Death Penalty in modern titles
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Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭You might find a little of the thrill you seek if you run scouting missions in PVP. I've have found them to be a rush because you have to travel across the countryside for like 15 minutes just to get to your destination. If you get killed in the process you go back to the poster boards camp. It's pretty horrible because you have to go try the same thing again. (Not like working in a group where someone can bring you back--if you die it's back to the mission boards!)
I was running a scouting mission a couple weeks ago and I ended up getting trapped between some rocks and a siege between the other two warring factions. It was pretty exciting because I had finished my mission but had some PvE stuff in the area and I thought I could do them too--if I could just get out of the mess I was in. The player siege party finally attacked the site I was scouting so me and my trusty horse made a run for it while they were busy! Except two of the other players saw me and broke away from what they were doing to chase an easy player kill that was a LONG way from home! I got killed, but it was quite a rush knowing that I was in trouble and trying to make a run for it!Edited by Giraffon on April 25, 2014 5:32PMGiraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!1 -
demendred✭✭✭✭You might find a little of the thrill you seek if you run scouting missions in PVP. I've have found them to be a rush because you have to travel across the countryside for like 15 minutes just to get to your destination. If you get killed in the process you go back to the poster boards camp. It's pretty horrible because you have to go try the same thing again.
I was running a scouting mission a couple weeks ago and I ended up getting trapped between some rocks and a siege between the other two warring factions. It was pretty exciting because I had finished my mission but had some PvE stuff in the area and I thought I could do them too--if I could just get out of the mess I was in. The player siege party finally attacked the site I was scouting so me and my trusty horse made a run for it while they were busy! Except two of the other players saw me and broke away from what they were doing to chase an easy player kill that was a LONG way from home! I got killed, but it was quite a rush knowing that I was in trouble and trying to make a run for it!
Haha, I couldn't agree more! I love the fact that at any moment, you could be over run by enemy players. Went on a lore book hunt, which required me to go by enemy lines. Stealthed myself and rested STAM by some trees. AT some points, I had to sneak in open area(North in Cyri) but managed to snag it. Couldn't get the sky shard behind the enemy gate. NPC sorcerers made sure of that.All good Nords goto Sto'Vo'Kor.0 -
Shimond✭✭✭✭It encourages players to take calculated risks, and the excitement that flows when you do is unparalleled. I've taken many risks in Runescape, Ultima Online, Darkfall, etc... even knowing that death had serious consequences. It simply made it more fun for me, but it also spoiled me. That level of thrill is unavailable in safe MMOs. Nothing comes even close, and unfortunately it is impossible to truly convey through words. You have to experience it to understand.
You have a very romanticized version of your experience in those games. A lot of my memories concerning UO do not revolve around the horrible death penalty (which was truly terrible - you could lose your house key and then get completely robbed) but around the people I met and the experiences I had in a living world (not dying in a living world).
I miss some aspects of UO, but losing everything when I died was not one of those things. I do not enjoy dying in any MMO. I do not require the game to tell me "you suck" when I die, I already do that myself.0 -
Getorix✭✭✭I think the mmo market is finally going to be completely saturated as far as "AAA appeal to everyone carebear" mmos go. Now maybe we will start seeing some AAA niche games, and hopefully one with a little more hardcore ruleset.
I do miss corpse runs in EQ, they sucked at the time but they made you think before you did something stupid.Edited by Getorix on April 25, 2014 7:27PM0 -
after just starting Dark Souls 2, every other game in the world feels like im playing games made by Disney. Im not saying all games need to be that difficult/unforgiving but gosh they could make an effort to stop treating players like they are babies. Especially in MMO's, sadly games are now designed to be non stopping and easy and casual. I wish the wide HUGE worlds of DaoC and EQ where you had to physically travel ages to get anywhere and if you meet something nasty on the way, you had to start all over, minus important stuff.
What I never understand is: back then we had huge and complicated games, full of details and mystery but very little tech or prettiness. So half the adventure was in our heads. Now with all this amazing tech our games have got simple, saccharine, easy and over reliant on structured progression. I love this game but would rather the ability to be able to run all through the whole game zones with no blocks and if I meet other faction guards I would meet much pain and hurt and death. Hell even have missions where we had to do dangerous stuff like that.0 -
rawne1980b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I think the mmo market is finally going to be completely saturated as far as "AAA appeal to everyone carebear" mmos go. Now maybe we will start seeing some AAA niche games, and hopefully one with a little more hardcore ruleset.
I do miss corpse runs in EQ, they sucked at the time but they made you think before you did something stupid.
There are some already out.
Darkfall and Mortal Online come to mind.
The population is dire though. People claim to want "hardcore" MMO's yet when one comes up they abandon ship the first time they lose everything after a death.
That said, I would like to thank all those in Darkfall that carried nice things for me to take when they died. I appreciated it.1 -
UnknownXV✭✭✭The problem is that the MMORPGs released who do cater to the hardcore crowd are never marketed properly and their budgets are always lacking. There is no polish or fidelity to these titles. Beyond anything, the game has to look and feel solid to hold onto players these days.
I think if a high budget AAA hardcore MMORPG was developed and marketed right, it could be successful.0 -
d0e1ow✭✭✭✭The problem is that the MMORPGs released who do cater to the hardcore crowd are never marketed properly and their budgets are always lacking. There is no polish or fidelity to these titles. Beyond anything, the game has to look and feel solid to hold onto players these days.
I think if a high budget AAA hardcore MMORPG was developed and marketed right, it could be successful.
I'm not so sure.
I played Hardcore in Diablo 3 exclusively. Most of my friends do not and they literally think I am insane for doing so. Their supposed reason? Lag. The risk of a disconnect. The risk of a de-sync.
People get angry at themselves when they screw up and die, they get insane when they die to a company though, or to their ISP pulling a ninja maintenance at 2 AM. (Mine has done this to me.)
Thing is, in a game like Diablo, it's relatively easy to bump yourself back to cap with a powerlevel, and really, the game is all about fun. It's just a grinder.
Perma-death or some kind of serious, major penalty like total gear loss in an MMO would be killer. Would I do it? Hells yeah.
Would most people? Absolutely not. Even if they, in theory, wanted to try it, the idea of the "server lag" or some such fabled nonsense would keep them from doing it. Even in D3 the Hardcore community is very small, and lots of people play that it being a Blizzard title with a new expansion out.
The forums are constantly having people whining about their computer crashing or them having some kind of technical issue that kills them. They scream for rollbacks, don't get them, then rage quit. It takes a very specific person, a hardcore person, to play Hardcore or to face harsh death penalties, especially in a hardcore time eater like an MMO.
Anyways, with today's games being so centered around seeing a storyline and getting to end-game so you can do group content it's just not fitting into the design anymore. Hindering players from reaching cap and attaining power doesn't factor into a smart choice for developers wanting people to "see the story" so they can then run off to burn out on raids.
"Her mystery was as essential to her as savagery was to Boethiah or treachery was to Molag Bal. To understand Nocturnal is to negate her, to pull back the curtains cloaking her realm of darkness." - Sigillah Parate "Invocation of Azura"1 -
Shimond✭✭✭✭Would most people? Absolutely not. Even if they, in theory, wanted to try it, the idea of the "server lag" or some such fabled nonsense would keep them from doing it. Even in D3 the Hardcore community is very small, and lots of people play that it being a Blizzard title with a new expansion out.
Yea it has nothing to do with the marketing and everything to do with it being incredibly niche, in reality. People might talk about wanting to do it but when it comes down to actually doing it, they are very few in number.1 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's see corpse run in EQ 10 15 mins of time wasted to running back, oooopppss as soon as I get there killed again. Corpse run again, I can't die again I will lose a level, (group chat)healer says I have to go.....logs off. Get to corpse mobs right there...oh no. It's so dark here.....got my corpse. Now where to go to regain experience? Healers gone, group broke up....crap...oh no did that mob see me....bammm you're dead. 'You lost a level'. Frac frac!! I have to go to work this sucks, I hate this game rage rage.....yep.
Heavy death penalties are fun....lol. Right can you sell me the Brooklyn bridge too?2 -
UnknownXV✭✭✭pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Let's see corpse run in EQ 10 15 mins of time wasted to running back, oooopppss as soon as I get there killed again. Corpse run again, I can't die again I will lose a level, (group chat)healer says I have to go.....logs off. Get to corpse mobs right there...oh no. It's so dark here.....got my corpse. Now where to go to regain experience? Healers gone, group broke up....crap...oh no did that mob see me....bammm you're dead. 'You lost a level'. Frac frac!! I have to go to work this sucks, I hate this game rage rage.....yep.
Heavy death penalties are fun....lol. Right can you sell me the Brooklyn bridge too?
And the moments prior to dying, were they not the most exciting you've ever experienced in a game? For me, they have been. Nothing has come even remotely close to fighting for my survival when I knew that death had real consequence.
Losing levels though, isn't my idea of risk. It just means you need to grind more. Losing gear, well you can prepare for that. If the game is designed properly, the best gear isn't that much better than average gear. So you don't have to risk "too" much to still be effective, but you do have the choice of using the best gear to get an edge but of course, risk more. It's all choices and thrill.1 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nothing stopping you from destroying all your gear when you revive at the Wayshrine. Or putting all your gear on sale for 1 gold at the Guild Store after you die. :-)1 -
I played a few games with this feature and it made you play above the level you thought you was at.
Runescape, UO and Mortal online and another one i forget its name but once your character was dead it was dead.
Perfect world was entertaining before it became massively P2W, in pvp you had a chance to randomly drop unbound items and in pve you lost exp.Edited by cubansyrusb16_ESO on April 26, 2014 2:07PM0 -
I played UO for far more years than I should have and I still think at it's height it was the best MMO ever. But even in UO they watered down the death penalty. I think it was with Age of Shadows that item insurance was introduced. This meant all you would really lose was your regs or gold which really is no different to incurring repair costs in ESO. Once regs free magery equipment was introduced there was not even the risk of losing your regs anymore.
I have mixed feelings about death penalties. It certainly made the game more exciting knowing there was the risk of losing everything, but it also put you off trying things that might be too difficult. Also, I'm not sure how much fun it was trying to hunt down the Ettin that had stolen your regs, only to realise you had forgotten to get replacement regs from the bank and so couldn't kill the Ettin anyway. And that sick feeling when you died at sea, realising that you had no chance of getting back to shore, resurrecting, getting to your bank for the spare boat key and back to your boat before your corpse vanished.
On balance I think the death penalty in ESO is a little light, but then in a game designed so that you will die a lot, harsh death penalties could get old pretty quick. A game should be fun and the way it has been designed certainly lets you get back to having fun ASAP.1 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Let's see corpse run in EQ 10 15 mins of time wasted to running back, oooopppss as soon as I get there killed again. Corpse run again, I can't die again I will lose a level, (group chat)healer says I have to go.....logs off. Get to corpse mobs right there...oh no. It's so dark here.....got my corpse. Now where to go to regain experience? Healers gone, group broke up....crap...oh no did that mob see me....bammm you're dead. 'You lost a level'. Frac frac!! I have to go to work this sucks, I hate this game rage rage.....yep.
Heavy death penalties are fun....lol. Right can you sell me the Brooklyn bridge too?
And the moments prior to dying, were they not the most exciting you've ever experienced in a game? For me, they have been. Nothing has come even remotely close to fighting for my survival when I knew that death had real consequence.
Losing levels though, isn't my idea of risk. It just means you need to grind more. Losing gear, well you can prepare for that. If the game is designed properly, the best gear isn't that much better than average gear. So you don't have to risk "too" much to still be effective, but you do have the choice of using the best gear to get an edge but of course, risk more. It's all choices and thrill.
well no it wasn't the most exciting moment I ever had is when I settled a disagreement with another player in a death match in old NWN and I beat him and his character was deleted. NWN on AOL when it cost you per hour to play a 2 D character, turn based pvp. Let me say this, I beta tested UO, I'm old what can I say.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's safe to say that de-leveling after a death or losing all my gear when I died are definitely not up there when it comes to my most enjoyable gaming experiences.0 -
LIQUID741✭✭✭Fear has been missing in MMO's for sometime now. Sadly, we are in the ME MMO period and I fear we will never see this again. Some of the best moments was "TRAIN TO ZONE" and them someone yelling to go LEFT!Solid-Nightblade of AD0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fear has been missing in MMO's for sometime now. Sadly, we are in the ME MMO period and I fear we will never see this again. Some of the best moments was "TRAIN TO ZONE" and them someone yelling to go LEFT!
You are forgetting that how people griefed other players, it wasn't fun at all to me.0 -
Lalai✭✭✭✭I think part of the problem has to do with how significant gear actually is in a game, and how hard it is to obtain. In a game with raid progression (as most games are) where the pretty stuff is fairly hard to get and tends to require many hours of investment for one piece.. not many are going to want to lose that.
I didn't play Ultima too long (I wasn't 18 at the time and my parents refused to pay for a sub, but I got to play with some friend's accounts), but my first MMO was Shadowbane, still lost anything in your inventory on death if someone looted your grave, but got to keep what was equipped. Gold and all was easy to come by though, as were runes most the time. So losing stuff was never that big of a deal. Games that tend to put an importance on rare items, and things that take hours to get.. losing those would be problematic.. heck people have been murdered in WoW over trades gone bad. Imagine if someone killed them and took their gear >>
I think the death penalty definitely targets a niche audience. That doesn't mean a game with it can't be successful. UO is still up and running, as is Eve. I just think the game has to be setup in a certain way to handle that, you can't just toss it in anywhere. It wouldn't fit ESO at all because that doesn't appear to be the audience they're aiming to attract.Edited by Lalai on April 26, 2014 10:43PMFisher extraordinaire!
Send me your worms, crawlers, guts, and insect parts.
Templar Healer
Daggerfall Covenant, NA1 -
Bazzakrak✭✭✭I am one of those people that would not mind seeing sort of penalty for death being implemented in the game.
Yes it can be harsh to experience it, but as some have mentioned, it does make you take calculated risks, and not perhaps just rush in headfirst swinging whatever hackmaster +12 sword you have currently equipped.
But they could have implemented some sort of small area run from the netherworld where we already escaped already, something that would take 2-5 minutes, where we would have to escape some small traps etc.
There are some games out there that has some hefty penalties for death that is for sure.
I can only brag about an account from 30th august 2006 that is still being kept going with GTC and training away at 160mill SP."I was there" - EVE Online. 10+ years and going strong.
This I can also nod recognizing towards, way way back in 1996 the death we had on the mud I played was loss of xp/lvls and possibility of loss of eq.This MUD I used to play, Nodeka, if you died by a mob, you lost your eq and had to run out and grab it again. If you didn't get it in time, your corpse vanished and your loot able to be looted by other players. There were players who were notorious for MPKing(Mob player kill) other players and taking and selling off their gear. If you got PKed, you just lost your health, magic, stam.
But there when the corpse dissolved the mobs would pick it up and we then had to get it back from them again, this time naked or in subpar eq from the bankbox
Also been in EQ, I liked the good old town of Kelethin where we could fall off and die there.I do miss corpse runs in EQ, they sucked at the time but they made you think before you did something stupid.
And then here is a small gift from me to @Getorix
https://youtube.com/watch?v=AKDkvy9sKuYWe're born, we live, we die. And along the way, you do the best with whatever crap you step in
I'm stranded all alone in the gas station of love, And I have to use the self-service pumps
Post Hoc Ergo Proptor Hoc
Motivation alone is not enough. If i had an idiot with me and i motivated him, then i will have a motivated idiot to do stuff
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crimsonBZD✭✭Excuse me if I have missed it, but I do not see a general or off-topic forum section to post this, so I'm going to post it here.
This thread is meant purely as a hypothetical discussion. To toss around ideals and discuss the general state of death penalties in recent MMORPGs. It is not a suggestion to implement what I will talk about into ESO. An MMORPG must be designed around it to function properly.
What am I referring to? Think back to the days of Ultima online and Runescape. Upon death, you were not given a helping hand up, or a small slap on the wrist. Upon death, you were wrenched forthwith from the depths of hell and cast back into the world with naught but a pair of rags to cover your bones. Your gear and inventory lay bare on your corpse wherever you perished in the world, for any fellow adventurer to wander upon to claim as his own. Sounds intense does it not? Thrilling to those who've experience the indirect consequences imbued in a system such as this. To most players now however, it is simply scary. I fear they will never understand how heightened and impactful every little event is when real danger is present in the world with genuine consequences. A simple hike to a neighboring village is suddenly an adrenaline fueled fight for survival. Note the thrilling part I was discussing prior.
Where did those games go? Why are there no modern MMORPG titles even contemplating such a concept? Are high budget games always going to try and appeal to the largest audience? And if so, will the lowest common denominator ever be willing to accept, perhaps even embrace, the idea of risk in combat? I ask this because frankly, I am bored of modern titles. They offer no excitement comparable to what I've had the pleasure of experiencing, and it makes me very sad.
Mmm, that's all I have to say for now. Feel free to shoot in your thoughts on the matter, if you think there's any hope for players like me who want a more difficult and perilous experience or if I am merely an antiquated relic of days long gone never to return...
As a former UO player, I feel you homie.
BUT... I don't think this should happen all open world like it did in UO.
Personally, I would like to see them open up the continent of Akaviri as a whole new type of game for ESO down the road. You choose to take your character there and THERE WILL BE an ordeal to get back out. Furthermore, there are no more alliances here. Open world PvPvE with INSANE world bosses that force players to group up, even though they may just decide to kill eachother afterwards.
Here, Death means you respawn at your last camp with nothing but Soul Shriven gear (I think they should let you place camps here to denote your spawn point and something similar to a save point that forces you to return there to stop playing safely)
but yeah, if you want a game that's Hardcore like that, check out DayZ.0 -
Getorix✭✭✭I wish for death penalties every time the Ritalin junky tween dps fresh out of wow I picked up in the group finder pulls the boss before the tank or healer enters the room.
And I loved that EQ video @Bazzakrak .0 -
RylukShouja✭✭✭I wish for death penalties every time the Ritalin junky tween dps fresh out of wow I picked up in the group finder pulls the boss before the tank or healer enters the room.
And I am thankful that all said idiot cost me was a little bit of gold. Harsh death penalties can be fun...but not when idiots/*** can train stacks of mobs on your head. It would also effectively kill all PuG dungeons in the lower levels. No one would run them unless they knew the group they were going with, so new players would find it hard/impossible to learn their roles properly.1 -
Mortelus✭✭✭Problem, only time I seem to die is from lag. I would be extremely pissed if I lagged out died and lost all my hard earned crafted gear.
In my mind, the best thing to do as a penalty for death is a gimp on stats in increments. First death, -10% stats for 5 mins etc... and also corpse run to reclaim xp, if you die on the way you lose the xp.
But don't let me lose my gear because I get a lag spike and die. Ridiculous....Who has time? But if we never take time how can we ever have time?0 -
SgtPepperUK✭✭✭I have mixed feelings about death penalties. It certainly made the game more exciting knowing there was the risk of losing everything, but it also put you off trying things that might be too difficult.
An agree for you
My first MMO was FFXI and, boy, was that punishing if you died.
I've since played MMOs where the death penalty hasn't been so extreme. Indeed, the other MMO I play these days besides ESO is FFXIV where, like ESO, the main loss is item wear.
Over the years I've often thought if there could ever be a penalty that would be more balanced and, in all honesty, I don't think there could.
A penalty that creates any real risk is, ultimately, more annoying than fun and, usually, time wasted for the player. It also leads to a very conservative approach for players as they often don't want to take the risk. Yes, it can be exciting but it can also leave a very sour taste.
OTOH the FFXIV/ESO approach can make death a triviality but, at least, doesn't hold the player back from trying stuff/exploring etc.
If I had to choose I would say a lighter penalty is better as games should be enjoyable at the end of the day, I think most of us play games to relax. It's also better for grouping as harsher penalties can cause a lot of ill-will in the event of a wipe.0 -
KanedaSyndrome✭✭✭✭I couldn't agree more, gave you an insightful mark though
I miss those games as well, I guess I'm getting that feeling a bit in EVE.
I'm sure those days will come back as the gaming ocmmunity matures (the average age of a gamer increases each year).KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
The Best Plans Require No Action0
