounding, including all of the people and all of the High Rock town names. I definitely don't disagree that there's inspiration from Medieval French, but I think its only in later games (and especially in ESO) that French has become a major inspiration (if names are anything to go by).

I think identifying, and then capitalising on interesting aspects and the inspirations for the Bretons throughout the series offers an avenue for making the Bretons feel more engaging and unique, without compromising a core identity for them. It might be a bit provocative to say, but I think that French Knights is a bit of a dead-end concept, the wholesale adoption of which might hold significant blame in the "Bretons are boring" argument. In a world of Drow rip-offs, Roman rip-offs and Viking rip-offs, French Knights stand up just fine, but when you push the franchise into a world of tainted Chimer, Nibenese mystics forming nations with pragmatic, salt-of-the-earth, stoic Colovians, temple-worshiping catmen gypsy rogues and tree-licking mesoamerican lizardmen, it becomes a painfully awkward waste of space if you have to stick to such a boring, mundane concept.

Phanex · July 2021

Aint Bretons supposed to be the battlemages?

VaranisArano · July 2021

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The King Arthur and Charlemagne mythos had a huge impact on chivalry in the Middle Ages, including in France. It's one reason for the creation of chivalric orders like England's Order of the Garter or France's Order of the Star in the 1300s.

TES II Daggerfall features eight joinable Knightly Orders and eight joinable temples (many of whom have their own military arm.) As a society, 3rd Era Daggerfall has a lot in common with Medieval France and the proliferation of military and religious orders. We see that carried forward in later games, particularly in Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO where many of the Breton names are quite French.

Not that the Bretons can't also be Celtic-inspired with the Wyrd and the Reachmen areas, but the cities and culture of their home provinces pulls a lot of inspiration from medieval France in Daggerfall and ESO.

Interestingly, all of the Breton names from Daggerfall are very Old English- sounding, including all of the people and all of the High Rock town names. I definitely don't disagree that there's inspiration from Medieval French, but I think its only in later games (and especially in ESO) that French has become a major inspiration (if names are anything to go by).

I think identifying, and then capitalising on interesting aspects and the inspirations for the Bretons throughout the series offers an avenue for making the Bretons feel more engaging and unique, without compromising a core identity for them. It might be a bit provocative to say, but I think that French Knights is a bit of a dead-end concept, the wholesale adoption of which might hold significant blame in the "Bretons are boring" argument. In a world of Drow rip-offs, Roman rip-offs and Viking rip-offs, French Knights stand up just fine, but when you push the franchise into a world of tainted Chimer, Nibenese mystics forming nations with pragmatic, salt-of-the-earth, stoic Colovians, temple-worshiping catmen gypsy rogues and tree-licking mesoamerican lizardmen, it becomes a painfully awkward waste of space if you have to stick to such a boring, mundane concept.

Eh, it's all in how you take it. I mean, consider the Knight Templar...except they actually are the witches they are accused of being, making deals with Daedric Princes.

Chivalric orders don't have to be boring. We're starting to see a number of fun stories with them now that ZOS has largely moved on from their more generic takes on cultures in the base game.

What we're not getting is a lot of joinable, substantial factions to join. Imagine knightly orders given the same depth as some of the guilds or great houses. The closest thing we've gotten is the Dawnguard - they aren't boring.

A faction-heavy game in the style of Daggerfall or Morrowind could easily do them justice. ESO, which seems allergic to letting player choices matter, maybe not so much.

Recremen · July 2021

I would posit a bit of an iconoclastic explanation, which is that the linkage between """elven heritage""" and magic affinity is fake as ***, elves aren't even actually very good at magic naturally, and that the entire in-lore insistence to the contrary is just a longstanding cultural myth/propaganda intended to entrench and justify (now former) elven supremacy across the continent. This can be as difficult and contention a notion to challenge in game as it is in real life, but it's also equally backed by evidence, such as the preponderance of elves that are apparently magically illiterate. We would expect, for example, all the Altmer farmers laborers, merchants, etc. to have deeply integrated magic into their day-to-day lives, especially as it applies to their work, if there really was such a natural affinity... yet they don't. They appear, in fact, to completely favor physical toiling over so much as attempting to solve their problems with spellcraft. Stablemaster Semiral over in Rawl'kha, much as I love the guy, is just not going to be casting Telekinesis on his sweeping broom to ease his burdens any time soon. Perhaps, with the opportunity, time, and finances to study, he could become a mage, but he doesn't seem to have any of that. And maybe he wouldn't want to be anyway.

So it's probable that Bretons are not truly magically inclined, and that their love of knightly orders isn't so weird. Even the Altmer have their marines, after all. It's also likely that the devs just wanted to focus more on a militaristic story for the Breton zones than a wizardy one, and there's nothing in the lore that says they couldn't or shouldn't.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Eh, it's all in how you take it. I mean, consider the Knight Templar...except they actually are the witches they are accused of being, making deals with Daedric Princes.

Chivalric orders don't have to be boring. We're starting to see a number of fun stories with them now that ZOS has largely moved on from their more generic takes on cultures in the base game.

What we're not getting is a lot of joinable, substantial factions to join. Imagine knightly orders given the same depth as some of the guilds or great houses. The closest thing we've gotten is the Dawnguard - they aren't boring.

A faction-heavy game in the style of Daggerfall or Morrowind could easily do them justice. ESO, which seems allergic to letting player choices matter, maybe not so much.

Yeah, starting with a concept like "French Knights", and finding any interesting element to extrapolate from and capitalise on would work. I wish we saw something like that. I also agree that even in its blandest interpretation, Daggerfall offers some fantastic inspiration for compelling rivalry and internecine intrigue: Wayrest vs. Daggerfall, Knight Order vs. Knight Order, Temple vs. Temple.

Recremen wrote: »

I would posit a bit of an iconoclastic explanation, which is that the linkage between """elven heritage""" and magic affinity is fake as ***, elves aren't even actually very good at magic naturally, and that the entire in-lore insistence to the contrary is just a longstanding cultural myth/propaganda intended to entrench and justify (now former) elven supremacy across the continent. This can be as difficult and contention a notion to challenge in game as it is in real life, but it's also equally backed by evidence, such as the preponderance of elves that are apparently magically illiterate. We would expect, for example, all the Altmer farmers laborers, merchants, etc. to have deeply integrated magic into their day-to-day lives, especially as it applies to their work, if there really was such a natural affinity... yet they don't. They appear, in fact, to completely favor physical toiling over so much as attempting to solve their problems with spellcraft. Stablemaster Semiral over in Rawl'kha, much as I love the guy, is just not going to be casting Telekinesis on his sweeping broom to ease his burdens any time soon. Perhaps, with the opportunity, time, and finances to study, he could become a mage, but he doesn't seem to have any of that. And maybe he wouldn't want to be anyway.

So it's probable that Bretons are not truly magically inclined, and that their love of knightly orders isn't so weird. Even the Altmer have their marines, after all. It's also likely that the devs just wanted to focus more on a militaristic story for the Breton zones than a wizardy one, and there's nothing in the lore that says they couldn't or shouldn't.

Yep, even in a culture or race where a talent for magic is more statistically common, they aren't fighting wars with legions of fire-flinging mages.

Vetixio · July 2021

Reverb wrote: »

Breton are known for spellswords, knights, and infighting. They are not nearly as renown for magick aptitude as Altmer, Dunmer, or Khajiit

Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons are far more magically adept than Khajiits lol. Bretons may be innately skilled in magic but they have a history of being knights and lots of conflict between kings and infighting. Khajiits and Orcs are the least magically inclined races in TES games as they are both the only two races who have never had any magic skills bonuses in any core TES game.

kaushad · July 2021

Lets make one thing clear: Bretons have been designed as one of the two most magically gifted races throughout most of the franchise; they're not just good for men, they're good by Tamrielic standards.

Arena: One of the two mage races to Dark Elves' combat/magic and Argonian's magic/stealth. 1. Altmer/Bretons 2. Argonians/Dunmer
Daggerfall: As above in theory, but as recall, mechanical racial differences were limited to unique abilities like immunity to paralysis in practice.
Morrowind: Bretons had more starting points in spell casting skills and willpower than any other race with same high intelligence stats as Altmer. They also had +50% magicka. However, Altmer had +150% magicka, so while Bretons had higher early success rates at spell casting (you could fail to cast spells in TESIII), Altmer had more potential. Dunmer were a distant third, with one third of their starting skill points in magic, median intelligence and low willpower. Argonian had slightly fewer spell casting skill points, but the women had higher intelligence and willpower. Neither had additional magicka. 1. Altmer 2. Bretons 3. Dunmer 4. Argonians
Oblivion: Similar to Morrowind, but Altmer gained spell casting skill point to match Bretons, their magicka bonus became flat rather than multipliers and spell failures were eliminated. So Bretons lost almost every edge they had over Altmer. 1. Altmer 2. Bretons 3. Dunmer 4. Argonians
Skyrim: Lots of changes. Altmer had more magicka and and magika regeneration power and all their skill points were in magic (including enchanting). Bretons had a spell absorption power, alchemy (considered a stealth skill in Skyrim) instead Altmer's enchanting and speech. Dunmer gained a lot magic skills at the expense of almost all their combat skills bar light armor and gained sneak. So Bretons were still in 2nd place, but Dunmer were only 5 skill points and a semi relevant daily power behind. Imperials and Redguard gained magical skills. 1. Altmer 2. Bretons 3. Dunmer 4. Imperials 5. Argonians/Redguards

The trouble is Bretons culture has never been exposed as much as that of some of the other races. Even Daggerfall was set in High Rock and Hammerfell and the provinces had either the same or matching institutions, such as the guilds, knightly orders, government systems, temples and even witch covens. Whereas Morrowind introduced its unique Great Houses, the Tribunal Temple etc. This included House Telvanni. When you asked NPCs about Bretons, they talk about how they become great sorcerers, but just about nobody named any of them or explained where they learnt. Even Skyrim had Shalidor and the College of Winterhold, while Bretons had the Mages Guild, like everybody and witches, representing a backwater minority.

zvavi · July 2021

If Bretons are one of the most magically gifted races...

Orcs said hi.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2021

zvavi wrote: »

If Bretons are one of the most magically gifted races...

Orcs said hi.

That just highlights how little attention has been given to making mechanics work within the mythology of the IP they took on. If much care was given at launch, its only dwindled with time as the combat team has struggled to bring some sort of semblance of balance and build diversity and in that struggle, story and lore have been thrown under the bus. This is just the most egregious example of it so far.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2021

Phanex wrote: »

Aint Bretons supposed to be the battlemages?

Battlemage is both a combat class and a prestigious heirarchical position associated especially with the Nibenese. While the latter is essentially Imperial in nature, the combat class can be practised by anyone and is seen in multiple cultures/races in Tamriel.