alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that several instances of dlc content is too difficult? Talking about vet dlc dungeons, vet dlc trials, dlc world bosses, and dlc dolmen like harrowstorms or dragons. What exactly is the fun in the level of challenge provided? I seriously don't understand where the fun is when the entire field is filled with ground aoes that one shot you and bosses spam cc. Is that "challenging"? Just lose control of your character and get one shot at every corner? "git gud" responses welcome, but I genuinely think that base content is more fun, e.g. vet dungeons and world boss events.

Btw, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be difficult content for the ones who enjoy it. I'm just expressing my opinion that if it takes 2-3h to clear a vet dlc dungeon it feels like a waste of time.

There is precious little difficult content in the game as it is. Whenever someone mentions overland content being too easy there is always someone saying "do vet content then" and yet here is someone complaining that content is too difficult...

Don't do the difficult content then, there is plenty of content that isn't as hard for you.

Or alternatively petition zos to actually give some tools beside external esologs and do more work performance wise as it creates inconsistencies and frustration.

By tools I mean at least some sort of combat metrics for yourself, so you can analyse your own performance and skills, test your choices etc, teach people what rotation is and why we have second ability bar and how to utilize it efficiently and not only for giving "second weapon option" if people want to learn it. Tutorials for more types of content, some Undaunted Academies that can be insanely good place to fit in-game tutorials with gameplay, making it a training ground and also a content by itself.

I do want a range of easier to very difficult content.

The curve is invisible to newer players though.

Queue for random dungeons levels 10-CP160: Base game, some challenges, some deaths, ultimately doable.

Queue for random dungeons CP300+ and get into a DLC with other newer players: WTF just happened? Half the time I can do a dungeon and half the time I can't!

Newer players don't understand the spike between base game content and DLC. A dungeon is a dungeon, and the random group finder the game encourages you to use frequently will not let you know in advance about that.

Remember, CP 300 is "new" now.

Athan1 wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that several instances of dlc content is too difficult? Talking about vet dlc dungeons, vet dlc trials, dlc world bosses, and dlc dolmen like harrowstorms or dragons. What exactly is the fun in the level of challenge provided? I seriously don't understand where the fun is when the entire field is filled with ground aoes that one shot you and bosses spam cc. Is that "challenging"? Just lose control of your character and get one shot at every corner? "git gud" responses welcome, but I genuinely think that base content is more fun, e.g. vet dungeons and world boss events.

Btw, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be difficult content for the ones who enjoy it. I'm just expressing my opinion that if it takes 2-3h to clear a vet dlc dungeon it feels like a waste of time.

This argument of "x is too easy" / "this too hard" has run forever. What we have is a game with a range of content to suit everyone from total noob to sweaty pro. The jumps in difficulty are sometimes a bit sudden (compare normal maelstrom with vet for example) but basically what it comes down to is there are two types of pve content in ESO: the stuff you can do (which is trivial) and the stuff you can't do (which is impossible). Seriously. Once you can do a mechanic, you can very quickly do it repeatably. Once you have a group who can all do it repeatably, the content becomes easy *for that particular group*. I kind of think VMOL is the perfect example. Go in there not understanding the twins, or with a new prog group where other people don't understand the twins, and it's impossible. Go back in with a group who've all cleared before and it's easy. In some ways I think that trial is the peak of ESO design.

Dropstitch wrote: »

I think most of the problem is the design. Personally I dislike learning things by rote. I dislike the repetitive mechanical metronome nature of rotations, and I certainly dislike having to learn the various phases of a boss fight and react to them like a robot, before resuming my interminable sequence of button pressing.

For this reason alone I am unlikely to do the harder DLC content.

I would say this is somewhat true. It is repetitive in some sense, however, there is a great deal of variety in how damage is done in real content. On a dummy, you are doing a perfect rotation or at least trying. Why? Because you are training to execute. However, the next step is learning to prioritize parts of that rotation in real content. Enemies move, they have mechanics that force you to move, targets change, mechanics force behavior. How you go about it is more up to you than a dummy parse. Is there a perfect solution to every trial? Im sure there is, but good luck getting 12 people to synchronize and make that happen. This is why I say learning rote is only partially true.

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that several instances of dlc content is too difficult? Talking about vet dlc dungeons, vet dlc trials, dlc world bosses, and dlc dolmen like harrowstorms or dragons. What exactly is the fun in the level of challenge provided? I seriously don't understand where the fun is when the entire field is filled with ground aoes that one shot you and bosses spam cc. Is that "challenging"? Just lose control of your character and get one shot at every corner? "git gud" responses welcome, but I genuinely think that base content is more fun, e.g. vet dungeons and world boss events.

Btw, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be difficult content for the ones who enjoy it. I'm just expressing my opinion that if it takes 2-3h to clear a vet dlc dungeon it feels like a waste of time.

I am on the other side of the scale, I enjoy more difficult content. It actually makes those bosses feel like they have a personality, it makes them memorable. Instead of the usual overland of "you used 2 spammables, have a trophy", I barely remember anything I went through there.

Story Bosses are only memorable for being such a let down after all the hype and build up.

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Hallothiel wrote: »

The change in difficulty between a normal dlc dungeon/trial and veteran is, frankly, ridiculous.

There should be an interim version with all the vet mechanics that can be used to learn them before doing the vet one.

And totally agree about the laziness of badly telegraphed one shots. I appreciate its a fight between the devs & players to stop people just burning through the mechs but can’t they be more inventive?!

Well also keep in mind that Base game dungeons are for a maximum of level 48-49 characters.

DLC dungeons are for Characters with higher CP. "Veterans" - you are supposed to play the easier versions, get better gear, and to get a feel of what the content involves before doing it on a higher difficulty.

So the issue I see is that players are not progressing though base game dungeons before trying out DLC dungeons - but rather level up ONLY through questing, not acquiring the skills for doing dungeons, and hopping right into harder content way out of their range of Skill.

The game does a poor job of getting players acclimated to dungeons.

I think players do a bad job of acclimating to dungeons. There is a very clear and gradual increase in difficulty among the various dungeons. However, if you jump ahead because you feel confident, you will quickly be knocked down. I see this frequently. Players get carried in base game vet HMs. Then, they want to get Symphony of Blades or Zaan. That is a massive difference in difficulty because they skipped a lot of content. In some sense, the game could just use a rating system for dungeon difficulty so players know what kind of jump they are making. On top of that though, players just need to make a decision: Learn to play or play something else. I know plenty who chose the latter. They would rather stick to overland stuff.

Thats part of the issue people have with vet DLC dungeons. There is a gradual increase within the reapective type, normal or veteran. The difference between normal and vet isn't as gradual when you compare the same dungeon in both modes. DoM for example, the veteran version is considerably harder. Ive only done normal DoM once, and if I remember correctly, the execute phase didnt have mechanics in it that are in the vet non-HM. Its not that they werent as punishing, they werent there at all. What was there barely resembles vet.

Its also not clear to newer players. Seasoned players, or vets if you will, can see it pretty clearly, but a fresh CP300 probably doesnt a clue whats about to happen when they click random vet and get tossed into vSG. CP300 is pretty easy to achieve these days and quickly. If there were anything in game that communicated the difficulty levels to a useful degree, I would agree that its on the players. Sometimes it is, but theres little in the game that tells you anything and there even fewer encounters that facilitate acclamation.

That being said, I enjoy vet DLCs quite a bit. I doubt very seriously that the OP is alone in their feelings though. They're probably my favorite content in the game. I enjoy trials as well, but dungeons a little more. I don't think that they'll ever be everyone's cup of tea. I think what gets most people is we tend to play the game in a hurry. We rush around. I've lost count of how many Zaan's runs Ive been on, but its easily over 100. Many just jump into for a quick smash and grab and become disgruntled when it isnt quick.

The group that I play with intentionally avoids guides and walk thrus, especially for the HMs. It becomes more of an adventure and less about running random normals x times daily for transmutes. That's the reason that I play.

Athan1 wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that several instances of dlc content is too difficult?

No.

Talking about vet dlc dungeons, vet dlc trials, dlc world bosses, and dlc dolmen like harrowstorms or dragons. What exactly is the fun in the level of challenge provided?

Some people are motivated by challenging content. You can't understand the fun in stuff that is challenging. Others can;t understand the fun in stuff that is too easy. Different strokes.

I seriously don't understand where the fun is when the entire field is filled with ground aoes that one shot you and bosses spam cc.

I can;t think of a boss in the game that spams CC. I would say that one shots are generally lazy mechanics. Though if they are clearly telegraphed, it's fine I guess.

Is that "challenging"?

I would agree that the developers have not yet found a satisfactory way to challenge characters can potentially have 30K health, unlimited resources management, and do tens of thousands of damage in a second. Though I don;t think you are describing the situation accurately.

It's not so much that I lose control of my character (I'm thinking of the two solo Arenas, Malestrom and Vateshran. The final boss in Maelstrom does have a flying skull attack that CCs, but it's telegraphed for at least 3 seconds and easily avoided. The Giant on the Ice flows will scream once in a while. I cant think of a Vateshran boss that CCs off the top of my head, but it;s been a long time since I did it so I might be forgetting). What ZOS typically does is ramp up the overall damage you take over time (usually in the form of additional enemies that spawn). Which means the content all comes down pretty much solely to how much damage you can do. It is thus easiest for precisely the people who don't need it to be easy (hardcore vets who have high DPS) and hardest/most challenging for the wrong people (those who aren;t hardcore).

"git gud" responses welcome, but I genuinely think that base content is more fun, e.g. vet dungeons and world boss events.

It's not so much that you should "git gud." Rather it's fine that there is content that is appealing to the sort of gameplay/difficulty that you prefer and other content that appeals to the tastes of other people. Which you seem to recognize in your final point.

Btw, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be difficult content for the ones who enjoy it. I'm just expressing my opinion that if it takes 2-3h to clear a vet dlc dungeon it feels like a waste of time.

.

In the 7 years I have been playing this game, the vast majority of experiences all kind of blend together and I can;t remember them precisely. The ones I remember clearly have almost always involved difficult content that took hours to clear because I had a genuine sense of accomplishment.

I'll give 3 examples.

2014 first vet Dragonstar Arena completion. This was legit difficult content for even the best players in the game. There weren't very many people on the leaderboard. The three other people I completed it with have not played the game since 2015, yet I remember all three vividly and can even recall what their voices sounded like. The vast majority of my other friends that quit, I don't even remember their names. It took us weeks of progression and we were all proud of the achievement: took screenshots and immediately slotted the "Boethia's Scythe" title.

Also 2014 first Vet Crypt of Hearts. I think the was the first "DLC" dungeon in that it came after the base game was out. Today, I suppose the biggest problem many people have is that they find the adds die too quickly and they lose the hardmode achievement. But when it first came out, it was really hard: it needed voice coms, the bone boss required precise mechanics, the penultimate boss is where no death achievements went to die, and the last boss needed a good tank and serious DPS to break his execute mechanic. We started that around 10 PM and I remember going to be around 4:00 AM. Rather than a waste of time, two of the people I ran with became more than just contacts on my list, but people who I genuinely bonded with. Neither play the game anymore, but I can still tell you one lives in Vancouver and the other moved to Australia to marry someone they met in ESO.

2015: First Sanctum Ophedia completion with my Dragonfall Covenant character (this was long before One Tamriel). I dont quite remember the first time I cleared Sanctum Ohpedia (it was on my AD) because I was picked up by one of the few groups who could clear the trial and it was not that difficult even though I did not know what I was doing (or ever had the mechanics explained to me). Sanctum was *really* hard back then and the experience of most groups was getting the Manitkora boss down to like 85% and then wiping. We had a hodgepodge group of about half who were "PvPers" and the other half who were decent players but no super duper experts. It was another progression thing that took multiple nights of wiping. But I still recall the satisfaction everyone had when we first beat the Mantikora. Again, it's the feeling of accomplishment, finally being able to overcome something that previously seemed unattainable or out of reach.

All of these instances were genuine achievements precisely because they were hard and took a coordinated effort by relative strangers who bonded over the experience. That is the magic of games and other sorts of competition, which is only possible when faced with something that is legitimately challenging. It's why that saying about it being about the journey rather than the destination exists and has meaning. These experiencing were precisely the opposite of a waste of time. Rather, these hours were the relative few of the thousands of hours I've played in ESO that I can recall with clarity, years after they happened.

If you look up a guy named skinnycheeks he has some builds for dps. The tank club for tanks. Idk what healers use, i just dont want them to let me die. Idk

Point is that you need to look up some builds and educate yourself on how to use it. Dont zone out doing dps and roll dodge or step out of aoe. If youre taking care of your end, find another group. Join a trials guild and ask for help. Most people are willing to help strangers in this game.

Education is key. I was hitting 55k with meta gear and a rotation from online. Copied a rotation from a trial guild instead and hit 68k. Then i hit 79k with a different rotation from a guild. All within a month. Ive got several vet trials under my belt, a few titles

I used to get scared doing vet dlc dungeons and would avoid them. Now they arent anything but boring if im not doing hard mode. When you challenge yourself, you may die a whole bunch, but once you get a clear on something thats mind numbing difficult you feel good about yourself.

I hope youll give the dlc dungeons and trials another chances.

I know you can do it!!!

Greetings all,

After removing and editing a few posts, this is a reminder to keep the discussion within the Community Rules moving forward. While disagreements are natural, Baiting is generally non-constructive and against the ESO Forum's Community Rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Put it this way,

I no longer do Veteran Dungeons for my daily random reward because if I do and a DLC dungeon pops, I'm better off quitting and taking the 15 min cooldown rather than try and pull my hair out running them with a PUG.


Says a lot, doesn't it?

I do think the vet trials are a bit ridiculous. The vet dungeons though are about the right difficultly to me. You don't have to be in the top 1% to even start trying and then cut that group in half due to stuff like schedules.

Perhaps if they weren't made assuming people have addons, I might feel differently. But it's pretty disheartening to know that they balance these things with PC add-ons in mind and that far, far more people can get this stuff down on PC than console because of that.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Vet DLC Dungeons and trials are the hardest content in the entire game... It's meant to be hard.

Dragon, Harrowstorms and World Bosses are meant to be taken down by large numbers of people in the overland as a group effort.

Yeah, about that... it makes sense as long as the area is new and fresh. It makes less sense when the area is old and fewer people visit it.

My "favorite" beef is the plant-boss-thing in Murkmire, which is just completely unsoloable, and even with a group is a grind to take down. Especially now that ever fewer people hang around there. He/it could do with a wee nerf to his healing. :-P