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Necromancer Colossus Duration
WrathOfInnos
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This discussion is going to be primarily from a trials point of view, but I will try to consider other aspects of the game. In the current 12 player group, Major Vulnerability from Necromancer is a crucial debuff, and keeping near 100% uptime is important. The problem is that it only lasts 15s, and the ultimate can only be used about once per minute (assuming ult gen of 3.75 per second). This means that 4 Necros are needed for an optimized group. 4 out of 12 is too much for one class IMO, ideally each of the 6 classes would fill about 1/6 or 2/12 spots. It is always difficult to find players that want to play Necro, especially since most players have been around long enough that their “main” character is one of the original 4 classes.
Now to look at the numbers of what Necromancer brings to the table. Their ultimate currently provides ~25% uptime on “10% damage taken”. I put that in quotes because it is additive with other debuffs (Minor Vuln, Engulfing Flames, Morag Tong, Martial Knowledge, Z’en’s Redress, Encratis Behemoth) and therefore gives a true DPS boost of about 8% while active. So 25% of 8% means 2% group DPS per Necromancer assuming timing and coordination is flawless.
Let’s compare that to other unique class buffs to allies. Sorcerer brings 6% Spell Crit through Minor Prophecy, resulting in 4-4.5% group DPS. Templar brings 10% Spell Damage, again typically adding 4-4.5% group DPS. In stamina groups these are mirrored by Dragonknight’s Minor Brutality and Nightblade’s Minor Savagery. Warden, like Necro, has no bias toward stam or mag composition, and provides the same boost to either. Fetcher/Swarm applies Minor Vulnerability for “5%” damage taken, or ~4% group DPS. The point here is that every other class gives roughly the same benefit, and it is double what Necro gives. Sure Necro’s is stackable, while other classes are unique (2 Templars isn’t any better for the group than 1), but this is really just causing more of a problem by obligating Necro stacking.
So what is the solution? I propose making Necromancer’s ultimate provide Major Vulnerability for 30s. This would do 2 important things:
- Make 2 Necros able to provide full uptime on the buff, so they could truly be 1/6 of a meta group (feel free to bring more if you want, they can use Meteor/Destro and be just as valuable as any other class at that point)
- Each Necro would then be contributing 8% DPS x 50% uptime, or 4% group DPS, just like all the other classes.
This change would have additional benefits as well, especially for less organized groups or console players without addons. By increasing the duration, and reducing the number of players involved in a colossus rotation, it would be much easier to coordinate timing. And if you’re off by 5s that’s much less of an issue when it’s 5/30 instead of 5/15.
In smaller groups, like for 4 man or even solo content, it would help Major Vuln uptimes significantly, since it was never reasonable to bring 3-4 Necros there.
As far as burst, this change would have little to no impact. By keeping the same damage cap of “10%” on Major Vuln, it wouldn’t help burn past any dungeon or trial mechanics. It also wouldn’t give any more burst in PVP (for bombing or ganks). The main difference against other players would be against tanky builds, where the extended duration could help wear them down over 30s. It would also be purgeable, so it may have no impact on PVP at all.
Edited by WrathOfInnos on June 29, 2021 5:32PM Now to look at the numbers of what Necromancer brings to the table. Their ultimate currently provides ~25% uptime on “10% damage taken”. I put that in quotes because it is additive with other debuffs (Minor Vuln, Engulfing Flames, Morag Tong, Martial Knowledge, Z’en’s Redress, Encratis Behemoth) and therefore gives a true DPS boost of about 8% while active. So 25% of 8% means 2% group DPS per Necromancer assuming timing and coordination is flawless.
Let’s compare that to other unique class buffs to allies. Sorcerer brings 6% Spell Crit through Minor Prophecy, resulting in 4-4.5% group DPS. Templar brings 10% Spell Damage, again typically adding 4-4.5% group DPS. In stamina groups these are mirrored by Dragonknight’s Minor Brutality and Nightblade’s Minor Savagery. Warden, like Necro, has no bias toward stam or mag composition, and provides the same boost to either. Fetcher/Swarm applies Minor Vulnerability for “5%” damage taken, or ~4% group DPS. The point here is that every other class gives roughly the same benefit, and it is double what Necro gives. Sure Necro’s is stackable, while other classes are unique (2 Templars isn’t any better for the group than 1), but this is really just causing more of a problem by obligating Necro stacking.
So what is the solution? I propose making Necromancer’s ultimate provide Major Vulnerability for 30s. This would do 2 important things:
- Make 2 Necros able to provide full uptime on the buff, so they could truly be 1/6 of a meta group (feel free to bring more if you want, they can use Meteor/Destro and be just as valuable as any other class at that point)
- Each Necro would then be contributing 8% DPS x 50% uptime, or 4% group DPS, just like all the other classes.
This change would have additional benefits as well, especially for less organized groups or console players without addons. By increasing the duration, and reducing the number of players involved in a colossus rotation, it would be much easier to coordinate timing. And if you’re off by 5s that’s much less of an issue when it’s 5/30 instead of 5/15.
In smaller groups, like for 4 man or even solo content, it would help Major Vuln uptimes significantly, since it was never reasonable to bring 3-4 Necros there.
As far as burst, this change would have little to no impact. By keeping the same damage cap of “10%” on Major Vuln, it wouldn’t help burn past any dungeon or trial mechanics. It also wouldn’t give any more burst in PVP (for bombing or ganks). The main difference against other players would be against tanky builds, where the extended duration could help wear them down over 30s. It would also be purgeable, so it may have no impact on PVP at all.
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Zalathorm✭✭✭✭ZOS has stated an intent to reduce necro stacking, but failed to achieve it through past changes.
I hope ZOS listens to this explanation because making the ult worse (shorter duration, less % increase, adding a cooldown, and later removing the cooldown) has NOT worked in the past. They've tried this multiple times.
Technically, the ult needs a buff in order to improve class diversity in trials. It's counter intuitive until you understand why necros are slotted and how many are needed. Longer duration debuff = less necros needed to maintain it = more options on what classes to bring.
I'll add that needing certain classes in a raid is healthy. I wish every class was modeled after the necro, where they brought something essential to the raid that no other class can bring.7 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, I think there has definitely been movement in the right direction. Necro stacking after Elsweyr release was much worse, when it gave 30% damage for 5-6s IIRC. Groups were running 7-8 Necros at that time. Adding the 20s cooldown helped that situation a lot, and during that time only 3 Necromancers were needed, but it also was counterintuitive, and led to completely wasted ultimates if groups were not perfectly coordinated and using addons to track this invisible cooldown.
I actually think getting rid of the cooldown entirely for the current 15s version was another positive change for usability of the skill, it just had the unintended consequence of requiring 4 Necros in a group vs the previous 3. The way to fix that is the keep it without a cooldown, and increase the debuff duration. I don’t believe it would be overpowered with 30s duration, after the changes to the Major/Minor system standardized it to 10% magnitude. Especially when you compare it to what other classes bring to a group, and if you consider the fact that a lot of priority targets won’t be alive for the full 30s (like Flesh Abominations in Rockgrove, or the waves of adds that Nahviintaas summons).Edited by WrathOfInnos on June 29, 2021 7:28PM3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Danel_Vadan wrote: »
Yes, I think most of us want this. To be honest, it has gotten a lot better over the years. Looking at it from a Magicka group, I'd say:
- Dragonknight, want 2, one tank for Stagger + Major Sorcery, one DPS for Z'en's + Engulfing Flames (technically one support build could do all of this, but it's difficult to play, restricts support sets, and I generally wouldn't recommend it)
- Sorcerer, want at least one support for Crystal Weapon, Minor Prophecy is free benefit, and can easily provide Minor Intellect as well, any additional DPS are desirable for Major Berserk on Storm Atronach
- Warden, technically one tank or healer could do Brittle, Toughness, Minor Intellect, Fetcher, and Frost Cloak, but in reality that's a long list in addition to their normal duties. There is definitely a benefit to splitting these between a Fetcher + Brittle DPS, and a support healer/tank for the defensive and sustain buffs.
All of the above are great. Now for the downsides:
- Templar, want at least one for Minor Sorcery, any role. More than one is discouraged.
- Nightblade, while valuable to stam compositions, they bring nothing to mag. Only useful for their individual DPS.
- Necromancer, stacking 4 is highly encouraged for Major Vuln. A Necro support is also very useful for Empower. Highly overrepresented in end game content.
Basically they just need to find a way to make having 2 nightblades valuable, bring the required Necros down to 2, and give Templar DPS and healer/tank each something unique so that one player can't fill both of those roles. One step at a time I guess.Edited by WrathOfInnos on June 29, 2021 11:12PM4 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is a lovely solution as it does no harm to the class while simultaneously reduces their demand.
I truly wish that the developers thought more like this.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Guys. 1 big misconception. Necro ult is for 14 seconds, not 15. At cast there is no vuln. A second after cast (1st colossi hit) vulnerability starts for 12 seconds. Second 2 (second hit) it is prolonged by a second to total of 13 seconds. Second 3 it is prolonged again for 1 second for a total of 14 seconds.
See here? First voln applied at second 2, and it wears off at second 16. 16-2=14.Edited by zvavi on June 30, 2021 5:49AM3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Guys. 1 big misconception. Necro ult is for 14 seconds, not 15. At cast there is no vuln. A second after cast (1st colossi hit) vulnerability starts for 12 seconds. Second 2 (second hit) it is prolonged by a second to total of 13 seconds. Second 3 it is prolonged again for 1 second for a total of 14 seconds.
See here? First voln applied at second 2, and it wears off at second 16. 16-2=14.
That is very interesting, so it's really 14s/60s = 23% Major Vuln uptime per Necro. Doesn't really change much though, maybe they're slightly less impactful for group DPS than I stated. Probably still about 2% DPS per Necro though, I made some broad generalizations and it could be 8.6% X 23% = 2% just as easily as 8.0% X 25% = 2%. Either way its roughly half of what other classes bring to a group from their core unique buff.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Guys. 1 big misconception. Necro ult is for 14 seconds, not 15. At cast there is no vuln. A second after cast (1st colossi hit) vulnerability starts for 12 seconds. Second 2 (second hit) it is prolonged by a second to total of 13 seconds. Second 3 it is prolonged again for 1 second for a total of 14 seconds.
See here? First voln applied at second 2, and it wears off at second 16. 16-2=14.
That is very interesting, so it's really 14s/60s = 23% Major Vuln uptime per Necro. Doesn't really change much though, maybe they're slightly less impactful for group DPS than I stated. Probably still about 2% DPS per Necro though, I made some broad generalizations and it could be 8.6% X 23% = 2% just as easily as 8.0% X 25% = 2%. Either way its roughly half of what other classes bring to a group from their core unique buff.
Ye, I know where the 15 seconds come from xd. Patch notes. I memed about it when the change came out. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/551036/colossus-being-14-seconds
It is amusing though that the misconception exists up till this day. Generally 15 sec Vs 14 sec doesn't matter that much, but it does mean that if 15 seconds would have been 2% that necro is giving only 1.8633%, not a big difference, but it is there. It still amuses me that from the buffs expected in group by zos standards (trial dummy) you will need 5 necros.Edited by zvavi on June 30, 2021 11:00AM2 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imho major vuln should be upped from 12 seconds to at least 18 seconds, so you will only need 3 necros for real 100% uptime (20 sec total each).Edited by zvavi on June 30, 2021 11:03AM0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭Imho major vuln should be upped from 12 seconds to at least 18 seconds, so you will only need 3 necros for real 100% uptime (20 sec total each).
I think aiming for two colossus necros is ideal.
Look at those other class specific buffs... You only need one of those classes to have max uptime. And those are on class passives (sorc, plar) or on a basic skill (fetcher, engulfing). Seems to me an ulti should be at least as valuable or more than a passive or basic class skill.
Also, needing two necros doesn't prevent other necros from still joining the trial. They just won't be colossus slaves and rostered as pure dps spec.0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Guys. 1 big misconception. Necro ult is for 14 seconds, not 15. At cast there is no vuln. A second after cast (1st colossi hit) vulnerability starts for 12 seconds. Second 2 (second hit) it is prolonged by a second to total of 13 seconds. Second 3 it is prolonged again for 1 second for a total of 14 seconds.
See here? First voln applied at second 2, and it wears off at second 16. 16-2=14.
That is very interesting, so it's really 14s/60s = 23% Major Vuln uptime per Necro. Doesn't really change much though, maybe they're slightly less impactful for group DPS than I stated. Probably still about 2% DPS per Necro though, I made some broad generalizations and it could be 8.6% X 23% = 2% just as easily as 8.0% X 25% = 2%. Either way its roughly half of what other classes bring to a group from their core unique buff.
I kind of just made this point, but based on the math you provided, the debuff seems lacking since it's attached to an ultimate.
Sorc and plar apply their group debuff via passive skills that require virtually no effort or coordination.
Warden and DK apply their group debuff via a class dot that they would already use in rotation. It has no real downtime and requires no real sacrifice.
As you noted, the colossus debuff is half the damage boost as the aforementioned skills, but is attached to an ultimate ability that needs to be cast at specific times in a colossus rotation. So the ulti has to be held until it's your turn to cast it. Also there is an opportunity cost because the cro could do more dps with destro ult. The other class specific buffs have no opportunity cost
Doesn't seem balanced in cost vs rewardEdited by Zalathorm on June 30, 2021 12:45PM3 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imho major vuln should be upped from 12 seconds to at least 18 seconds, so you will only need 3 necros for real 100% uptime (20 sec total each).
I think aiming for two colossus necros is ideal.
Look at those other class specific buffs... You only need one of those classes to have max uptime. And those are on class passives (sorc, plar) or on a basic skill (fetcher, engulfing). Seems to me an ulti should be at least as valuable or more than a passive or basic class skill.
Also, needing two necros doesn't prevent other necros from still joining the trial. They just won't be colossus slaves and rostered as pure dps spec.
I did say at least
But 28 seconds on tooltip is such an ugly number 
I say make it 30 seconds on tooltip for 32 seconds total to have more error margin for less experienced groups 1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imho major vuln should be upped from 12 seconds to at least 18 seconds, so you will only need 3 necros for real 100% uptime (20 sec total each).
I think aiming for two colossus necros is ideal.
Look at those other class specific buffs... You only need one of those classes to have max uptime. And those are on class passives (sorc, plar) or on a basic skill (fetcher, engulfing). Seems to me an ulti should be at least as valuable or more than a passive or basic class skill.
Also, needing two necros doesn't prevent other necros from still joining the trial. They just won't be colossus slaves and rostered as pure dps spec.
I did say at least But 28 seconds on tooltip is such an ugly number I say make it 30 seconds on tooltip for 32 seconds total to have more error margin for less experienced groups
Yeah, I think it would be nice if it lined up with something in the rotation. 30s seems good because most Necro rotations are based on 10s, around Orb, Unstable Wall, and Boneyard. Casting Colossus at the same point (such as after Boneyard, before Blastbones, every 6th rotation) would allow easy tracking without needing addons. And I don’t mean that everyone needs to count their rotations. Just coordinate the first one from each player (one at start, one 3 rotations later) and then when ult is ready again you know when to drop it.
Alternatively I could see 32s working well since you can use 2 casts of 16s Skeletal Archer/Arcanist as the timer for the 2nd Colossus. After that it would be used along with every 4th resummon.Edited by WrathOfInnos on June 30, 2021 4:07PM2 -
Bhaygon✭✭Why not just make the debuff more common? Bring a new suport set for stamina players maybe, something that works better with dps, like:
Each 10 consecutive (consecutive I mean no blocking or bashing, just light attack and skills) light attacks create a explosion that deal X damage and apply major vulnerability on all targets hit for 15 seconds. Hitting targets with major vulnerability cause you to deal X more damage.
You cant use this set to proc major vulnerability on the initial burn, so bring a necromancer for this, and most average groups will take a lot more time to kill bosses, they would benefit a lot from this.Edited by Bhaygon on July 3, 2021 2:48PM0 -
Milli_Rabbit✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Danel_Vadan wrote: »
Yes, I think most of us want this. To be honest, it has gotten a lot better over the years. Looking at it from a Magicka group, I'd say:
- Dragonknight, want 2, one tank for Stagger + Major Sorcery, one DPS for Z'en's + Engulfing Flames (technically one support build could do all of this, but it's difficult to play, restricts support sets, and I generally wouldn't recommend it)
- Sorcerer, want at least one support for Crystal Weapon, Minor Prophecy is free benefit, and can easily provide Minor Intellect as well, any additional DPS are desirable for Major Berserk on Storm Atronach
- Warden, technically one tank or healer could do Brittle, Toughness, Minor Intellect, Fetcher, and Frost Cloak, but in reality that's a long list in addition to their normal duties. There is definitely a benefit to splitting these between a Fetcher + Brittle DPS, and a support healer/tank for the defensive and sustain buffs.
All of the above are great. Now for the downsides:
- Templar, want at least one for Minor Sorcery, any role. More than one is discouraged.
- Nightblade, while valuable to stam compositions, they bring nothing to mag. Only useful for their individual DPS.
- Necromancer, stacking 4 is highly encouraged for Major Vuln. A Necro support is also very useful for Empower. Highly overrepresented in end game content.
Basically they just need to find a way to make having 2 nightblades valuable, bring the required Necros down to 2, and give Templar DPS and healer/tank each something unique so that one player can't fill both of those roles. One step at a time I guess.
Please make my NB tank worth using. I grew a DK and a Necro but I kind of enjoyed NB tanking. Make it highly rewarding but also hard as it is already one of the more challenging tank classes.0 -
Milli_Rabbit✭✭✭Why not just make the debuff more common? Bring a new suport set for stamina players maybe, something that works better with dps, like:
Each 10 consecutive light attacks create a explosion that deal X damage and apply major vulnerability on all targets hit for 15 seconds. Hitting targets with major vulnerability cause you to deal X more damage.
You cant use this set to proc major vulnerability on the initial burn, so bring a necromancer for this, and most average groups will take a lot more time to kill bosses, they would benefit a lot from this.
I think stamina needs fewer support sets, not more. Mag is preferred in trials currently because its easier to build support around it. You could build against it I guess.0 -
Bhaygon✭✭Most of the stamina suport sets are more like Tank sets rather than dps sets and magicka dps suport sets do require more than using one ability or one sinergy, it make it easier for a dps to use than a tank, maybe a healer sometimes but there are aways a lot of dps using. I dont see a lot of good suport set for stamina, maybe 3, and all can be used by a tank.
A new stamina set will eventualy come and will probably be just an average proc set, why not make it a useful set for raids, with some damage with it, not much, just some.Edited by Bhaygon on July 3, 2021 3:04AM1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've heard from a couple people that 30s could be a little too strong for PVP, especially 1v1 where some builds don't have easy access to purge. However, I think it's fairly easy for a player to avoid being hit by multiple smashes. Maybe it could apply a shorter duration of Major Vuln with the first tick, 10s, then the 2nd tick reapplies with 20s (19?) duration, and 3rd tick reapplies with 30s (28?) duration.2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That's a very elegant solution to the duration problem.
If you somehow manage to eat all three ticks of a Colossus in PvP you basically deserve the debuff (or, as is more likely, are already dead).1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I've heard from a couple people that 30s could be a little too strong for PVP, especially 1v1 where some builds don't have easy access to purge. However, I think it's fairly easy for a player to avoid being hit by multiple smashes. Maybe it could apply a shorter duration of Major Vuln with the first tick, 10s, then the 2nd tick reapplies with 20s (19?) duration, and 3rd tick reapplies with 30s (28?) duration.
That's a nice solution. Extending the buff by 10 sec whenever enemy is hit.2
