ThorianB wrote: »

It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.

In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.

Sephyr wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

The idea of using the undaunted keys to buy specific dungeon drops is frankly a stroke of genius. It encourages people to do all dungeons rather than just one specific dungeon over and over which promotes much more engaging gameplay.

Due to the nature of undaunted keys it also encourages players to beat the dungeons on the harder difficulties rather than just blasting through them at fast as possible on normal with 4 dd's. I think the nature of undaunted keys promotes a much more healthy system than encouraging players to blast through dungeons on normal for gear.

Since you can only get so many keys per day it encourages players to not get burned out due to grinding but rather introduces an incentive for regularly playing dungeons each day rather than burning out on them in a single session.

Since the introduction of the item set collection system, undaunted keys tend to the point of becoming useless since you can have every monster shoulder in your set collection. This would add a new much-needed use for them and encourage players who haven't done pledges in years to run them again. Which I think is great overall for the game. Pledges are a great system that encourages players to do every dungeon and in my opinion, should be encouraged as much as possible.

It would also introduce no additional server load/ storage requirement. It thematically fits and, in my opinion, would be a perfectly intuitive system.

@ZOS_RobGarrett Please consider it.

Honestly, it'd get more people running pledges outside of guilds which totally nullifies the whole argument that there'll be nobody in dungeons. Because there'd literally be no change other than an uptick of dailies being ran.

The ONLY thing I could see it hurting are the group farms, which honestly would be a good thing because that means people are in there for the content and not the piece of gear (those that you mention blasting through normals with 4 DDs).

It really is a no brainer.

Gods, forgive me for potentially start a flame war, but I SO loathe the "OMFG RUSH U NOOBS"-groups/individuals. Sometimes I just want to stay back and let them do the work (or die), while I sit in my chair and meditate on zen or something.

alberichtano wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

If one game forces you to spend a lot of time without any reward

The game forced you to do absolutely nothing.. You, yourself, have chosen to grind for a staff that is not NEEDED, and it also gave you plenty of rewards.. You've gotten gold, gear and experience to match the time you'veput into it

Is not needed. Really. Well then. Why don't you try doing the new raid with eleven people dressed in random overland stuff then. Have fun.

Why would they run random stuff when overland is very easy to get? For that matter if they can do the trial with the best available gear in the game they can also do it with crafted gear. Might take a bit longer and that is the only difference. Meaning unless you are looking to make the leader boards gear doesn't matter much.

The weapon is wanted not needed. That being what it is their is something to be said for providing some of what people want along with what they need.

sarahthes wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

Sounds about right when I farmed Medusa on console. Ran it ~40 times (vet and normal combined) solo, and about another 30 with a friend before getting my first lightning or inferno. However, I got like 6 or 7 more lightning and inferno staves within the next 4 runs or so after getting my first to drop (was farming a necklace for my friend). One run, I got 2x lightning staves and an inferno. RNG is RNG; it's definitely weighted, but still random as ever. I recently switched to PC, and haven't looked up any builds yet. Hoping Medusa is not still meta, the whole experience on console made me despise even setting foot in ARX, lol.

ThorianB wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.

In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.

That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.

In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.

Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.

ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.

"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.

You're just not making sense.... if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.

To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:

“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."

Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.

Diminish wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

Sounds about right when I farmed Medusa on console. Ran it ~40 times (vet and normal combined) solo, and about another 30 with a friend before getting my first lightning or inferno. However, I got like 6 or 7 more lightning and inferno staves within the next 4 runs or so after getting my first to drop (was farming a necklace for my friend). One run, I got 2x lightning staves and an inferno. RNG is RNG; it's definitely weighted, but still random as ever. I recently switched to PC, and haven't looked up any builds yet. Hoping Medusa is not still meta, the whole experience on console made me despise even setting foot in ARX, lol.

That is actually a point not to be forgotten. Farming a specific dungeon doesn't exactly endear it to you. And some are just a pain to begin with (*cough* city of ash two). Being able to do a variety of dungs to work for that piece you need is a lot more enjoyable. Sure, one could argue that it would be too easy to get hard dungeon pieces by doing easy dungeons, but that could easily be fixed by having these dungeon specific objects locked until you have done it at least once. And doing other dungs dozens of times to get all the points needed for a set will still be quite the effort.

Personally, on a side note, I think that ESO relies WAAAAAAAAAAAY too heavily on RNG. It gets old real quick. I like to know what I am working towards, rather than work hard and then have a 0.1% chance to get what I was hoping for. Maybe thats just me.

alberichtano wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

It does not

Did you watch the video? It maths out that you need to run an average of 78x to get the item you're farming if it is a weapon.

That seems a bit excessive.

Sounds about right when I farmed Medusa on console. Ran it ~40 times (vet and normal combined) solo, and about another 30 with a friend before getting my first lightning or inferno. However, I got like 6 or 7 more lightning and inferno staves within the next 4 runs or so after getting my first to drop (was farming a necklace for my friend). One run, I got 2x lightning staves and an inferno. RNG is RNG; it's definitely weighted, but still random as ever. I recently switched to PC, and haven't looked up any builds yet. Hoping Medusa is not still meta, the whole experience on console made me despise even setting foot in ARX, lol.

That is actually a point not to be forgotten. Farming a specific dungeon doesn't exactly endear it to you. And some are just a pain to begin with (*cough* city of ash two). Being able to do a variety of dungs to work for that piece you need is a lot more enjoyable. Sure, one could argue that it would be too easy to get hard dungeon pieces by doing easy dungeons, but that could easily be fixed by having these dungeon specific objects locked until you have done it at least once. And doing other dungs dozens of times to get all the points needed for a set will still be quite the effort.

Personally, on a side note, I think that ESO relies WAAAAAAAAAAAY too heavily on RNG. It gets old real quick. I like to know what I am working towards, rather than work hard and then have a 0.1% chance to get what I was hoping for. Maybe thats just me.

It's not just you. I really noticed that i strongly prefer a token-based system when i started palying Guild Wars 2 more. In that game, for anything combat-related (that i know of at least), there is a safe way to get it.

After my recent 75 runs of running Arx for a medusa inferno with a friend, I am 100% behind tokens. One poor soul I met along the way when they were doing pledge said they have done over 700 runs. This was apparently a serious answer and not a joke.

You should still have to earn those tokens, but it shouldn't work like keys either. Let us please just get the things we want to play with. Some people, like myself are theory crafters for off-meta and other stuff but we cant do that if it takes us an entire DLC period just to get one thing.

Benefits to a token system:
- Theory crafting options
- A lot less stress
- Far more value for time
- would aid new players and solo players (who only do GF) getting the items they need.
- Far more use of older sets (potentially)
- Everyone gets a BSW
- No more spamming chests frustration
- All types of players can get geared up much quicker so they can enjoy whatever the patch changes the game to at the time.

Cons:
- Group Finder search times might take a hit at some point.

That's about it. I cant really think of a negative that I can justifiably add to the one con I've put. Clearly the benefits out way the cons.

However I disagree with the use of undaunted keys to get weapons as "token" purchases. The reason being is not everyone has a huge haul of keys. Not only that but not everyone has the time to jump on 8+ characters and roll out pledge runs each day. They'll have time for maybe 1 or 2 characters. On top of that, it costs 5 keys per roll of an undaunted chest and then its a toss up between the two sets of that dungeon and then a toss up of the 3 types of Armor (I would throw in traits here but seeing as you can transmute...) all this means that people will pile through keys already just to get their desired shoulder pieces, so it would make things worse for the key system imo.

So I think a new currency should be awarded but it should be just for dungeon completions ON VET and not tied to the undaunted keys with no daily cap, especially if the cost per item will be 30 or more. So that people can run the dungeons as much as they want on their favourite characters without having to switch. This is obviously more work but.....it would be much better for dungeon finder imo. Because if its simply for any vet dungeon completions then more people will run the dungeons; probably put a CD on the reward of like 30 minutes per dungeon so it doesn't just end up as a fungal ghrotto farm lol

ThorianB wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.

In ESO, you can work forever and still don't necessarily get the thing you want. That is what I am annoyed by and that is the problem i think needs adressing.

That isn't true at all. A 1% chance is still a high chance of getting something in MMOs. Many MMOs you have to grind forever to get gear and then that gear becomes obsolete in the next Xpack. The gear in many other MMOs is also necessary to complete content at that level.

In ESO a certain set is not necessary to complete content. In fact you can complete all content in this game with crafted sets. So that is a huge difference right there between ESO and many other MMOs. Next sets don't lose relevance, outside of nerfs, for completing content which is another big difference.

Like many things in this game people complain about having to grind, grinding a specific piece for a specific set is 100% a choice to improve/ change your character and is not necessary to complete content. You CHOOSING to "perfect" your character SHOULD BE work, not a ride on the gravy train.

ESO is easy enough as it is, we don't need everything to be instant gratification.

"A 1% chance is still a high chance" - Tbh i stopped after that sentence because.... really? That is whataboutism, which again, I talked about in the video.

You're just not making sense....if the chance for an event is not 100%, there is a chance that it will not happen.

To quote Dennis Lindley, a Bayesian Statistician:

“One should always leave a little probability for the moon being made of green cheese; it can be as small as 1 in a million, but have it there since otherwise an army of astronauts returning with samples of the said cheese will leave you unmoved."

Putting that into the context of this debate is up to you.

Statistically speaking, in video games, a 1% chance of getting the item you want per try is high for end game content. And all sets can pretty much be considered end game in ESO. There is no reason we need a token system. Yes there is a chance that it won't happen. There are many chances that it won't happen. That is actually .... the point? It is a chance drop which are totally a thing in video games to add "filler" and randomness to the game. The point is you have to work for it. Why? Because it's part of gaming. We don't need everything in this game to be able to be bought with participation points which is basically what tokens are. I participated enough! Gimme my reward now!

Honestly too much grind just causes people to stop playing, and that's not good for the game at all. The balance needs to be right, and at the moment it's not.

I'm 100% fine with participation points being used to get gear. Grind with an endpoint is much more satisfying than grind with no end in sight.

I did 300+ runs of CoA 1 for a BSW inferno back in the day. I have done that dungeon a grand total of 4x in the 3 years since then. Completely burnt out on it with no desire to set foot in there ever again. Which is, in fact, very bad for the game. Because I'm surely not the only person who feels that way.

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

No, we do not need a token system this is not World of Warcraft.

Thank you for the insight, do you have a valid argument for why we do not need it aside from that (very arbitrary) comparison to WoW?

zelaminator wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

No, RNG in this game is simply broken. Maybe but accident, maybe intentionally (another gambling practice like crates), but pandemic is slowly going over and most casuals would probably quit a game that is having such practices, when instead of exploring and learning new stuff you are expected to be mindlessly grinding.

Well, they stuck around so far.. They'll probably endure this too The grind is there, sure, but it has been reduced massively through the sticker book

The sticker book did not reduce the grind the chances for getting an item are the same with and without it. The transmute system did because traits don't matter now, at least not as much.